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#1
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PSU load tester
Hi all,
I'm soon to be reviewing a new 750W psu but I don't have anything for load.. I have seen heavy mention of wire wound power resistors of 'various values' but no mention of what those values are. I can get various load resistors of around 100ohm/10W from ebay.. but oviously 100ohm isn't gonna be sufficient.. I'm not sure if 10W is heavy enough either.. Any suggestions on the values I should use to create a good load... I'm talking like 600W+ at least.. and if I can setup multiple banks of resistors that would be good too so I can have 100W, 200W, 350W, 500W, etc.. Just to be clear I want a _load tester_ not a $10 PSU tester that tells me if it's dead or alive.. I have a good DMM and will probably buy a second so I can measure V and A simultaneously.. I also plan on getting a Kill-A-Watt P3 meter.. so the load tester is the only real concern I have.. Thanks in advance.. Chris |
#2
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PSU load tester
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:40:33 -0400, "Skeleton Man"
wrote: I'm soon to be reviewing a new 750W psu but I don't have anything for load.. Common and readily available load: car headlights. Either new or from a scrapyard. -- Kind regards, Gerard Bok |
#3
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PSU load tester
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:40:33 -0400, "Skeleton Man"
wrote: Hi all, I'm soon to be reviewing a new 750W psu but I don't have anything for load.. I have seen heavy mention of wire wound power resistors of 'various values' but no mention of what those values are. I can get various load resistors of around 100ohm/10W from ebay.. but oviously 100ohm isn't gonna be sufficient.. I'm not sure if 10W is heavy enough either.. There are quite a few ways to create the load but if you want to use load resistors, so be it. How did you plan on mounting and cooling them? Merely hooking up this load for a few minutes isn't going to tell you much rather than running long term and this means you have significant heat (750W) to be rid of. There are resistors inside extruded aluminum casings to help 'sink them but that's a massive heatsink if you were to try to passively remove 750W, I'd suggest something more like a large aluminum tube with a fan blowing through the middle, or oil cooling or (your inventiveness, budget and skill in fabricating something will determine what your (subjective) best approach is. Ohm's law will get you started, V = I * R (or) I = V/R So suppose your PSU is rated for 24A on the 12V rail. The series resistance to load it to 24A is; 24 = 12 / R R = 0.5 Ohm So you'll have to find either a .5 Ohm resistor rated for 12 x 24A = 288W (which is uncommon), or use series and/or parallel resistors to reach 0.5 Ohm, and based on how many are in series you calculate out how many watts rating each would need, except that it is generally good to over-spec power resistors, you shouldn't really run a resistor rated for 20W at 20W continuously if you want it to last and be easier to cool. Same applies to the other power rails, you just calculate out what resistance you need to achieve the rated current on each, and the wattage rating (plus a margin) of each member in that reistor array. You may find that eBay doesn't allow the selection of resistor wattage or resistance you need (want) for best results. You might also find that it's easier to device the housing, board, cooling method, etc, and go from there towards determining what resistors you'd use. Any suggestions on the values I should use to create a good load... I'm talking like 600W+ at least.. and if I can setup multiple banks of resistors that would be good too so I can have 100W, 200W, 350W, 500W, etc.. I'd think about running the resistors at roughly half their wattage rating... so for 12V rail, "if" you used 10W resistors you might pick 22Ohm so you had 12(V)/22(Ohm)= 0.55A, 0.55A * 12V = 6.6W each. The number of resistors you put in parallel then determines how many amps of load on the 12V rail. Suppose you wanted a closer fractional current addition per resistor, let's say each reistor is additional 0.5A load instead of 0.55A. 12 / 0.5 = 24 (Ohm). or perhaps you want 1A per resistor, 12 / 1 = 12 Ohm, but to keep some margin you'd want 20W instead of 10W resistors. Just to be clear I want a _load tester_ not a $10 PSU tester that tells me if it's dead or alive.. Understood, but remember that a resistive load tester will only qualify the PSU for running a constant, resistive load. A computer is a highly variable capacitive load too. A constant resistive load is *easier* for a PSU if it has the capacity to do it at all. I have a good DMM and will probably buy a second so I can measure V and A simultaneously.. I also plan on getting a Kill-A-Watt P3 meter.. so the load tester is the only real concern I have.. We can expect a typical 750W PSU to have well