Living in a land with no ground wire

The Southeast Asian countries (and maybe even India I imagine) have no ground. I've built my own (using copper pipes spaced in soil but it's a hassle) but for most circuits, you have to rely on UPS or a voltage regulator. The constant voltage surges here take a toll, even on your PC mobo (power supplies seem to fail every two years, even if 'new', I never had that problem in the West). Good 'workaround' is to use a laptop.

UPS advantages: it has a battery so your PC can 'gracefully' shut down.

UPS disadvantages: it has a battery, and here in the Philippines just before brownouts they get a huge over-voltage spike. After about six months of this, your UPS battery is ruined. It literally bulges like a burnt out capacitor.

Consequently, I've resigned myself to using voltage regulators, and I notice most businesses and hospitals use them rather than UPS. Unless you absolutely need UPS, you should avoid it.

BTW, a question for Paul: my automatic voltage regulator makes (it seems) a slight high pitched "scream" for a second or so, I think this is actually a feature not a bug. That is, when there's slight overvoltage it will make a sound (it also has a needle gauge). I think it's a feature, but knowing this place, where defective goods from round the world are dumped to be sold "as new", it could be a bug.

Also, I installed a Ground Fault Interrupt and it kept me from getting a nasty shock when I replaced a defective light bulb (very common) the other day. I just got a brief shock then the GFI kicked in. Nice.

RL

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 10:08:42 AM UTC+8, RayLopez99 wrote:
The Southeast Asian countries (and maybe even India I imagine) have no ground.

I should add that brownouts / blackouts are a weekly occurrence, typically about three times a week, lasting a few minutes, but during stormy weather up to an hour or three, and during typhoons up to six weeks, I kid you not, but usually a few days. Everybody has a cheap generator but they are very loud and smelly.

RL

On Fri, 1 Apr 2016 19:08:40 -0700 (PDT), RayLopez99
wrote:


you have to rely on UPS or a voltage regulator. The constant voltage
surges here take a toll, even on your PC mobo

-
Check out Gigabyte's press: they've a focus on building for dirty
power and otherwise adverse conditions. Or so they say;- I couldn't,
as drops, "brownouts" are the worst I get. Leaving the ASUS camp,
anyway, to two sturdy Gigabtye MBs was no pain and they've served me
well.

RayLopez99 wrote:
The Southeast Asian countries (and maybe even India I imagine)
have no ground. I've built my own (using copper pipes spaced in
soil but it's a hassle) but for most circuits, you have to rely
on UPS or a voltage regulator. The constant voltage surges here
take a toll, even on your PC mobo (power supplies seem to fail
every two years, even if 'new', I never had that problem in the
West). Good 'workaround' is to use a laptop.

UPS advantages: it has a battery so your PC can 'gracefully'
shut down.

UPS disadvantages: it has a battery, and here in the Philippines
just before brownouts they get a huge over-voltage spike. After
about six months of this, your UPS battery is ruined. It literally
bulges like a burnt out capacitor.

Consequently, I've resigned myself to using voltage regulators,
and I notice most businesses and hospitals use them rather than
UPS. Unless you absolutely need UPS, you should avoid it.

BTW, a question for Paul: my automatic voltage regulator makes
(it seems) a slight high pitched "scream" for a second or so, I think
this is actually a feature not a bug. That is, when there's slight
overvoltage it will make a sound (it also has a needle gauge). I
think it's a feature, but knowing this place, where defective goods
from round the world are dumped to be sold "as new", it could be a bug.

Also, I installed a Ground Fault Interrupt and it kept me from
getting a nasty shock when I replaced a defective light bulb (very
common) the other day. I just got a brief shock then the GFI kicked
in. Nice.

RL

A GFI only works, if you have a ground to measure against. So I
guess you have it wired to your copper pipe setup (safety ground
terminal) ?

