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Need Help Understanding OC results for 'old' Celery not liking Win2K



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 1st 04, 06:06 PM
pgtr
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Default Need Help Understanding OC results for 'old' Celery not liking Win2K

I've got an old ABit ZM6 (PPGA360) MoBo and picked up an old Celeron
566 coppermine (cB0) which the board DOES support w/ last couple BIOSs
(it's a PPGA board and this is an early FCPGA chip). Previously I had
a 366(66) OC'd to 550(100) for years no prob. I dropped in the 566 and
w/ 66FSB sure enough it works just fine at 1.5V as advertised.

Now here's where I've run into some rather odd behavior given my
limited experience w/ OC'ing - I suspect it may just not be OC'able
but I'd be curious to understand it's behavior. Is there something
special about Win2K at boot time that taxes a CPU perhaps?

Basically it will post 850mhz all day long about 1.75V to 1.80V or
better. It will boot into DOS(w95) easily as well using a boot disk.

Here's the odd behavior: It is a ONE-TIME run session immediately
after a BIOS Flash for Win2K specifically.

It will never reboot again into Win2K. Sound strange? Let me explain
further. Let's say I set the voltage to say 1.85 or 1.90V default
(those are good popular voltages for an OC'd SL46T) - to do that I
have to reflash the BIOS so the Abit will give me a proper 'default'
voltage range. Immediately (and 1 time only) after a given reflash I
can then boot it ONE time and ONE TIME ONLY at 850mhz(100FSB). That's
IT! It will never reboot, restart or power-off and get back into Win2K
at that speed. Doesn't matter what I do to modify the voltage further
(I've gone as high as 2V). It will hang on booting into Win2K next go
around period.

I CAN get back into Win2K if I do a reflash of the BIOS as I would to
say modify the default voltage. I am then granted one single full boot
into Win2K. BUt I know of know other 'trick' to allow me back in a 2nd
time...

I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).


Once in Win2K it's golden at about 1.85V to 1.95V - any of those will
yield seemingly long term stability and hours and hours of Prime95 w/
temps as high as 39C (1.95V). I can play games, do nothing, whatever -
seems rock solid.

But remember I CANNOT get BACK into Win2K a SECOND time if I do a
restart or power it down.

And also remember that this machine has run for years at 100FSB w/ a
366 OC'd to 550 under the same Win2K setup. (DO I need to do something
special in Win2K when upping to a new CPU?)

That just doesn't seem consistent w/ my experience w/ OCing. Even
though I can trick it into 850mhz under Win2K thru the hassle of a
reflash each time - obviously it's not worth the hassle so I'd have to
say this one 'apparently' is not OC'able. But I'd like to better
understand it's behavior as well as whether or not there is something
about Win2K or other BIOS settings etc I should be aware of here.

thanks!

PS: Also the case reset button no longer functions w/ it set at
100FSB(850mhz) - usually I have to power cycle now too...?
  #2  
Old July 4th 04, 09:46 AM
Spajky
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Default

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:06:05 -0500, pgtr wrote:

I've got an old ABit ZM6 (PPGA360) MoBo and picked up an old Celeron
566 coppermine (cB0) which the board DOES support ....


Basically it will post 850mhz all day long about 1.75V to 1.80V or
better. It will boot into DOS(w95) easily as well using a boot disk.

Here's the odd behavior: It is a ONE-TIME run session immediately
after a BIOS Flash for Win2K specifically.


I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).


But remember I CANNOT get BACK into Win2K a SECOND time if I do a
restart or power it down.

And also remember that this machine has run for years at 100FSB w/ a
366 OC'd to 550 under the same Win2K setup.


check for bad caps ...
--
Regards, SPAJKY ®
& visit my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
"Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
E-mail AntiSpam: remove ##
  #3  
Old July 4th 04, 06:36 PM
N. Thornton
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Default

pgtr wrote in message . ..

I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).


says it all.


PS: Also the case reset button no longer functions w/ it set at
100FSB(850mhz) - usually I have to power cycle now too...?


again, says it all. Seems like you been focussing too much on whats
not relevant. Something needs slowing down. I've no idea what your
speed options are on this combo but hope you can do something better
than 566, if not 850.


Regards, NT
  #4  
Old July 5th 04, 12:11 AM
David Maynard
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Spajky wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:06:05 -0500, pgtr wrote:


I've got an old ABit ZM6 (PPGA360) MoBo and picked up an old Celeron
566 coppermine (cB0) which the board DOES support ....



