If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
It's not nessarily a 'bad' design, just a different one.
Dell does it that way on purpose. That way, by using a large finned heat-sink on the CPU along with a duct to dirrect the airfow to/from the fan on the rear of the case, they have enough room on the back of the case to use a larger fan. A larger fan can spin at a slower RPM yet give as much airflow as a faster small fan directly on the heat-sink. A slower fan translates into less fan noise, making the system in theory, quiter, which in importatnt to many customers. "127.0.0.1" wrote in message ink.net... "Peter Cavan" wrote in message ... Hi The thing is, there isn't a CPU fan on the CPU itself. There is just a HS on the CPU. There is a big fan on the back of the case which is vented over the CPU's HS. I think the fan is 12cm, so I don't think you could add a bigger one. Could I add a fan to the existing HS? I'm not sure if it would fit with the vent on top. Thanks PC thats a poor design. i would purchase a quality HS + Fan and remove that case fan. if there are other case fans to move the air, it should be sufficient. or put a smaller fan to replace that obstrusive case fan. there are other options on circulating the case. but the most important part of your problem is getting a proper HS + fan installed. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
"127.0.0.1" wrote in
ink.net: "Peter Cavan" wrote in message ... Hi The thing is, there isn't a CPU fan on the CPU itself. There is just a HS on the CPU. There is a big fan on the back of the case which is vented over the CPU's HS. snip ----- thats a poor design. i would purchase a quality HS + Fan and remove that case fan. if there are other case fans to move the air, it should be sufficient. or put a smaller fan to replace that obstrusive case fan. there are other options on circulating the case. but the most important part of your problem is getting a proper HS + fan installed. /\/\/\/\ Actually .. the ducted fan is state of the art. A fan bolted to the top of a heatsink only recirculates the hot air that collects around it (the bigger the fan you put there .. the faster it recirculates the same hot air). The ducted fan sucks the heat from the CPU and moves it outside the case. In addition ... by "not touching" the CPU heatsink most of the noise associated with CPU cooling is eliminated. If you want to see state of the art thermal design recommendations for PC cases (that look just like what is in your Dell) then look at the thermal PDF file at the ATX formfactor organization site: http://www.formfactors.org/developer...roatxspecs.htm IMHO as always ... campbell |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
"Timothy Drouillard" wrote in message ... It's not nessarily a 'bad' design, just a different one. Dell does it that way on purpose. That way, by using a large finned heat-sink on the CPU along with a duct to dirrect the airfow to/from the fan on the rear of the case, they have enough room on the back of the case to use a larger fan. A larger fan can spin at a slower RPM yet give as much airflow as a faster small fan directly on the heat-sink. A slower fan translates into less fan noise, making the system in theory, quiter, which in importatnt to many customers. a choice of quieter with overheating vs. a bit noisier with efficient cooling.... they are still years behind macintosh designs (cube). i forget what the original processor is. but having no fan on a cpu HS is not a good design. i'd rather see the dell executives cut their bonuses to save on cost than skimping out on proper cpu cooling. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Overheating??