The power company, would need to wire their neutral to earth at
some point. So the neutral is nominally around ground potential.
I bet you probably didn't even compare your neutral voltage
to your copper ground setup, before firing that thing up :-)

A high pitched scream, could be an inverter or switching power
circuit operating, perhaps working against the surge or something.
Some circuits use magnetics (transformers), and some of the sound
effects could be due to harmonics of whatever is doing the switching.

For your UPS, if I was replacing them frequently, I might go
for a "double conversion" type. In the hope that the input
side is better armored for trouble.

This is a relatively large double-conversion unit. It took
a while to find it, but it has a UVP relay on the front end.
If the input voltage goes too high, the input should disconnect
itself. None of the documentation is detailed enough to show
just how high an input voltage insult it can handle. The
manual mentions 280V (perhaps on nominal 220V input), but
the behavior of the unit isn't documented in a manner I like.
I've seen manuals like this before, where a chart shows the
behavior as a function of input. Since it has a UVP relay, I wouldn't
"expect the batteries to bulge" on this one.

http://www.tripplite.com/shared/tech...ual/932897.pdf

That one has an "Economy Mode" and an "Online Mode". If your
power is really dirty, leave it in Online Mode.

Paul

On Sat, 02 Apr 2016 06:19:29 -0400, Paul wrote in
part:
A GFI only works, if you have a ground to measure against.
A GFI or GFCI work by "residual-current"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

The current in the two know wires is measured and if not equal
the circuit trips. GFCI (old name GFI) work fine in the USA when a
ground wire is not available on the circuit in question.
Ungrounded receptacles must be labeled:
NO EQUIPMENT GROUND GFCI PROTECTED
by code in the USA.

They will also trip most conditions where there is a live to another
phase leak, but I don't know if they are rated for detecting
neutral to another phase or neutral to actual ground.
So I
guess you have it wired to your copper pipe setup (safety ground
terminal) ?

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 6:19:29 PM UTC+8, Paul wrote:
RayLopez99 wrote:
The Southeast Asian countries (and maybe even India I imagine)
have no ground. I've built my own (using copper pipes spaced in
soil but it's a hassle) but for most circuits, you have to rely
on UPS or a voltage regulator. The constant voltage surges here
take a toll, even on your PC mobo (power supplies seem to fail
every two years, even if 'new', I never had that problem in the
West). Good 'workaround' is to use a laptop.

UPS advantages: it has a battery so your PC can 'gracefully'
shut down.

UPS disadvantages: it has a battery, and here in the Philippines
just before brownouts they get a huge over-voltage spike. After
about six months of this, your UPS battery is ruined. It literally
bulges like a burnt out capacitor.

Consequently, I've resigned myself to using voltage regulators,
and I notice most businesses and hospitals use them rather than
UPS. Unless you absolutely need UPS, you should avoid it.

BTW, a question for Paul: my automatic voltage regulator makes
(it seems) a slight high pitched "scream" for a second or so, I think
this is actually a feature not a bug. That is, when there's slight
overvoltage it will make a sound (it also has a needle gauge). I
think it's a feature, but knowing this place, where defective goods
from round the world are dumped to be sold "as new", it could be a bug.

Also, I installed a Ground Fault Interrupt and it kept me from
getting a nasty shock when I replaced a defective light bulb (very
common) the other day. I just got a brief shock then the GFI kicked
in. Nice.

RL

A GFI only works, if you have a ground to measure against. So I
guess you have it wired to your copper pipe setup (safety ground
terminal) ?

The power company, would need to wire their neutral to earth at
some point. So the neutral is nominally around ground potential.
I bet you probably didn't even compare your neutral voltage
to your copper ground setup, before firing that thing up :-)

A high pitched scream, could be an inverter or switching power
circuit operating, perhaps working against the surge or something.
Some circuits use magnetics (transformers), and some of the sound
effects could be due to harmonics of whatever is doing the switching.

For your UPS, if I was replacing them frequently, I might go
for a "double conversion" type. In the hope that the input
side is better armored for trouble.