Basically it will post 850mhz all day long about 1.75V to 1.80V or
better. It will boot into DOS(w95) easily as well using a boot disk.

Here's the odd behavior: It is a ONE-TIME run session immediately
after a BIOS Flash for Win2K specifically.


Try clearing CMOS and reentering your parameters.


I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).



But remember I CANNOT get BACK into Win2K a SECOND time if I do a
restart or power it down.


Yes, well, simply saying "it's broke" doesn't provide many clues. What the
heck does it DO when it doesn't 'get back into Win2K'? Hang? Crash? reboot?
Spew some message at you? And at what point in the shutdown or boot?

It runs win2K fine 'one-time'? (whatever the heck 'one-time' means).

What was the purpose of the flash and what 'changes' does the update say it
makes? That may have a clue.

Set your memory timings to the slowest possible and see if that helps.

And also remember that this machine has run for years at 100FSB w/ a
366 OC'd to 550 under the same Win2K setup.



check for bad caps ...


  #5  
Old July 7th 04, 05:48 AM
pgtr
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Default

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:11:09 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:

I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).



But remember I CANNOT get BACK into Win2K a SECOND time if I do a
restart or power it down.


Yes, well, simply saying "it's broke" doesn't provide many clues. What the
heck does it DO when it doesn't 'get back into Win2K'? Hang? Crash? reboot?
Spew some message at you? And at what point in the shutdown or boot?


It hangs. It usually hangs in the black 'F8' screen w/ the progress
bar at the bottom that says it is starting windows. The progress bar
at the bottom usually goes about 75-80% across when it locks up. The
case reset switch has no affect at this point either - I have to power
it off. It will not log a bootlog file either.

It runs win2K fine 'one-time'? (whatever the heck 'one-time' means).


Here's what I wrote before in anticipation of your question:
It will never reboot again into Win2K. Sound strange? Let me explain
further. Let's say I set the voltage to say 1.85 or 1.90V default
(those are good popular voltages for an OC'd SL46T) - to do that I
have to reflash the BIOS so the Abit will give me a proper 'default'
voltage range. Immediately (and 1 time only) after a given reflash I
can then boot it ONE time and ONE TIME ONLY at 850mhz(100FSB). That's
IT! It will never reboot, restart or power-off and get back into Win2K
at that speed. Doesn't matter what I do to modify the voltage further
(I've gone as high as 2V). It will hang on booting into Win2K next go
around period.


I'll attempt to rephrase:

It means after flashing the BIOS I can then successfully boot into W2K
exactly ONE time. No more and no less. Once into W2K that initial time
(after a flash) at 850mhz - runs just fine all day long - torture
tests etc... But should I reboot or restart or shut down and later
restart it will NOT run W2K again (see above). (until of course I go
thru the reflash process). At this point I have to kick the FSB back
from 100 to 75.

I can boot to a 98 command prompt boot disk at 850mhz (100FSB) as
well. Tomorrow I'll throw together 98 setup on a spare HD and try that
to see if it can get into a full 98 windows environment.

What was the purpose of the flash and what 'changes' does the update say it
makes? That may have a clue.


The purpose of flashing is to modify the default voltage range from
1.5V +-.2V to a higher default such as 1.7V (+-.2V) or greater. There
are no 'changes' per se - I reflash w/ the last release BIOS.

Set your memory timings to the slowest possible and see if that helps.


Long since set to slowest most conservative settings. Everythign in
BIOS is set conservatively. Remember this all worked fine w/ a 100FSB
setting w/ a 366 OCd to 550. The 100FSB itself in thoery shouldn't be
a problem here I would think...?

And also remember that this machine has run for years at 100FSB w/ a
366 OC'd to 550 under the same Win2K setup.



check for bad caps ...


  #6  
Old July 7th 04, 05:48 AM
pgtr
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Default

Can you expand on how to check for bad caps?

thanks,



On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 10:46:53 +0200, Spajky wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 12:06:05 -0500, pgtr wrote:

I've got an old ABit ZM6 (PPGA360) MoBo and picked up an old Celeron
566 coppermine (cB0) which the board DOES support ....


Basically it will post 850mhz all day long about 1.75V to 1.80V or
better. It will boot into DOS(w95) easily as well using a boot disk.

Here's the odd behavior: It is a ONE-TIME run session immediately
after a BIOS Flash for Win2K specifically.


I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).


