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Dvorak Likes Linux



 
 
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  #41  
Old March 20th 09, 01:27 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel
Jan Panteltje
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Posts: 166
Default MS has at least support from vendors, and does not use stupid modules that need kernel recompiles from source all the time.

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:45:32 -0700) it happened
(Nate Edel) wrote in :

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Jan Panteltje wrote:
As far as I have been able to try on other win systems, the soft that
comes with stuff I buy is not bad at all, one more reason to want it to
run. The windows scanner software that came with the Canon scanner I
have, is excellent, if not simply amazing, it came with a character
recognition suite too. There is a lot more. No driver for that scanner
in Linux as of last time I looked, forget about useful programs for it.


Did you even try SANE? Their support for recent Canon scanners isn't super,
but it's not awful:


Yes I know, but no support for the Canoscan 3000 I have.
A great scanner, last one that did not use LEDs ?


http://www.sane-project.org/cgi-bin/driver.pl?bus=usb
Several distros include this OOTB.

For that matter, there are a couple of free/open source OCR packages.


uche
I have tried 3, but long time ago. Compiling reading docs, bad results.
The Canon stuff just worked in Win 98, all I had to do was click,
and remember what icon it was on the desktop :-)
  #42  
Old March 20th 09, 05:48 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Sebastian Kaliszewski[_4_]
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Posts: 24
Default Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

Robert Myers wrote:
On Mar 18, 3:12 pm, Sebastian Kaliszewski
wrote:
Robert Myers wrote:
On Mar 18, 11:06 am, chrisv wrote:
Robert Myers wrote:
Linux really isn't a suitable general-purpose desktop system,
Err... For large segments of the market, it certainly is. And I
don't mean the "geek" segment. I mean those who want secure PC
functionality for the Internet and document handling.
Many people would be better off doing some and perhaps the most common
tasks from Linux. Many people would be better off it they *had* to
use Linux all the time. Neither of those statements makes Linux
suitable as a general purpose desktop operating system.

So how do you define a general purpose desktop operating system?

It doesn't matter very much how I define a general purpose desktop
operating system. It's how the market that defines it that matters.


So, how do you understand the market that defines it (IOW what is the
market what defines it, which part of the global market is the market you


If you're willing and able to cope with just *one* operating system,
what will it be?


According to my needs Windows, Mac-OS, Linux, Symbian, Windows CE,
etc... Now what is general purpose?

For most end users, Linux is not currently a
plausible answer to that question.


Linux seems adequate, for example, for SOHO use.

There will always be something for
which you need or wish you had a commercial OS.


As there are commercial Linux distrubutions, Linux is a commercial OS.


\SK
--
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang
--
http://www.tajga.org -- (some photos from my travels)
  #43  
Old March 20th 09, 06:04 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel
Sebastian Kaliszewski[_4_]
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Posts: 24
Default MS and Linux both have their plusses and minusses

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Jan Panteltje wrote:
Although my Canon A470 digital camera (for example) can be read as USB
mass device, the following applies: You cannot use any of the Canon
utilities that come with the camera as it has no Linux support.
I've yot to find camera specific bundled software which is not total
crap.

Digital Photo Pro which comes with the EOS Cameras for doing RAW conversions
isn't crap. It's not as good as Adobe's Camera Raw plugin for Photoshop,
but it's significantly better than any of the free alternatives.


Exactly.

And it is the same story for every other thing:
For my Epson printer there is a nice layout program for directly printing color to DVDs.
It is very easy to use, fast, and crashes in Wine emulator, does not do I/O
to the printer either in Wine, and Gimp does not have its features,
and Gimp is a pain to use most of the time.


Recent versions are (finally) quite useable. They (Gimp authors) finally
realised that when peole select a part of picture they might want to
finetune that selection later.

Then again, I'm fairly sure it runs under Wine or at least Crossover, if you
absolutely have to use it.


Not one single driver I have tried to install in wine works _NOT ONE_.


If you bothered to read the documentaiton you would know that Wine is
not for drivers

Same for running virtualiser software, it is annoying slow,


Well It's not, unless you need to play games. I do that most of the time
(as I've to develop Windows software I need Windows; but I also develop
*unix software, so I need *nix as well).

dual boot Linux plus
windows is the only option.