Possibly for some people but I don't think so for most of the Dimension 8200 owners. I bought my Dimension 8200 in June of 2002 2.53Ghz (fastest on the market at the time) 1gig PC800 ram Geforce TI4600 36gig WD Raptor 120gig Seagate SATA 250gig WD Audigy 2 Platinum DVD Plextor 52x premium CD-RW 3Com NIC It's been running pretty much 24/7 since I bought it, with absolutley no overheating problems at all. No fans added, subtracted, or modified. Pretty darn quite also. "127.0.0.1" wrote in message ink.net... a choice of quieter with overheating vs. a bit noisier with efficient cooling.... they are still years behind macintosh designs (cube). i forget what the original processor is. but having no fan on a cpu HS is not a good design. i'd rather see the dell executives cut their bonuses to save on cost than skimping out on proper cpu cooling. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:45:14 +0100, "Peter Cavan"
wrote: Hi The thing is, there isn't a CPU fan on the CPU itself. There is just a HS on the CPU. There is a big fan on the back of the case which is vented over the CPU's HS. I think the fan is 12cm, so I don't think you could add a bigger one. Could I add a fan to the existing HS? I'm not sure if it would fit with the vent on top. Thanks PC You'd probably have to fabricate some sort of attachment method to attach a fan to the existing heatsink. It may be possible but likely worth the $ to just buy a different heatsink instead. With either a fan attached or a different heatsink you'd most likely benefit more from removing the duct than leaving it on. Dave |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
Peter Cavan wrote:
It's 60-70 degrees Celsius. I've done too much stuff to the machine to list all the changes. There is no easy way that I can see to add a fan to the front or side. Contrary to the knee jerk reaction of those who think anything different than what they're used to is a 'bad design', the Dell design, in general, is quite good but knowing what you've changed is precisely what's needed because, odds are, that's where something is sufficiently different, vs what the system was originally designed for, to be causing higher temperatures. I can certainly see why Dell doesn't want to warrantee cover it if there are a ton of changes but did they tell you what the temperature should be? Is the temperature reading you have from the CPU thermal diode or an under socket thermistor? Do you have a case temperature reading? When did it start being 'hot'? After one, or more, of your additions/mods or did it work fine for a while and then suddenly get 'hot', or did it gradually get warmer over time? Do you have it shoved into a closed desk bay so it can't circulate air or is it in the open? Did you move, alter, or remove any internal ducting/air guides? Is that the original CPU? I missed your original post so could you repost the model number so I can check the Dell site for the mechanical layout docs? I was considering a new case that would easily accomodate better cooling, this would involve simply moving everything into a new case. Does anybody know if there would be any problems with moving a Dell system into a non-Dell case? I was thinking, for example, about things like PSUs, power buttons, and front panel USB, headphone etc. Thanks Peter Cavan |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
"TC" wrote in message ... "127.0.0.1" wrote in ink.net: thats a poor design. i would purchase a quality HS + Fan and remove that case fan. if there are other case fans to move the air, it should be sufficient. or put a smaller fan to replace that obstrusive case fan. there are other options on circulating the case. but the most important part of your problem is getting a proper HS + fan installed. /\/\/\/\ Actually .. the ducted fan is state of the art. A fan bolted to the top of a heatsink only recirculates the hot air that collects around it (the bigger the fan you put there .. the faster it recirculates the same hot air). The ducted fan sucks the heat from the CPU and moves it outside the case. In addition ... by "not touching" the CPU heatsink most of the noise associated with CPU cooling is eliminated. If you want to see state of the art thermal design recommendations for PC cases (that look just like what is in your Dell) then look at the thermal PDF file at the ATX formfactor organization site: http://www.formfactors.org/developer...roatxspecs.htm IMHO as always ... campbell I agree 100% In addition a ducted fan system eliminates the "dead zone" effect caused by top mounted fans. The center of the heatsink ... which is the hottest due to where the CPU die is ... doesn't get blown on directly because the top-mounted fan's blades obviously don't go all the way to the middle. In fact, the air there just kind of swirls around in a "vortex" of sorts. Heat only finally escapes when it moves to the outer edges of the heatsink where it is blown on directly. A duct cooling system pulls air across the heatsink sideways, hitting all of the fins, even the hottest ones in the middle ... resulting in much more even cooling of the heatsink fins. And on the noise front .... duct style cooling systems can