This is a relatively large double-conversion unit. It took
a while to find it, but it has a UVP relay on the front end.
If the input voltage goes too high, the input should disconnect
itself. None of the documentation is detailed enough to show
just how high an input voltage insult it can handle. The
manual mentions 280V (perhaps on nominal 220V input), but
the behavior of the unit isn't documented in a manner I like.
I've seen manuals like this before, where a chart shows the
behavior as a function of input. Since it has a UVP relay, I wouldn't
"expect the batteries to bulge" on this one.

http://www.tripplite.com/shared/tech...ual/932897.pdf

That one has an "Economy Mode" and an "Online Mode". If your
power is really dirty, leave it in Online Mode.

Paul

Hi Paul -

Read your answers, thanks. Small points:

Mark F is right on GFI. No need for a ground. It saved me the other day (slight shock before it tripped when I touched a faulty--this is common in the Philippines--light bulb that had a short in it).

The slight "scream" in the Automatic Voltage Regulator is a servo-motor I am told. Amazing. It's pretty cool that they use a slow-acting servo-motor (if this guy is correct) to adjust a potentiometer to keep voltage constant. Old fashioned and probably first generation technology but it works fine.

Thanks to Flasherly too, I'll check out that Mobo in the next PC I build.

Raining hard now...I expect a brownout any minute so best to hit the SEND key now.

RL

RayLopez99 wrote:

Hi Paul -

Read your answers, thanks. Small points:

Mark F is right on GFI. No need for a ground. It saved me the other day (slight shock before it tripped when I touched a faulty--this is common in the Philippines--light bulb that had a short in it).

The slight "scream" in the Automatic Voltage Regulator is a servo-motor I am told. Amazing. It's pretty cool that they use a slow-acting servo-motor (if this guy is correct) to adjust a potentiometer to keep voltage constant. Old fashioned and probably first generation technology but it works fine.

Thanks to Flasherly too, I'll check out that Mobo in the next PC I build.

Raining hard now...I expect a brownout any minute so best to hit the SEND key now.

RL

The autotransformer produces an output voltage that
corresponds to dial position. Although I doubt I'd want
to use one to counter grid voltage changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer

*******

I guess if I'd ever wired up a GFI, I'd know better.

We had one down at the cottage, and any time I'd put
100 foot of extension cord on the damn thing, it would
trip. And no, I wasn't getting a shock at the time. I
assumed it was some sort of ground difference or something.
I didn't waste time on it.

Paul

On Wednesday, April 6, 2016 at 12:11:35 AM UTC+8, Paul wrote:

The autotransformer produces an output voltage that
corresponds to dial position. Although I doubt I'd want
to use one to counter grid voltage changes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer

*******

Yes, I think you're onto something, since this clunky box is about the size of a child's lunchbox, and it has either 240 or 120 Voltage outputs. So I bet it's an autotransformer. It gets the job done, so far so good, I'm pleased. Before, for a 12 V outdoor light panel, I was blowing small glass fuses every two weeks when there was a major power surge, now, it's not happening.


I guess if I'd ever wired up a GFI, I'd know better.

We had one down at the cottage, and any time I'd put
100 foot of extension cord on the damn thing, it would
trip. And no, I wasn't getting a shock at the time. I
assumed it was some sort of ground difference or something.
I didn't waste time on it.


Yes, GFI is super sensitive, sometimes even using a cheap Chinese electric drill will trip it. It's easy to connect: two wires in, for +/- wires, and two wires out, for the same. Inline is the GFI and it works fine. Cost me about $25 which is a big sum in the PH but worth it, no big shocks (as I said, electric light bulbs are badly constructed, and/or the cheap sockets are also poorly constructed, so when the fail they give you a nasty shock if you're not using GFI, which most people here don't.)