It's bad option, because you temporarily loose the features of the other
OS (the one turned off).

[...]
So, we have to see the reality of it.
Linux has its nice, nice for servers, oh, and I run a mail server on it too,
camera server (can see my house fro anywhere in the world, ssh connection,,m
telnetd, fully remote controlled, can control my house lights, even the colors (LED
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/col_pic/index.html
BUT ONLY BECAUSE I WROTE ALL THAT STUFF MYSELF

control the heating, anything... home automation works here.
My own designs.
But if I go out and buy something, I need MS windows so I can work with it.
Because of that Linux is only for nerds.


Or for pepole who don't need all that gadgets, and have limited use of
computer: email, web, word processing, simple photo editing -- for
example my Mother uses Linux machine. The plus is that she is safe 99.9%
of viruses and trojans

You got to be realistic, some people seem sort of blind to that.
Anybody who has any real experience will know the plusses and minus of both MS software
and Linux.
Both have their goods, and you need BOTH, or at least MS if you want to go with the masses.


Agreed.

The way Linux works now it cannot possibly be supported by vendors of stuff that
interacts with PCs.
So they don't.


So how for example HP, does support it?

\SK
--
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang
--
http://www.tajga.org -- (some photos from my travels)
  #44  
Old March 20th 09, 06:28 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel
Sebastian Kaliszewski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Dvorak Likes Linux

Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 18 Mar 2009 20:19:24 +0100) it happened Sebastian
Kaliszewski wrote in
:

Wrong again.
Although my Canon A470 digital camera (for example) can be read as USB mass device, the following applies:
You cannot use any of the Canon utilities that come with the camera as it has no Linux support.

I've yot to find camera specific bundled software which is not total
crap. And there usually is not camera specific stuff like Acrobat Reader...


As far as I have been able to try on other win systems, the soft that
comes with stuff I buy is not bad at all, one more reason to want it to run.
The windows scanner software that came with the Canon scanner I have, is excellent,
if not simply amazing, it came with a character recognition suite too.
There is a lot more.
No driver for that scanner in Linux as of last time I looked, forget about useful programs for it.



Canon still makes the best cameras, so why settle for an inferior product.

Simply use good software with that good camera, not some bundled crap.


You seem to have some negative experiences with bundled software, my experience is that it does most of what
I need.
For example I have several MS windows examples of video editing suits that came with cameras
and other related video stuff.
For free, Expensive if you needed to buy them separately.



You cannot even register your camera online with Canon, as that requires their win software package.

[...]
We have to see the reality of things, Linux is hopeless for vendors.
And it is hopless for the user who just wants to actually do things like editing a video,
something that comes standard with Xp and Mac to I think.

What comes standard is crap. What is not crap costs $$$


That is not correct.



And that are only a _few_ of the minus points of Linux.

And I should know, I have been using it since version .98, written almost every application for it
you can imagine, including video processing, _myself_, so take it from an expert.

Do I have to write the f*cking editor too?
Do I have to write EVERYTHING I need?
If that is your idea of user friendly go use Linux.

Nonsense.

There are good editors for it, there are picture processing soft for it,
there is video editing software for it as well etc.


Yes, I WROTE some of the video processing software,


Yes, I know. I know, you wrote a lot of Linux sofware...

[...]
And still to this day, anytime I buy a gadget in Linux it does not have support, no drivers,,
and the things you need do not exists.


Oh maybe I was a bit more lucky than you. And unlucky in a different
way. The software which ships with my Nikon film scanner was a real
unfinished crap (horrible ui, menus that do not work, etc). OTOH my
HP-printer-scanner-fax-copier combo was easier to setup in Linux (it was
just plug-in and click OK on some dialogs) that in windows (which
somehow made some troubles (pluging, unpluging) and installed some
systray crap eating up resources.



