Questions about SATA hot-swapping . . .

Greetings all,

I want to setup a couple of hot-swap bays on my computer. I want to use
those removable hard drive assemblies that one installs in 5 ¼ inch drive
bays.

I will be running Windows XP Pro.

What I want to do, is have one master IDE drive in the computer, for booting
on, but I want to use the removable SATA drives for everything else.

I want to be able to plug and unplug them willy-nilly while the system is
still running.

I think this is doable.

I have come to learn that not all SATA controllers are equal, so I need to
know which of the available motherboards will support SATA hot-swapping?
(Athlon 32-bit - socket A)

It may well be, that I will have to install a new PCI SATA controller. That
is okay, but again, which controllers work?

Who out there has been hot-swapping SATA drives? What can you tell me about
it?
Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process? Or can I
just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

How safe are SATA drives? I have been reading about the 137GB Windows limit
on drive size. And have read that some people have lost data by plugging a
large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS system that does not have large
drive support enabled. Does anyone know if this danger exists with SATA
drives as well?

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy hot-swappers. I
want to know that it is really the way to go.

Anyone?

Thanks all,

- Stan Shankman

Previously Stan Shankman wrote:
Greetings all,

I want to setup a couple of hot-swap bays on my computer. I want to use
those removable hard drive assemblies that one installs in 5 ¼ inch drive
bays.

I will be running Windows XP Pro.

What I want to do, is have one master IDE drive in the computer, for booting
on, but I want to use the removable SATA drives for everything else.

I want to be able to plug and unplug them willy-nilly while the system is
still running.

I think this is doable.

I have come to learn that not all SATA controllers are equal, so I need to
know which of the available motherboards will support SATA hot-swapping?
(Athlon 32-bit - socket A)

It may well be, that I will have to install a new PCI SATA controller. That
is okay, but again, which controllers work?

Who out there has been hot-swapping SATA drives? What can you tell me about
it?
Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process? Or can I
just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

How safe are SATA drives? I have been reading about the 137GB Windows limit
on drive size. And have read that some people have lost data by plugging a
large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS system that does not have large
drive support enabled. Does anyone know if this danger exists with SATA
drives as well?

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy hot-swappers. I
want to know that it is really the way to go.

I went with USB for hot-swap, since it does not work for SATA and Linux
at the moment. It is not only the question whether the controller
supports it, the OS has also to with the specific controller. I think
the OS can support it even if the controller does not in some cases.

IMO too young technology to be usable that way, except for some
RAID controllers that specifically support this.

Arno

Stan Shankman wrote:
Greetings all,

I want to setup a couple of hot-swap bays on my computer. I want to
use those removable hard drive assemblies that one installs in 5 ¼
inch drive bays.

I will be running Windows XP Pro.

What I want to do, is have one master IDE drive in the computer, for
booting on, but I want to use the removable SATA drives for
everything else.

I want to be able to plug and unplug them willy-nilly while the
system is still running.

I think this is doable.

I have come to learn that not all SATA controllers are equal, so I
need to know which of the available motherboards will support SATA
hot-swapping? (Athlon 32-bit - socket A)

It may well be, that I will have to install a new PCI SATA
controller. That is okay, but again, which controllers work?

Who out there has been hot-swapping SATA drives? What can you tell me
about it?
Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process? Or
can I just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

How safe are SATA drives?

Just as 'safe' as PATA drives, what you are calling IDE.

I have been reading about the 137GB Windows limit on drive
size. And have read that some people have lost data by
plugging a large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS
system that does not have large drive support enabled.

Yes, its a real problem.

Does anyone know if this danger exists with SATA drives as well?

Yes.

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy
hot-swappers. I want to know that it is really the way to go.

Anyone?

Stan Shankmanwrote:
Greetings all,

I want to setup a couple of hot-swap bays on my computer. I want to
use
those removable hard drive assemblies that one installs in 5 ¼ inch
drive
bays.

I will be running Windows XP Pro.

What I want to do, is have one master IDE drive in the computer, for
booting
on, but I want to use the removable SATA drives for everything
else.