over 10A on at least 2, probably 3 or more rails. Make sure your (DMM with current feature) is rated for this current. Most aren't, on consumer grade DMM 10A is a common limit. The other option would be to meaure the voltage drop across one of the resistors and calculate it out (Ohms law again). Suppose you had a 0.5 ohm resistor and 0.21V difference in voltage at one end of the resistor to the other. It matters not if there are other resistors in series with it (on the same rail). V = I * R 0.21 = I * 0.5 I = 0.42A The best combination of resistors to use can be calulated as described above but will also depend on what you are willing to sacrifice in convenience of implementation to get cheaper parts (going on eBay to find them, for example). If you want better resistor selections then consider some of the major online electronics houses like http://www.alliedelec.com/ http://www.digikey.com/ http://www.jameco.com/ http://www.mouser.com/ http://www.newark.com/ You can sometimes get lower prices at some of the electronics surplus 'sites but it is hit-or-miss what they have available. Something like the following might be convenient, especially if you have some large heatsinks lying around (or reasonably thick aluminum sheeting, say 0.1" or thicker) and can put it all onto your own PCB (though if screwed or bolted down I suppose you could air-wire it instead but it might look a bit messy). http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=RES1406 As for switching between different current levels, again just do the math for how many resistors you'd group together for the target current, and get some heavy duty switches rated for this high a DC current. Regular light switches available at a local hardware store might be as cost effective as anything but are a bit larger than some alternative due to the bracket on them, but the bracket does allow easier mounting if you were to put this all on a board or something like that instead of a proper chassis. |
#4
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PSU load tester
There are quite a few ways to create the load but if you
want to use load resistors, so be it. How did you plan on mounting and cooling them? Merely hooking up this load for a few minutes isn't going to tell you much rather than running long term and this means you have significant heat (750W) to be rid of. Honestly, I was thinking just mount the resistors to a big slab of aliminium or a big heatsink out of something. No PCB or anything, just a series of resistors wired together, with a few molex connectors attached. There are resistors inside extruded aluminum casings to help 'sink them but that's a massive heatsink if you were to try to passively remove 750W, I'd suggest something more like a large aluminum tube with a fan blowing through the middle, or oil cooling or (your inventiveness, budget and skill in fabricating something will determine what your (subjective) best approach is. I saw those resistors you speak of.. 50W, 30ohm on ebay for $2/piece.. I was thinking bolt them to a big heatsink of some variety.. whatever I could get my hands on from something dead (amp/hifi, etc). Budget is as cheap as possible.. $10 - $15 would great.. ideally no more than about $25.. Skill in fabricating is zero.. I can drill holes in a chunk of metal and put a few bolts in.. if it involves cutting or shaping anything or making a PCB, it's outta the question.. Understood, but remember that a resistive load tester will only qualify the PSU for running a constant, resistive load. A computer is a highly variable capacitive load too. A constant resistive load is *easier* for a PSU if it has the capacity to do it at all. A large purely resistive load seems to be the norm for most places when it comes to testing a PSU.. I did see a variation that used 2 car headlamps and about 8 transistors.. I don't understand what the purpose of the transistors is though... The schematic is he http://www.kbt-dc-supplies.com/tester.php If I could make it an RC load that would be great.. but it would all still have to be simple and mount on a big heatsink.. delicate PCBs are not an option.. (I have no means to make them, and I don't have a small delicate iron either). I will try your suggestions re parallell resitors and ohms law.. I did try applying ohms law.. but when it worked out to 0.67ohms to draw 18amps @ 12v I thought I royally screwed up my calculations.. (I was expecting a couple of hundred ohms). The main things I want to test are thermal/overload protection, fan speed/noise at different loads, and voltage readings at different loads.. (e.g. do I still get 12V with it loaded to 700W or does it look more like 10V). We can expect a typical 750W PSU to have well over 10A on at least 2, probably 3 or more rails. Make sure your (DMM with current feature) is rated for this current. Most aren't, on consumer grade DMM 10A is a common limit. The other option would be to meaure the voltage drop across one of the resistors and calculate it out (Ohms law again). Upon looking, my current DMM only handles 10A.. so I'll have to find a better one or just calculate amperage like you said.. I suppose analogue meter movements still only handle 10A too ? Obviously I can't afford a $1000 fluke bench meter.. (as much as I would like one) Speaking of equipment.. I read it's possible to use a software O'Scope which works off the sound card.. (one probe connects to line out, the other to line in).. is this suitable for checking AC ripple in the psu output ? (I don't need precision, just a good estimate) I don't have access to a CRO to use/borrow and it's another tool that is way beyond my budget.. (if it's more than $50 it's past my budget) Thanks for the help.. Chris |