But remember I CANNOT get BACK into Win2K a SECOND time if I do a
restart or power it down.

And also remember that this machine has run for years at 100FSB w/ a
366 OC'd to 550 under the same Win2K setup.


check for bad caps ...


  #8  
Old July 7th 04, 08:17 AM
David Maynard
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Posts: n/a
Default

pgtr wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jul 2004 18:11:09 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:


I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).


But remember I CANNOT get BACK into Win2K a SECOND time if I do a
restart or power it down.


Yes, well, simply saying "it's broke" doesn't provide many clues. What the
heck does it DO when it doesn't 'get back into Win2K'? Hang? Crash? reboot?
Spew some message at you? And at what point in the shutdown or boot?



It hangs. It usually hangs in the black 'F8' screen w/ the progress
bar at the bottom that says it is starting windows. The progress bar
at the bottom usually goes about 75-80% across when it locks up. The
case reset switch has no affect at this point either - I have to power
it off. It will not log a bootlog file either.


The case reset switch not working is particularly disturbing. Does it work
on the 'first' boot? I mean, instead of trying a reboot can you kill it by
hitting reset?


It runs win2K fine 'one-time'? (whatever the heck 'one-time' means).



Here's what I wrote before in anticipation of your question:

It will never reboot again into Win2K. Sound strange? Let me explain
further. Let's say I set the voltage to say 1.85 or 1.90V default
(those are good popular voltages for an OC'd SL46T) - to do that I
have to reflash the BIOS so the Abit will give me a proper 'default'
voltage range. Immediately (and 1 time only) after a given reflash I
can then boot it ONE time and ONE TIME ONLY at 850mhz(100FSB). That's
IT! It will never reboot, restart or power-off and get back into Win2K
at that speed. Doesn't matter what I do to modify the voltage further
(I've gone as high as 2V). It will hang on booting into Win2K next go
around period.



I'll attempt to rephrase:

It means after flashing the BIOS I can then successfully boot into W2K
exactly ONE time. No more and no less. Once into W2K that initial time
(after a flash) at 850mhz - runs just fine all day long - torture
tests etc... But should I reboot or restart or shut down and later
restart it will NOT run W2K again (see above). (until of course I go
thru the reflash process). At this point I have to kick the FSB back
from 100 to 75.

I can boot to a 98 command prompt boot disk at 850mhz (100FSB) as
well. Tomorrow I'll throw together 98 setup on a spare HD and try that
to see if it can get into a full 98 windows environment.


What was the purpose of the flash and what 'changes' does the update say it
makes? That may have a clue.



The purpose of flashing is to modify the default voltage range from
1.5V +-.2V to a higher default such as 1.7V (+-.2V) or greater. There
are no 'changes' per se - I reflash w/ the last release BIOS.


Yeah. Ok. If you'd mentioned Abit and flashing for Vcore I'd have known
what you meant.

I've never heard of a problem quite like this but it's as if the
motherboard doesn't like the foolie flash.

Which Abit motherboard is it? I presume it's one of their socket 370 boards
because if you're using a slotket you could adjust Vcore there and not
bother with the flash. Well, unless you're using one of the el-cheapo
slotkets with no Vcore jumpers.

Set your memory timings to the slowest possible and see if that helps.



Long since set to slowest most conservative settings. Everythign in
BIOS is set conservatively. Remember this all worked fine w/ a 100FSB
setting w/ a 366 OCd to 550. The 100FSB itself in thoery shouldn't be
a problem here I would think...?


Well, it could but, in this case, I doubt that's it since it works
'forever' until you try to reboot.

Just because it worked with a 366 OC'd, though, doesn't mean a 566 'must'.
On the other hand, that overclock isn't in any way unusual.

The only significant difference I can think of, off hand, is the 366 being
a ppga but the 566 a COPPERMINE. What stepping is it? The B stepping is
socket compatible with ppga but I think there were some differences with the C.

I don't have an answer but some thoughts. It seems to be either BIOS or
coppermine related and not the overclock, per see, since it runs fine the
one time. The reboot failure sounds similar to the reset switch not working
since the last thing a reboot does is essentially a reset. Which wouldn't
seem to explain not working a second time from a cold start EXCEPT a cold
start 'starts' with reset (By reset I mean to include setting up the
processor registers). So then the question would be, why does it work the
first time at all? And, with that, it starts at 66, so it had a reset, you
flash, reboot, set Vcore/FSB, and then run 100. Have you tried powering it
off RIGHT after you set 100MHz FSB, but no boot into Windows, to see if it
will THEN run the 'one time' from a cold start at 100MHz FSB?