I want to be able to plug and unplug them willy-nilly while the
system is
still running.

I think this is doable.

I have come to learn that not all SATA controllers are equal, so I
need to
know which of the available motherboards will support SATA
hot-swapping?
(Athlon 32-bit - socket A)

It may well be, that I will have to install a new PCI SATA
controller. That
is okay, but again, which controllers work?

Who out there has been hot-swapping SATA drives? What can you tell
me about
it?
Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process?
Or can I
just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

How safe are SATA drives? I have been reading about the 137GB
Windows limit
on drive size. And have read that some people have lost data by
plugging a
large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS system that does not have
large
drive support enabled. Does anyone know if this danger exists with
SATA
drives as well?

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy
hot-swappers. I
want to know that it is really the way to go.

Anyone?

Thanks all,

- Stan Shankman

As far as I'm aware, all SATA's are hot swapable. It's not a question
of capability, it's a question of the actual plug itself. The ground
is shorter, thereby connecting last. This eliminates any sparks.
IDE isn't hot swapable because all the pins are the same length.
It's really as simple as that.

That said, I really don't recommend using 5 1/4 bay solutions. The
problem is heat. I used this setup and fried a drive because the
cheapo cooling fan in the hard drive tray died.

Made sure you don't buy cheap quick trays! Make sure they have ball
bearing fans and stay away from Maxtor hard drives. They're very
warm running units.

Cheers

Stan Shankman wrote:
Greetings all,

I want to setup a couple of hot-swap bays on my computer. I want to use
those removable hard drive assemblies that one installs in 5 ¼ inch drive
bays.

I will be running Windows XP Pro.

What I want to do, is have one master IDE drive in the computer, for booting
on, but I want to use the removable SATA drives for everything else.

I want to be able to plug and unplug them willy-nilly while the system is
still running.

I think this is doable.

I have come to learn that not all SATA controllers are equal, so I need to
know which of the available motherboards will support SATA hot-swapping?
(Athlon 32-bit - socket A)

It may well be, that I will have to install a new PCI SATA controller. That
is okay, but again, which controllers work?

Who out there has been hot-swapping SATA drives? What can you tell me about
it?
Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process?

Yes, you will. You need to make sure the system is aware that your are
going to remove the storage device so that it can flush any buffers.
Once the system tells you it is safe to remove the device, then you may
remove it.


Or can I
just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

You can do that, but then expect Windows to generate 'unsafe device
removal' messages and delayed write faults. If you have no need for the
data on the drive (ever again), then no problem. If the data has any
value, don't do it.


How safe are SATA drives? I have been reading about the 137GB Windows limit
on drive size. And have read that some people have lost data by plugging a
large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS system that does not have large
drive support enabled. Does anyone know if this danger exists with SATA
drives as well?

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy hot-swappers. I
want to know that it is really the way to go.

Anyone?

Thanks all,

- Stan Shankman



There are two issues.

1) Hot Plugging: that ability to install and remove hardware with the
system running. SATA connectors are designed to support that provided
you use a slot mounted arrangement and are not manually plugging cables
onto the drive.

2) System considerations: Your system needs to support hot swapping. It
must be able to know when you plan to remove a device and quiesce any
activity to it. All transactions in progress must be allowed to
complete. Then there needs to me a means to signal to the user that the
device may be removed.


You need both.

Just adding some sort of tray and slide only addresses one issue.

You should also make sure the drivers on your system support the devices
you plan to use.

Craigm

Previously dannysdailys wrote:
As far as I'm aware, all SATA's are hot swapable. It's not a question
of capability, it's a question of the actual plug itself. The ground
is shorter, thereby connecting last. This eliminates any sparks.
IDE isn't hot swapable because all the pins are the same length.
It's really as simple as that.

Unfortunately it is not that simple. Electrically you are correct.
But the controller needs to re-negotiate and give enough data back
to the OS for the process to work. Is seems the Linux driver writers
have found some SATA controllers that do not provide this information.
See here under "hotplug":

http://linux.yyz.us/sata/software-status.html

That said, I really don't recommend using 5 1/4 bay solutions. The
problem is heat. I used this setup and fried a drive because the
cheapo cooling fan in the hard drive tray died.