#5
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PSU load tester
Something like the following might be
convenient, especially if you have some large heatsinks lying around (or reasonably thick aluminum sheeting, say 0.1" or thicker) and can put it all onto your own PCB (though if screwed or bolted down I suppose you could air-wire it instead but it might look a bit messy). http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=RES1406 Those do look convenient, but as I will be air-wiring everything, I don't think it would be possible. I mean there's no way that wire small enough to attach to the terminals of that package, would handle 1amp, letalone 24A. That may be my problem in general.. finding and working with wire that will handle such a high current.. I would assume the 24A from the PSU would be combined from all the molex connectors and I couldn't draw that from a single connector ? Chris |
#6
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PSU load tester
Skeleton Man wrote:
There are quite a few ways to create the load but if you want to use load resistors, so be it. How did you plan on mounting and cooling them? Merely hooking up this load for a few minutes isn't going to tell you much rather than running long term and this means you have significant heat (750W) to be rid of. Honestly, I was thinking just mount the resistors to a big slab of aliminium or a big heatsink out of something. No PCB or anything, just a series of resistors wired together, with a few molex connectors attached. If you want to use ready made Rs I'd suggest a metal container filled with water. The water will sink 750w for a while. And if it gets hot, just pour more cold in. However I wouldnt buy those. I'd get a reel of resistance wire, constantan, and make the right resistances with that. Its easier, quicker and cheaper. Just string the length of wire you need between 2 bolts with wires attached, and bear in mind the wire can get red hot, so must be mounted sensibly. A quick look at a 1kw electric fire will give you a ruogh idea what you'll be dealing with when you've got most of 750w coming out of it, and what sort of construction you need to survive it. If I could make it an RC load that would be great.. but it would all still have to be simple and mount on a big heatsink.. delicate PCBs are not an option.. (I have no means to make them, and I don't have a small delicate iron either). sounds like it'd be too hard for you to switch your loads fast, it would mean some electronics. Then again there is another way... make one o your load Rs non inductive, which you do by avoiding loops or coils, and connect it to the psu via a bare wire end resting on a rough surfaced copper strip (eg slating tingle from builders merchants). Running the bare wire end gently and quickly along the rough strip as you test will create rapidly changing load currents. Basic but should do the job just fine. Quickest way to make rough copper is get some very coarse sandpaper and a mallet, and whack the sand into the copper a bit. I will try your suggestions re parallell resitors and ohms law.. I did try applying ohms law.. but when it worked out to 0.67ohms to draw 18amps @ 12v I thought I royally screwed up my calculations.. (I was expecting a couple of hundred ohms). 0.67 ohm is correct Upon looking, my current DMM only handles 10A.. so I'll have to find a better one or just calculate amperage like you said.. another way is to use several identical resistance in parallel, and put the meter in series with just one of them. This may suit you well. I suppose analogue meter movements still only handle 10A too ? pocket multimeters usually yes, dedicated ammeters come in whatever range you want. Look for 'ammeter' on ebay. Age doesnt matter. Avoid anything described as a 'hot wire ammeter' but youre unlikely to find one of those antiques. Obviously I can't afford a $1000 fluke bench meter.. (as much as I would like one) Speaking of equipment.. I read it's possible to use a software O'Scope which works off the sound card.. (one probe connects to line out, the other to line in).. is this suitable for checking AC ripple in the psu output ? (I don't need precision, just a good estimate) I don't have access to a CRO to use/borrow and it's another tool that is way beyond my budget.. (if it's more than $50 it's past my budget) Sounds like a good idea. Theyre not perfect but will give you a lot more info than no scope. The sound input would go to the +5 or +12 line via a small capacitor, and the monitoring puter's ground goes to the psu 0v line. I like Konstantin Zeldovich's scope, osc251, for which google. Theres also the BIP scope. Both are free and need no external hardware. NT |