Doesn't seem to explain why it would run in DOS, though, unless whatever is
'missing' from the reset is of no consequence to DOS.





  #9  
Old July 7th 04, 12:33 PM
N. Thornton
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pgtr wrote in message . ..
On 4 Jul 2004 10:36:17 -0700, (N. Thornton) wrote:
pgtr wrote in message . ..


I CAN also get back into Win2K if I drop the FSB down to 66 for a
stock 566 speed (and of course old DOS at 850mhz too).


says it all.


Can you expand more on what all that says?


I'm no overclocking genius but if it all works dandy at one speed and
frequently hangs at 30% faster speed... hello?


PS: Also the case reset button no longer functions w/ it set at
100FSB(850mhz) - usually I have to power cycle now too...?


again, says it all. Seems like you been focussing too much on whats
not relevant. Something needs slowing down. I've no idea what your
speed options are on this combo but hope you can do something better
than 566, if not 850.


I've got the thing as conservatively set up as possible.


Is a 566 running at 850 conservative?


The only real
variable here that I'm aware of is the FSB - can you suggest what I
appear to be missing?


the obvious?


The chip is locked at 8.5 multiplier. It runs fine at 66FSB (it's
stock speed). It will run fine at 75FSB (a mild OC of 637mhz). It will
run fine at 100FSB one time immediately after a BIOS flash. It will
also run fine at 850mhz(100FSB) repeatedly if using a boot disk into
DOS or Win98 command prompt. (I'm going to check a full 98 setup
later). So far the indications are that the COMBINATION of W2K and 850
on this chip are mutually exclusive. Also all the H/W has worked fine
in the past w/ Win2K at 100FSB (using a 366 OC'd to 550).

Can you offer some suggestions on what is relevant to try?



DOS / 98 command prompt is small and simple compared to win98, and
thus far more likely to boot than full Win when you have data errors
going on. This is to be expected.

I dont know I could always be wrong, but it seems quite obvious that
youre trying to run it at a speed it cant do. What to do? Run it at a
speed it will do! What else?

Youve tried the tricks, tweaking the voltage... thats it. Your max
speed depends not just on CPU or mobo, but on the pair of them
together. If the CPU will run faster in another mobo, you might
contemplate using the other mobo.


Regards, NT
  #10  
Old July 7th 04, 03:55 PM
pgtr
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Default

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 02:17:42 -0500, David Maynard
wrote:

SNIP

It hangs. It usually hangs in the black 'F8' screen w/ the progress
bar at the bottom that says it is starting windows. The progress bar
at the bottom usually goes about 75-80% across when it locks up. The
case reset switch has no affect at this point either - I have to power
it off. It will not log a bootlog file either.


The case reset switch not working is particularly disturbing. Does it work
on the 'first' boot? I mean, instead of trying a reboot can you kill it by
hitting reset?


Let me expand on that. The 'reset' switch on the case normally works
fine and of course is only needed in a dire situation (which is super
rare or almost never for me under W2K). If I OC to 850mhz and do the
flash trick I can get into W2K. At that point I've never tried the
reset swich because there was no need. The PC functioned normally and
I could then do a normal restart or shut down thru windows.

The NEXT time into W2K it will of course hang usually on the black F8
windows starting phase... Now HERE if I hit the reset button it will
blank the screen, you'll here some ticks coming from the HD as you
normally would but then it just sits there w/ a black screen
indefinately. I simply have to turn the power off and then back on to
get it to respond again.

I CAN however put a boot disk in and boot (at 850mhz) into a DOS
prompt (W98 book disk) and the reset button works there as well as
CNTRL ALT DEL.

Basically when it hangs on teh 2nd attempt and beyond going into W2K
at 850mhz - it REALLY hangs and not even the reset button will wake it
up properly - just a power off/on.


Yeah. Ok. If you'd mentioned Abit and flashing for Vcore I'd have known
what you meant.


Yep. I thought I'd mentioned in the orig post it was an ABit ZM6
(similar to BM6 but less memory). You know your mobos! I have the
latest flashing they released (SU?) to move the default voltage up...
I think the chip is pretty happy at 1.85V which is right in line w/
the many entries in overclockers.com CPU database for OCing the 566 to
850.

I've never heard of a problem quite like this but it's as if the
motherboard doesn't like the foolie flash.