Made sure you don't buy cheap quick trays! Make sure they have ball
bearing fans and stay away from Maxtor hard drives. They're very
warm running units.

I completely agree to this.

Arno

Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process?

Yes, you will. You need to make sure the system is aware that your are
going to remove the storage device so that it can flush any buffers.
Once the system tells you it is safe to remove the device, then you may
remove it.

That is very true. So far only RAID controllers allow for removal and insert
of hard drives without telling OS to do something.
This is a biggest misconception about hot plug. People think that they can
unplug hard drives without telling OS their planned actions, once devices
are "hot pluggable". Maybe they are "hot pluggable" but not "hot
unpluggable", at least from the OS point.

Or can I
just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

You can do that, but then expect Windows to generate 'unsafe device
removal' messages and delayed write faults. If you have no need for the
data on the drive (ever again), then no problem. If the data has any
value, don't do it.


How safe are SATA drives? I have been reading about the 137GB Windows
limit
on drive size. And have read that some people have lost data by plugging
a
large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS system that does not have large
drive support enabled. Does anyone know if this danger exists with SATA
drives as well?

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy hot-swappers. I
want to know that it is really the way to go.

Anyone?

Thanks all,

- Stan Shankman



There are two issues.

1) Hot Plugging: that ability to install and remove hardware with the
system running. SATA connectors are designed to support that provided
you use a slot mounted arrangement and are not manually plugging cables
onto the drive.

2) System considerations: Your system needs to support hot swapping. It
must be able to know when you plan to remove a device and quiesce any
activity to it. All transactions in progress must be allowed to
complete. Then there needs to me a means to signal to the user that the
device may be removed.


You need both.

Just adding some sort of tray and slide only addresses one issue.

You should also make sure the drivers on your system support the devices
you plan to use.

Craigm

"dannysdailys" wrote in message
Stan Shankmanwrote:
Greetings all,

I want to setup a couple of hot-swap bays on my computer. I want to use
those removable hard drive assemblies that one installs in 5 ¼ inch drive
bays.

I will be running Windows XP Pro.

What I want to do, is have one master IDE drive in the computer, for booting
on, but I want to use the removable SATA drives for everything else.

I want to be able to plug and unplug them willy-nilly while the system is
still running.

I think this is doable.

I have come to learn that not all SATA controllers are equal, so I need to
know which of the available motherboards will support SATA hot-swapping?
(Athlon 32-bit - socket A)

It may well be, that I will have to install a new PCI SATA controller. That
is okay, but again, which controllers work?

Who out there has been hot-swapping SATA drives? What can you tell me about
it?
Will I have to go through some kind of mount and dismount process? Or can I
just unplug the drive anytime I wish?

How safe are SATA drives? I have been reading about the 137GB Windows limit
on drive size. And have read that some people have lost data by plugging a
large capacity drive into a Windows NTFS system that does not have large
drive support enabled. Does anyone know if this danger exists with SATA
drives as well?

But mostly, I would like to hear some reports from happy hot-swappers. I
want to know that it is really the way to go.

Anyone?

Thanks all,

- Stan Shankman

As far as I'm aware, all SATA's are hot swapable. It's not a
question of capability, it's a question of the actual plug itself.

Which makes it hot plugable, not hot swapable

The ground is shorter, thereby connecting last.
This eliminates any sparks.

ROTFLOL!

IDE isn't hot swapable because all the pins are the same length.

Same as with SCSI.

It's really as simple as that.

Clueless, as always.


That said, I really don't recommend using 5 1/4 bay solutions. The
problem is heat. I used this setup and fried a drive because the
cheapo cooling fan in the hard drive tray died.

Made sure you don't buy cheap quick trays! Make sure they have ball
bearing fans and stay away from Maxtor hard drives. They're very
warm running units.

Cheers

http://www.driveswap.com/

I found this link. Has anyone here used this software?

- Stan