The module system as used in the kernel makes it impossible to write universal binary solutions,
the Linux folks have gone nuts and use modules for everything even for printing 'Hello world'.
I just did read a tutorial for the new kernel module API that uses printing 'Hello world' as an example.
Forgetting that that should be done in user-space, and not explaining that you should only use modules
if nothing else goes, so the requirements for that, it is a mess. and also the reluctance of some kernel
developers to accept closed source (binary) solutions from vendors, scares vendors way.


Well, some guys like Atheros guys or Fabrice Bellard found a way around
that, by I agree it's not easy, and there is no binary compatibility by
design.

"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang


I want to day: Do not ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidly.
And that goes for Linux.
Have you seen the new Linux logo? As of today it is the ugliest thing .. I have a T-shirt with the old one,
will stay way clear of this.

In fact I ordered an OEM version of windows Xp today, just received an email it is in the mail.
An next I will install this on some harddisk, and download that free Visual C compiler from the MS site.
Not that I do not know how to use it, used it at my job :-)
And then we will see.
I have hundreds of little programs here at home I want to try on that Xp, some games too.

Linux, it is all over.
I will use it where it is convenient, but for the masses it is not.


Well, I found it to be good for simple desktop use, like for Internet
enabled SOHO tasks. The main advantage being that it's not target for
99.9% of malware.

I have it in my Linksys router, rewrote that so it can be used as webserver from an SDcard, very useful for embedded.
MIPS processor.
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/wap54...html#wapserver


rgds
\SK
--
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" -- L. Lang
--
http://www.tajga.org -- (some photos from my travels)
  #45  
Old March 20th 09, 06:52 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Robert Myers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 606
Default Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

On Mar 20, 12:48*pm, Sebastian Kaliszewski
wrote:
Robert Myers wrote:
On Mar 18, 3:12 pm, Sebastian Kaliszewski
wrote:



So, how do you understand the market that defines it (IOW what is the
market what defines it, which part of the global market is the market you

The implied context of this conversation is the people who define the
conversation by posting and the cultures they live in.

Quibbling over context, words, and meaning is a really tiresome
activity, and I don't propose to get involved in such an exchange.



If you're willing and able to cope with just *one* operating system,
what will it be?


According to my needs Windows, Mac-OS, Linux, Symbian, Windows CE,
etc... Now what is general purpose?

You're not a typical user.

*For most end users, Linux is not currently a
plausible answer to that question.


Linux seems adequate, for example, for SOHO use.

There's always something. It used to be Tru-Type fonts and SMB
networking. Last I looked, even to get the claimed functionality out
of Ubuntu (to look at YouTube, for example), you had to use a codecs
that was of questionable legality. There are usually ways around
these issues, but you have to be willing to hack and fiddle.

Microsoft is forever messing around with SMB to make it hard for Samba
and those who want to make Samba transparent. I still haven't gotten
SMB networking to Linux to work after the most recent Microsoft
"Service Packs." I'm sure I'll wind up learning much more than I want
to know about Microsoft's latest authentication kinks.

Your MS-Word documents and presentations come out looking funny in
Star Office. I can live with that, but many people can't. If you
have to hack and fiddle or if the OS won't do what people generally
expect it to do, then it's not a general-purpose OS. Think how
important it is to Apple that Microsoft continue to support Office on
the Mac.

These limitations are all a result of Microsoft monopolistic business
practices? For the most part, yes. What do you plan on doing about
it?

Robert.
  #46  
Old March 20th 09, 07:48 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel
Jan Panteltje
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default MS and Linux both have their plusses and minusses

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:04:06 +0100) it happened Sebastian
Kaliszewski wrote in
:

Then again, I'm fairly sure it runs under Wine or at least Crossover, if you
absolutely have to use it.


Not one single driver I have tried to install in wine works _NOT ONE_.


If you bothered to read the documentaiton you would know that Wine is
not for drivers


Yea, but you must be aware that if you want to install for example
a DVD label layout program, that you also want to send your work to the
printer, _without_ having to copy it to a win partition and doing a reboot.
Some programs simply will not install (wizard will abort) if the right driver
is not found.


Same for running virtualiser software, it is annoying slow,


Well It's not, unless you need to play games. I do that most of the time
(as I've to develop Windows software I need Windows; but I also develop
*unix software, so I need *nix as well).

dual boot Linux plus
windows is the only option.