#7
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PSU load tester
In article , "Skeleton Man"
wrote: There are quite a few ways to create the load but if you want to use load resistors, so be it. How did you plan on mounting and cooling them? Merely hooking up this load for a few minutes isn't going to tell you much rather than running long term and this means you have significant heat (750W) to be rid of. Honestly, I was thinking just mount the resistors to a big slab of aliminium or a big heatsink out of something. No PCB or anything, just a series of resistors wired together, with a few molex connectors attached. I used heavy copper house wiring. You want solid copper, so the wires work as a "ladder" or mechanical framework for the loading of one output. I also used an 80mm fan blowing over my collection of resistors. You could buy a terminal block, and bolt the wire "ladders" to terminal block screws. The terminal blocks can be screwed down to a piece of wood (a refinement I didn't bother with). snip A large purely resistive load seems to be the norm for most places when it comes to testing a PSU.. I did see a variation that used 2 car headlamps and about 8 transistors.. I don't understand what the purpose of the transistors is though... The schematic is he http://www.kbt-dc-supplies.com/tester.php The purpose of that schematic, is the transistors amplify the effect of the pot on the left. By varying the bias created by the pot, the designer is hoping to vary the conductivity of the transistors. Be aware that light bulbs have a ratio between "cold start amps" and "running amps", that makes them unsuitable for a precision load. You could end up in a situation where the light bulbs trip out the overload protection on the supply, if you connect them all cold. If you had a bunch of light bulbs running in parallel, switching them on one at a time, would reduce the magnitude of that effect. The above schematic is ideal for the purpose, in the sense that turning the pot from zero to a finite value, gives you the ability to adjust for the desired current - with just light bulbs, the cold start amps are there instantly when switched on. The resistance of the tungsten wire inside the bulb changes with temperature, as you would expect, and the cold resistance is lower than the hot resistance. snip Upon looking, my current DMM only handles 10A.. so I'll have to find a better one or just calculate amperage like you said.. I suppose analogue meter movements still only handle 10A too ? Obviously I can't afford a $1000 fluke bench meter.. (as much as I would like one) I use one of these - 380947 on the lower right. It is a clamp-on AC and DC ammeter. You just clamp it around a wire and it measures the current, with no voltage drop. It detects the magnetic field. The internal detector is presumably a Hall Probe. I used this on my car last winter, set to DC, turned on Peak Hold, and when the starter in my car would not turn, it told me the car battery was supplying 180 amps. I've worked on my central air conditioning, which is 220VAC, without getting electrocuted. Simply clamp around an AC wire feeding the compressor or fan motor. And on PCs, you can take all the red wires on the ATX 20 pin cable, put them inside the clamp jaws, and the meter adds the current in the wires together, giving you total DC amps through the wires. Very handy, fast to connect to the problem area, and non-contact. The only thing you cannot do, is connect the meter around an AC power cord, as the current flow in the two wires flows in opposite directions and the magnetic fields cancel - to measure AC appliance power, you need access to _one_ of the wires in the cord: http://www.extechproducts.com/produc...41_942_947.pdf Chris Another parameters you can measure is rail noise. But that is a hard measurement to make, and requires great care in how the oscilloscope is connected. The problem is, the switching of the power supply, gets coupled into the test leads, and makes the noise look worse than it is. You can also look at transient response (look at voltage when current is 10 amps, then increase current flow to 20 amps instantly, and see whether the voltage takes a temporary dip). Again, that would be a hard thing to measure if you don't have a real storage oscilloscope. I think a DC constant load, is the cheapest thing you can construct. Anything else will blow your budget. I use my PSU load tester, as a quick test for a couple hours, that the PSU is stable, before I connect it to a new computer. I designed the resistors to simulate the loading of a real computer, and 750W is way above what mine does. That is a lot of heat to get rid of. Paul |