RL

RayLopez99 wrote:

Yes, GFI is super sensitive, sometimes even using a cheap Chinese electric drill will trip it. It's easy to connect: two wires in, for +/- wires, and two wires out, for the same. Inline is the GFI and it works fine. Cost me about $25 which is a big sum in the PH but worth it, no big shocks (as I said, electric light bulbs are badly constructed, and/or the cheap sockets are also poorly constructed, so when the fail they give you a nasty shock if you're not using GFI, which most people here don't.)

RL

You guys are way above me with your discussions on electricity. To me
it's on or off. LOL

When you talk about GFI being super sensitive, that I can relate to.

Had an old fluorescent shop light ballast burn out. Tried to replace it
with the new style quick on fixture, and it trips the breaker every
time. Thought about taking out the GFI breaker, but decided against it.
Replacing(old style) ballasts cost more than the fixtures, so now it's
incandescent. If the LED ever get to the point of working in 0 degrees,
may try that.

Keep up your postings, great read.

mark

pheasant16 wrote:
RayLopez99 wrote:

Yes, GFI is super sensitive, sometimes even using a cheap Chinese
electric drill will trip it. It's easy to connect: two wires in, for
+/- wires, and two wires out, for the same. Inline is the GFI and it
works fine. Cost me about $25 which is a big sum in the PH but worth
it, no big shocks (as I said, electric light bulbs are badly
constructed, and/or the cheap sockets are also poorly constructed, so
when the fail they give you a nasty shock if you're not using GFI,
which most people here don't.)

RL

You guys are way above me with your discussions on electricity. To me
it's on or off. LOL

When you talk about GFI being super sensitive, that I can relate to.

Had an old fluorescent shop light ballast burn out. Tried to replace it
with the new style quick on fixture, and it trips the breaker every
time. Thought about taking out the GFI breaker, but decided against it.
Replacing(old style) ballasts cost more than the fixtures, so now it's
incandescent. If the LED ever get to the point of working in 0 degrees,
may try that.

Keep up your postings, great read.

mark

In a quick check, I couldn't find a starting temperature for LED.
I guess the industry for them, just isn't interested in honesty.

http://www.topbulb.com/blog/bulb-opt...-cold-climate/

CFL "Look for a minimum start temperature"
LED "they all have no problem coming on in very cold temperatures"

One thing you have to remember about compact fluorescent and
LED, is the base contains a switching power supply. The supply
is typically potted in rubber (it wasn't always like that).
And the power supply gives off heat when it operates.
So in theory, if the switching power supply "starts",
the LED will keep running in the cold room. The LED
element itself should be OK. No idea how the remote
phosphor responds with temperature.

And one other minor issue...

http://www.leapfroglighting.com/led-...transmissions/

I haven't had any problems with RF from LEDs here, but YMMV.

LED bulbs should not be used in sealed enclosures (globes
or any contraption with limited or zero airflow). If you do
pot lights, the top of the pot has to be open to the air
(so air can flow right past the bulb). I've seen some
recessed lighting, that offers no place for cooling
air to flow.

In fact, I fit all my LEDs here with additional heatsinks,
to reduce the temperature at the base. And I do that, to see if
I can actually get 25,000 hours from one :-) Some earlier
generations, had relatively high failure rates due
to the base blowing out. I'm sure the LED elements on
the failed ones, are all still functional. Just the power
part isn't going to last.

This sample provided for your comedic pleasure.
This is the overhead light in my computer room,
used when reading a book. The fins are electrically
isolated by nature of the body design, so you don't
get a shock off those.

http://s22.postimg.org/e4cfxnlw1/ledheat.jpg

It's getting harder and harder to fit those and
come up with solutions. Soon, I'm going to need
the Arctic two-component thermal epoxy to add fins.

OK, on this one, a genius at Globo put just
the right kind of "slits" in the metal housing
of the lamp. It was a slam dunk to add fins
to this one :-) Took no time at all. They don't
make these any more, either. This is a "20W
equivalent" lamp.

http://s15.postimg.org/nfcb2bty3/ledheat2.jpg

See the fun you can have ? :-) You don't know
what you're missing out on.

Paul