It's bad option, because you temporarily loose the features of the other
OS (the one turned off).


Well, from Linux I can see my win partitions, now I have Win98 on hda1,
and win Xp sits now on hda2, hdb is Linux backup, hdc is the DVD drive,
hdd is also Linux (grml modified, a sort of debian)), and where I am now.

Normally I can copy what I need to win98, maybe it will work in Xp
too, have not tried yet, have it mounted now.
The server http://panteltje.com now runs from the eeePC 100%.
Will go back to the real server tonight.
NAT translation :-)


Or for pepole who don't need all that gadgets, and have limited use of
computer: email, web, word processing, simple photo editing -- for
example my Mother uses Linux machine. The plus is that she is safe 99.9%
of viruses and trojans


Sure, that is why I bought that eeePC, and I have a USB GPRS/HDSPA modem,
wit ha Vodafone subscription, so I can use it anywhere in the world.
I just got ****ed it did not want to work with my Nokia bluetooth headset in Skype.
You know, those who claim 'so stable' about _Linux_, for those this:

I did some research (hell the bluetooth spec is free, is is !ONLY! a 1475 pages pdf
full of technical stuff, so I was at about page 500... when I had enough
for that day... ran some test programs to see what happened,
the bluez (Linux bluetooth) 'make test;' does not even work (bad bad bad, it does compile,
but one part does not get made, so nothing in the test suite runs), anyways, not one (latest) Alsa
utility like aplay or arecord or whatever, also not mplayer, wanted to send sound to my headset,
so I modified one of my own programs (my thoughts: why does not the Alsa headsetd give some
error message, as data seems to be send (with hcidump -X), but the program hangs, strange).
So anyways ended up looking at the code of headsetd, in latest Alsa, and in the routine I suspected,
the code reads:
From ...bluetooth/alsa/plugz/alsa-plugins/headsetd/daemon.c:
quote verbatim
/* Getting file descriptors to poll on */
poll_nfds = 0;
for(i = 0; i DAEMON_NUM_SOCKS; i++) {
#ifndef NDEBUG
/* This may indicate an error, but not always - as such, we disable this
warning for release */
if(hspd_sockets[i] == 0 && s-pollEvents[i] != 0) {
fprintf(stderr, "WARNING: polling on non existent socket idx=%d\n", i);
}
#endif
end quote

NOW THOSE WHO WROTE THAT AND CLAIM THE 'A' IN ALSA STANDS FOR 'ADVANCED' WHY NOT TEST A RETURN VALUE
HOW CAN YOU RELEASE THIS, IT CAUSES A DMA ERROR AND CRASHES THE SERVER!
So that is all crap about Linux stability, it is NOT stable.

No problem? The application starts using a random value for a file descriptor, and does not
warn or abort, the calling app keeps sending to the socket, memory gets possibly randomly overwritten,
including variables, what not.
When I found that (and it likely is not the only thing) I stopped looking at the code and ordered Xp.
One should _always_ check return values.
There may be more to it, and I am weary of mailing list with thousands of questions,
had bad experience reporting a bug to the kernel developers once.. to the DVB driver group too.
Too much ego there.


The way Linux works now it cannot possibly be supported by vendors of stuff that
interacts with PCs.
So they don't.


So how for example HP, does support it?


I dunno, I have 2 Epson printers, Epson or somebody wrote the 'ijs???' server, would have to look it up.
The output in win seems a bit better though, with Epsons own utilities.
And that is what we want, make nice things, yes? Not just use Linux for the sake of using Linux.
  #47  
Old March 20th 09, 07:52 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel
Tom Lake
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Posts: 418
Default MS and Linux both have their plusses and minusses

Not one single driver I have tried to install in wine works _NOT ONE_.
Same for running virtualiser software, it is annoying slow, dual boot Linux plus
windows is the only option.
A problem if you have the same PC up as a server (can not just go offline).
So you need 2 computers, one for Linux and one for whatever MS software, or maybe
even 3.


Why would you use a server to run apps? A server should just be a server and
not used as a general PC anyway.