utilize larger fans, which can move more air at lower RPM. Resulting in even greater reduction in noise generated. It really makes you wonder if this guy thinks that Dell is "cutting costs" by engineering new cooling solutions for each new system they come out with. A duct cooling system involves a custom heatsink, and a custom duct housing which has to be changed for every new system model. I would think that just plonking a decent CPU "HS/fan" type cooler on there would be much easier, and cheaper. Why then re-invent the wheel with each new model? Obviously ... because it WORKS BETTER! Get a clue 127! And TC, thank you for saying what I had been itching to since the first ignorant post I saw from this guy. Drumguy |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:49:12 GMT, TC wrote:
/\/\/\/\ Actually .. the ducted fan is state of the art. Nope, Gateway, Compaq and others have been using passive coolers and ducts since the Pentium 1 days. The CPU runs hotter as a result, then and today. Ductwork is merely cheaper than a high-quality heatsink, which would keep the CPU cooler AND be as quiet. The other benefit is that these systems are being shipped, sometimes great distances under less-than-ideal conditions, so reduced heatsink weight as on the Dells is reducing the chance of RMA due to socket or CPU damage. Proper fan selection is crucial to achieve low noise on an active heatsink, but so it was also when Dell built their ducted system. Dave |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
"kony" wrote in message ... On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:49:12 GMT, TC wrote: /\/\/\/\ Actually .. the ducted fan is state of the art. Nope, Gateway, Compaq and others have been using passive coolers and ducts since the Pentium 1 days. The CPU runs hotter as a result, then and today. Ductwork is merely cheaper than a high-quality heatsink, which would keep the CPU cooler AND be as quiet. The other benefit is that these systems are being shipped, sometimes great distances under less-than-ideal conditions, so reduced heatsink weight as on the Dells is reducing the chance of RMA due to socket or CPU damage. Proper fan selection is crucial to achieve low noise on an active heatsink, but so it was also when Dell built their ducted system. Dave And why not go with a cheaper alternative if it works? Sure, the Dell duct cooler may run hotter ... but Dell's main interest is RMA's, and if their coolers didn't keep systems stable they would do something different. The truth is, duct cooling systems ARE better ... they allow Dell to get away with what would seem crazy in terms of the number of fans and individual fan speeds. Imagine a duct system with a whisper quiet 120mm fan pulling as much air as 3 or 4 loud 60mm fans using a well made oversized copper passive heatsink. It would blow away any active cooler you can name. Not to mention pulling all that hot air outside of the case ... which would keep the internal ambient temperatures down. Just because Dell doesn't implement it to the best of it's potential doesn't mean that it's inferior. In fact, it's what allows Dell to achieve stable performance with such (on it's face) inadequate cooling. Drumguy |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 02:03:35 -0500, "drumguy1384"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:49:12 GMT, TC wrote: /\/\/\/\ Actually .. the ducted fan is state of the art. Nope, Gateway, Compaq and others have been using passive coolers and ducts since the Pentium 1 days. The CPU runs hotter as a result, then and today. Ductwork is merely cheaper than a high-quality heatsink, which would keep the CPU cooler AND be as quiet. The other benefit is that these systems are being shipped, sometimes great distances under less-than-ideal conditions, so reduced heatsink weight as on the Dells is reducing the chance of RMA due to socket or CPU damage. Proper fan selection is crucial to achieve low noise on an active heatsink, but so it was also when Dell built their ducted system. And why not go with a cheaper alternative if it works? It's cheaper for Dell, not necessarily for us. They would likely hit the same price-points either way. Sure, the Dell duct cooler may run hotter ... but Dell's main interest is RMA's, and if their coolers didn't keep systems stable they would do something different. I suggest a reread of the OP, which stable. Someday when boxes are static, sealed systems like a VCR, it could be a good standard to follow, but PCs are user-configurable devices, even if it does void the warranty. A chassis that's not very forgiving of airflow changes can't accomodate user upgrades and/or may not last as long. Why would Dell care about that... after all, it'll last till the warranty is up so long as nothing is changed (which voids the warranty), they assume. The truth is, duct cooling systems ARE better ... they allow Dell to get away with what would seem crazy in terms of the number of fans and individual fan speeds. Fans have been around a long time, it's not crazy or hard in any way to put an appropriate amount of cooling in a system... no more, no less. Better is relative... it's better for Dell, but