#8
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PSU load tester
Skeleton Man wrote:
Something like the following might be convenient, especially if you have some large heatsinks lying around (or reasonably thick aluminum sheeting, say 0.1" or thicker) and can put it all onto your own PCB (though if screwed or bolted down I suppose you could air-wire it instead but it might look a bit messy). http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=RES1406 Those do look convenient, Not really, you need too many of them for a decent wattage. You'd be a lot better off with resistance wire or bulbs. but as I will be air-wiring everything, I don't think it would be possible. I mean there's no way that wire small enough to attach to the terminals of that package, would handle 1amp, letalone 24A. That may be my problem in general.. finding and working with wire that will handle such a high current.. That wire is clearly in use from the power supply. I would assume the 24A from the PSU would be combined from all the molex connectors and I couldn't draw that from a single connector ? Yep, thats why there is more than one say 12V wire. |
#9
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PSU load tester
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:05:21 -0400, "Skeleton Man"
wrote: Something like the following might be convenient, especially if you have some large heatsinks lying around (or reasonably thick aluminum sheeting, say 0.1" or thicker) and can put it all onto your own PCB (though if screwed or bolted down I suppose you could air-wire it instead but it might look a bit messy). http://www.bgmicro.com/prodinfo.asp?prodid=RES1406 Those do look convenient, but as I will be air-wiring everything, I don't think it would be possible. I mean there's no way that wire small enough to attach to the terminals of that package, would handle 1amp, letalone 24A. That may be my problem in general.. finding and working with wire that will handle such a high current.. I would assume the 24A from the PSU would be combined from all the molex connectors and I couldn't draw that from a single connector ? It is a TO220 part with 0.2" lead spacing. You should be able to wrap, offhand I'd guess about 10 gauge wire around it if you had a need to, but you don't, 1 amp is handled easily by quite small wire. You wouldn't have 1 amp though, that's only the loss, not what remains through the circuit. With 10 Ohm 20W resistors you have enough wattage rating that you would not need to parallel resistors so they'd all be in series. You'd be wiring from PSU to one resistor, to the next, etc and so on until PSU ground, with the wire connecting them carrying the entire current you were testing (like 24A or whatever). Common 12 ga. copper wire would suffice, likely even higher but I hesitate to recommend much higher without knowing what this 750W PSU is, it could have quite a bit (more) 5V current than 12V. Just keep in mind that while this small TO220 package can be convenient, if your heatsink isn't very dense it doesn't necessarily mean you should mount them all very closely to each other rather than space out some. Even so, supposing that 24A figure I pulled out of thin air previously , that's still 20 of them in series which is already a non-small sized heatsink. You'd mentioned an amplifier heatsink... I don't know of any amp heatsinks meant to handle 750W, or at least not that would be so invaluable to be parted out for a 'sink instead of repaired and used as an amp. You'd be wanting closer to 10 amplifier heatsinks, or to submerge fewer heatsinks in liquid or strong fan-forced airflow on them. |
#10
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PSU load tester
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:21:07 -0400, "Skeleton Man"
wrote: There are quite a few ways to create the load but if you want to use load resistors, so be it. How did you plan on mounting and cooling them? Merely hooking up this load for a few minutes isn't going to tell you much rather than running long term and this means you have significant heat (750W) to be rid of. Honestly, I was thinking just mount the resistors to a big slab of aliminium or a big heatsink out of something. Emphasis on BIG. Normally you wouldn't be able to get just the slab of aluminum for double your proposed budget, but for all I know you might have some already. No PCB or anything, just a series of resistors wired together, with a few molex connectors attached. There are resistors inside extruded aluminum casings to help 'sink them but that's a massive heatsink if you were to try to passively remove 750W, I'd suggest something more like a large aluminum tube with a fan blowing through the middle, or oil cooling or (your inventiveness, budget and skill in fabricating something will determine what your (subjective) best approach is. I saw those resistors you speak of.. 50W, 30ohm on ebay for $2/piece.. I was thinking bolt them to a big heatsink