Which Abit motherboard is it? I presume it's one of their socket 370 boards
because if you're using a slotket you could adjust Vcore there and not
bother with the flash. Well, unless you're using one of the el-cheapo
slotkets with no Vcore jumpers.


Yes again - you do know those old mobos! The ZM6 w/ the last couple of
flashings (QU? and SU?) will support the earliest coppermine CPUs
including explicitly the cB0 stepping up to 600mhz - this chip is a
566 cB0 stepping. No slotket or adapter.

Set your memory timings to the slowest possible and see if that helps.



Long since set to slowest most conservative settings. Everythign in
BIOS is set conservatively. Remember this all worked fine w/ a 100FSB
setting w/ a 366 OCd to 550. The 100FSB itself in thoery shouldn't be
a problem here I would think...?


Well, it could but, in this case, I doubt that's it since it works
'forever' until you try to reboot.


Indeed. Forever: Several days at a time including extended overnight
sessions w/ prime95 torture test. No apparent temp problems or
stability issues. It just runs fantastic at 850mhz that ONE time after
a flash under W2K. Its the 2nd time and beyond that it hangs... As I
said never quite heard of something like this in my limited OCing
experience. Strange!

I got lucky in stumbling into the fact that it would work the one time
after a reflash - if it wasn't for that I might very well have
concluded it was not do-able.

Just because it worked with a 366 OC'd, though, doesn't mean a 566 'must'.
On the other hand, that overclock isn't in any way unusual.


No it doesn't. But 366 at 550 tells me that the system is stable and
happy w/ a 100FSB. And the 566 CAN run nicely at 850 indefinately that
'one' time after a flash. It can also run at 850 consistently via a
DOS prompt boot. Sure seems like the ducks are all in a row for it to
OC at 850mhz but throw in W2K and ...?

The only significant difference I can think of, off hand, is the 366 being
a ppga but the 566 a COPPERMINE. What stepping is it? The B stepping is
socket compatible with ppga but I think there were some differences with the C.


Yep - see above - it's a cB0 which is supported by ABit ZM6 w/ the
last couple of BIOS releases.

I don't have an answer but some thoughts. It seems to be either BIOS or
coppermine related and not the overclock, per see, since it runs fine the
one time. The reboot failure sounds similar to the reset switch not working
since the last thing a reboot does is essentially a reset. Which wouldn't
seem to explain not working a second time from a cold start EXCEPT a cold
start 'starts' with reset (By reset I mean to include setting up the
processor registers). So then the question would be, why does it work the
first time at all? And, with that, it starts at 66, so it had a reset, you
flash, reboot, set Vcore/FSB, and then run 100. Have you tried powering it
off RIGHT after you set 100MHz FSB, but no boot into Windows, to see if it
will THEN run the 'one time' from a cold start at 100MHz FSB?


No I haven't tried that particular combination. What might that tells
us one way or the other? To be honest going thru the flashing process
is a little tricky and sometimes it doesn't take or preserve the
voltages correctly and may take a 2nd or 3rd attempt (I've had
problems w/ it reverting from 1.7V to 1.5V default on subsequent
flashes so I have to do it twice). Even though I have a UPS we have
lots of power fluctuations out here and to be honest I'm just plain
nervous about doing any more flashes.

Doesn't seem to explain why it would run in DOS, though, unless whatever is
'missing' from the reset is of no consequence to DOS.


I'm leaning towards something odd going on w/ W2K that seems to upset
the applecart so to speak w/ regards to: BIOS or COppermine or
something...? I believe the chip posts consistently at 850. It doesn't
have any temperature related stability problems at 850. W2K is happy
w/ the chip at 66FSB and 75FSB.

There is a setting as I recall in the BIOS that is something like
'Force Update ESCD' - could that have any impact?

I'm going to hit the jumper on the mobo and clear the CMOS (may need
to reflash to get back to 1.7V default?) and see what that does.

I'm also going to grab an extra small HD and put a Win98 install on
there and swap out the two large HDs w/ W2K for this one temporarily -
I'd like to see if it will boot consistently into a full Win98 at
850... I don't know how much it says that it can boot into a W98 dos
prompt at 850 consistently - it is only a DOS prompt as opposed to the
full W98. Basically at this point I'm sure the chip will post at 850
consistently. Also that it doesn't seem to have any temperature
related stability problems (based on 'successfuly' initial boots after
flash).

Thanks,

 




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