Tom Lake

  #48  
Old March 20th 09, 09:58 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel
Jan Panteltje
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default MS and Linux both have their plusses and minusses

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:52:38 -0400) it happened "Tom Lake"
wrote in :

Not one single driver I have tried to install in wine works _NOT ONE_.
Same for running virtualiser software, it is annoying slow, dual boot Linux plus
windows is the only option.
A problem if you have the same PC up as a server (can not just go offline).
So you need 2 computers, one for Linux and one for whatever MS software, or maybe
even 3.


Why would you use a server to run apps? A server should just be a server and
not used as a general PC anyway.


At home I have now 3 PCs.
The panteltje.com servers are at my home.
No ISP, no server space lease, the name server is here too.
I have to do other things with the PCs too, and also I want to be 'green'.
To be the greenest in the world, I sometimes use the LinkSys WAP 54G as web server,
it only uses 12 Watt or less, BUT it runs my own written name server,
and with all those denial of service attacks, I counted many many... sometimes
going on for weeks on port 53, the real bind is better, unfortunately I have not
compiled it yet for the MIPS processor in the WAP
(the 'WAP' is the wireless access point too, it runs Linux).
Then there is other stuff that I need to do too.
Anyways the big PC is the home media center, home automation control,
security camera recording, background music, records digital satellite TV, plays movies,
anything you can think of, and is used for video editing, and normally as webserver,
ftp, name, and smtp (!) server too.
Works perfectly.
You can see system load here (I just transferred the site back to it):
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/view_sensors.php
So, the short answer: to use the hardware and energy as efficient as possible.
And it is no problem for a simple processor to do all those things, there are cycles spare.
It has been up for about 8 years or so now, same PC, Tyan mobo, AMD processor,
only had to replace fans a couple of times, Seagate harddisks never a problem,
those clocked more then 5 years 24/7.
A thing like this will likely be in each home one day, smaller, just for the above things.
I am simply 10 or more years ahead :-)

  #49  
Old March 23rd 09, 02:08 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
chrisv
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 580
Default Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

Robert Myers wrote:

There's always something. It used to be Tru-Type fonts and SMB
networking. Last I looked, even to get the claimed functionality out
of Ubuntu (to look at YouTube, for example), you had to use a codecs
that was of questionable legality.


Wrong. FUD.

There are usually ways around
these issues, but you have to be willing to hack and fiddle.


Bull**** you do. Many distros "just work" for online video and such.
Mepis and PCLOS and Mint are examples.

"Questionable legality" my ass. Call a cop.

Microsoft is forever messing around with SMB to make it hard for Samba
and those who want to make Samba transparent.


FUD.

Your MS-Word documents and presentations come out looking funny in
Star Office.


Wrong. FUD'ing liar.

I can live with that, but many people can't. If you
have to hack and fiddle or if the OS won't do what people generally
expect it to do, then it's not a general-purpose OS.


Normally, one does not have to, you lying, FUD'ing, TROLL.

These limitations are all a result of Microsoft monopolistic business
practices? For the most part, yes.


You have not yet stated one real limitation with Linux, troll.

What do you plan on doing about it?


People who would like a good, secure, OS with tons of free apps, and
who are not deathly afraid of trying something new, can try (and use)
Linux for FREE.

  #50  
Old March 23rd 09, 08:32 PM posted to comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips,comp.sys.intel,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Nate Edel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default Ignorant, anti-Linux trolls SUCK

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips Robert Myers wrote:
Your MS-Word documents and presentations come out looking funny in
Star Office.


Of course, they often look funny on someone else's copy of Word, if the
fonts they have installed are different, or you have 2007 and they have
2003. Most people use PDF (despite Microsoft's attempts to use Office
Document Imaging and XPS as similar standards) for documents that have to
look the same on multiple systems.

For that matter, the quality of import for non-Word word processors has
gotten WAY better in the past 4 or so years. It's not as big a deal as it
once was.

Presentations remain a bigger deal, and there is no good substitute for
PowerPoint yet (IMO.)

--
Nate Edel http://www.cubiclehermit.com/
preferred email |
is "nate" at the | "I do have a cause, though. It's obscenity. I'm
posting domain | for it."
 




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