of some variety.. whatever I could get my hands on from something dead (amp/hifi, etc). Budget is as cheap as possible.. $10 - $15 would great.. ideally no more than about $25.. I think your budget might be unrealistic for building a 750W load tester, unless you did it like meow2222 suggested and used some resistive wire and a crude wrap-it-around-bolts or placed it in a liquid cooling bath. You may need quite a bit of liquid though, to get a reasonably long test you may find 750W heats it up quite a bit, as that liquid still has to disperse it's heat too. For a moment I had a thought of a bathtub but I'm not going to mention that, it would be worth a little more work and expense to not have a 750W PSU or the tester (person) near a large tub full of water. Skill in fabricating is zero.. I can drill holes in a chunk of metal and put a few bolts in.. if it involves cutting or shaping anything or making a PCB, it's outta the question.. Well.... you gotta learn sometime if you want to tackle these kinds of projects. It's not too hard to cut aluminum though, at least if it's not very thick you can get by with common woodworking tools so long as you don't let them clog up. Mainly it's just about what you can safely decide on to remove the heat. Pick a method and work on it from there. It need not be pretty if you don't care what it looks like, but ideally you'd have something that can be reused and doesn't short out the PSU (even though any decent PSU should be able to shut down in such an event, it's not like you want to risk it if that's avoidable). Understood, but remember that a resistive load tester will only qualify the PSU for running a constant, resistive load. A computer is a highly variable capacitive load too. A constant resistive load is *easier* for a PSU if it has the capacity to do it at all. A large purely resistive load seems to be the norm for most places when it comes to testing a PSU.. Yes, unfortunately, but at least it's a start and the only reasonable target for the budget. did see a variation that used 2 car headlamps and about 8 transistors.. I don't understand what the purpose of the transistors is though... Well headlamps are typically 110W or less, IIRC, and that only on the 12V rail. Transistors can have their gain raised to change current, or produce heat that's sunk away, be a load themselves. The schematic is he http://www.kbt-dc-supplies.com/tester.php If I could make it an RC load that would be great.. but it would all still have to be simple and mount on a big heatsink.. delicate PCBs are not an option.. (I have no means to make them, and I don't have a small delicate iron either). I don't know about delicate (circuit board), it would have to mount a few dozen resistive devices (or whatever), a giant sized heatsink (or have the sink and board mounted separately to a chassis and connected at the 'sunk parts), and be handling 750W. The resistive elements would be quite hot and their leads would be too so for that reason it should have traces even larger than what would be necessary to carry the current. That is, if you wanted it to last long term. Even so, it's obviously not a necessity and beyond what you're willing to tackle for the project. I will try your suggestions re parallell resitors and ohms law.. I did try applying ohms law.. but when it worked out to 0.67ohms to draw 18amps @ 12v I thought I royally screwed up my calculations.. (I was expecting a couple of hundred ohms). That right. The main things I want to test are thermal/overload protection, fan speed/noise at different loads, and voltage readings at different loads.. (e.g. do I still get 12V with it loaded to 700W or does it look more like 10V). We can expect a typical 750W PSU to have well over 10A on at least 2, probably 3 or more rails. Make sure your (DMM with current feature) is rated for this current. Most aren't, on consumer grade DMM 10A is a common limit. The other option would be to meaure the voltage drop across one of the resistors and calculate it out (Ohms law again). Upon looking, my current DMM only handles 10A.. so I'll have to find a better one or just calculate amperage like you said.. I suppose analogue meter movements still only handle 10A too ? Obviously I can't afford a $1000 fluke bench meter.. (as much as I would like one) Just calculate it out then, that's essentially what a meter does anyway, it has a precision internal resistance which it measures the voltage across (and a fuse of course, which would blow... well, not all meters have the high current fuse unfortunately, some of the cheapest have only the mA-range fuse). Speaking of equipment.. I read it's possible to use a software O'Scope which works off the sound card.. (one probe connects to line out, the other to line in).. is this suitable for checking AC ripple in the psu output ? No, the magnitude might be too high. The frequency range is a bit low too. Typical scopes work in the several to several hundred MHz ranges. |
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