not necessarily for their customers. Dell as well as anyone else has the resources to build quiet PCs with fans on the heatsink. What they did instead IS an acceptable method of cooling, but still inferior when it comes to noise... Yes, it's LOUDER. A ducted fan requires higher RPM to move the same amount of air, and there is more turbulent noise escaping the chassis. A lower-RPM rear fan with no duct can be quieter while moving same amount of air though the system, while the heatsink fan can have even less noise escaping the chassis than the rear fan, and keep the CPU cooler than Dell's method. Imagine a duct system with a whisper quiet 120mm fan pulling as much air as 3 or 4 loud 60mm fans using a well made oversized copper passive heatsink. Imagine same 120mm fan without the duct, so it has a better airflow to noise ratio. 120mm fans are great for moving a lot of air quietly, but it can't be forgotten that axial fans are low-pressure air-movers, having a large fan ducted down to create vacuume to pull air though a heatsink isn't optimal airflow, it would be better to use a diagonal fan (which BTW is not a mounting position but airflow characteristic), but even then to maintain high enough airflow through the duct to have temps parallel to active 'sinks, the fan would have to spin fast enough (or an alternate type fan producing more noise at same RPM would be needed) that it's not what most people would consider quiet-silent. It would blow away any active cooler you can name. It won't, because fans that create a lot of vacuume are noisey. Without more vacuume than a traditional fan can provide at low noise levels, there will always be less airflow though the heatsink than a fan [of same or lesser (operating) noise while] atop a 'sink. Users everywhere with these Dell sytems have higher CPU temps than people using _good_ active coolers. The idealistic notions of the ducted cooling system are contradicted by fact. The fact is that a fan mounted on a heatsink can be quiet and still move more air through the 'sink than the duct will, which results in lower temp. The difference is great enough that air recirculated though the 'sink doesn't reduce the effectiveness to the lower level of a ducted cooling system. Removing the duct also allows the rear fan to move more air. Greater airflow to noise ratio results, in addition to a lower CPU temp. The downside to active heatsink cooling is not performance, it's cost, and possibly strain on the socket (or other mounting with a P4) during transportation. Dell can buy 120mm fans and ducts in bulk for low prices, unlike the situation an end-user will see, where a simple duct is generic, not custom-designed for the system, and still costs WAY too much for being a relatively simple piece of plastic. A relatively elaborate, effectively designed duct might help, but would then might be more expensive, less immune to dust buildup, and still it won't change the anemic vacuume of the fan. all that hot air outside of the case ... which would keep the internal ambient temperatures down. An oversimplified theory which goes against the evidence that our OP and other Dell owners have hotter running CPUs. It's a good idea to get the hot air out without it recirculating, but doing without the CPU 'sink fan is not helping to accomplish that. If Dell had chosen to they couldn've put a silent fan on the 'sink and still used a duct... I'm not aways against ducts, but there are usually unnecessary and often not a good substitute for active cooling. Just because Dell doesn't implement it to the best of it's potential doesn't mean that it's inferior. In fact, it's what allows Dell to achieve stable performance with such (on it's face) inadequate cooling. It's inferior from a cooling standpoint, almost equal from a noise standpoint. A well-designed duct might be used, but we can't be so sure Dell hasn't weighed all the alternatives and that their duct isn't the best implementation from their perspective. It would have to be the OEM's perspective at issue, since end users or smaller builders have more variable cases and motherboards to consider (or to put it another way, higher cost due to low volume, per each duct design), so a custom duct could only be made at great expense or hand-made, taking a fair amount of time (and to some time is money). A duct in itself isn't necessarily a bad addition to a system, but it does have different benefits than an active cooler. Lower temps, lower noise, aren't two of the benefits unique to a duct-cooling strategy... it's just that so many crap coolers with junk high-RPM fans are out there, that duct-cooling is good in comparision to the lowest-cost alternatives. Dave |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Athlon XP questions | Aragorn | General | 8 | August 20th 03 02:39 AM |
AMD system and memory questions | Germán Schuager | General | 9 | August 11th 03 06:35 AM |
Cooling Fans | jms | General | 2 | August 9th 03 05:45 PM |
Various Questions on Macintosh PowerBook G4 | Cyde Weys | General | 3 | July 29th 03 12:54 AM |
serial ATA vs ATA133...can't decide on wich...to much unanswered questions... | KILOWATT | General | 2 | July 12th 03 10:13 AM |