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#1
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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array
I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard. It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1 array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives. The O/S is Win XP SP2. All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array). However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard succesfully). The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped). All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it whilst having a RAID array. I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data. - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back? - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it with specific considerations? - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD? Thanks in advance, D. |
#2
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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array
It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what
happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was attached prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:, etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached. For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the external enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running, the system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make sure the enclosures are shutdown. The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE channels, it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install doesn't match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up now. The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have exacerbated the problem too. I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the IDE drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives (probably as D. Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is, install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG). Only requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive. When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will only boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C. This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive for my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped) array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste. Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there can be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many mobo's insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions. And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive for my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard. It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1 array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives. The O/S is Win XP SP2. All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array). However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard succesfully). The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped). All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it whilst having a RAID array. I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data. - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back? - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it with specific considerations? - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD? Thanks in advance, D. |
#3
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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array
Jim,
This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably haven't experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it. My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due to the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed successfully without any Windows re-install. I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old Windows install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a system-option; how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts. I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I can see the Blue Screen error: *** Begin*** A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps: Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard drives or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is properly configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive corruption, and then restart your computer. Technical information: *** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000) *** End*** I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and long-check option). I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when connected with my SATA array. In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA array is the first boot device and the IDE the second. What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added (physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This tends to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk test and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD. I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on a 80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll try it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always been) working on). D. "Jim" wrote in message news:7bhaf.16178$i%.11098@fed1read07... It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was attached prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:, etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached. For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the external enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running, the system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make sure the enclosures are shutdown. The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE channels, it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install doesn't match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up now. The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have exacerbated the problem too. I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the IDE drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives (probably as D. Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is, install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG). Only requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive. When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will only boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C. This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive for my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped) array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste. Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there can be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many mobo's insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions. And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive for my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard. It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1 array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives. The O/S is Win XP SP2. All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array). However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard succesfully). The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped). All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it whilst having a RAID array. I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data. - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back? - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it with specific considerations? - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD? Thanks in advance, D. |
#4
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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array
Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm not
quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array to boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to get your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct? Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks. Option #2 is free, but slightly more complex. Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can be had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em). Because the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like, including imaging the OS on the SATA drive. Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD. Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll walk you through the process. The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying problem. You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA drive to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that SATA install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive to CD\DVD media if you prefer. Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you made sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice four entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero address represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition (usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this point, the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable is really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if that proves useful. But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a long term solution by side-stepping the problem. HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... Jim, This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably haven't experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it. My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due to the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed successfully without any Windows re-install. I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old Windows install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a system-option; how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts. I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I can see the Blue Screen error: *** Begin*** A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps: Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard drives or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is properly configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive corruption, and then restart your computer. Technical information: *** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000) *** End*** I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and long-check option). I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when connected with my SATA array. In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA array is the first boot device and the IDE the second. What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added (physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This tends to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk test and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD. I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on a 80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll try it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always been) working on). D. "Jim" wrote in message news:7bhaf.16178$i%.11098@fed1read07... It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was attached prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:, etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached. For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the external enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running, the system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make sure the enclosures are shutdown. The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE channels, it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install doesn't match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up now. The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have exacerbated the problem too. I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the IDE drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives (probably as D. Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is, install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG). Only requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive. When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will only boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C. This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive for my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped) array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste. Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there can be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many mobo's insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions. And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive for my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard. It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1 array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives. The O/S is Win XP SP2. All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array). However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard succesfully). The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped). All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it whilst having a RAID array. I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data. - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back? - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it with specific considerations? - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD? Thanks in advance, D. |
#5
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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array
Jim,
You have a very good point; I had been planning to move this setup to a USB or fireware enabled removable drive setup. Before I do, I also have Acronis 8.0. So, given I don't have the removable drive option at home, I decided to boot from the Acronis CD-ROM. I changed the BIOS to have my DVD drive as the first boot device (with all other bo0t devices set to 'None') ... and the IDE drive attached. The result is that the PC still boots from the SATA RAID array, bringing windows up!!! This was most unexpected and shows that there is more at play here... I've googled re the mobo (GA-KA8NXP-SLI) and sata, ide etc and found several sources of people were having drive problems. Unfortunately none seem to be attemptin a RAID array and a non-raided IDE drive. From them, there were interesting comments to note: http://groups.google.com.au/group/al...3bde4f7e5248e9 As you may or may not be aware, the on-board RAID controllers are not true hardware RAID controllers, and therefore need specific Windows based drivers to perform the RAID functions, and as such are vulnerable to corruption caused by software conflicts/crashes within windows. On the other hand, a fully hardware based RAID controller is transparent to, and completely independent of the OS used on the PC, and does not require any drivers to be loaded into the OS for it's correct operation. I assume this would result in the arrays on a true hardware based controller being less vulnerable to software issues within the OS. If the above is true, I am not sure that Acronis (or Bootitng) will be able to copy the SATA array as it won't have a driver like windows to interpret it. The above, if true, also leads me to think that a RAID array implemented with software (which I didn't know) is less robust. I had chosen to implement a RAID-1 array to make my data more secure! That post also alludes to a 'nVidia hardware/BIOS/driver issue/conflict'.... That fact that there are a number of posts/forums where there are issues with RAID arrays on this mobo doesn't look good. I am now going to try and only have the IDE cabled in and boot from the Acronis CD which should tell me more. If that doesn;t work, I'll attach the IDE HDD to the same cable my DVD drive is on .... maybe a bad IDE cable??? I'll tell you how I go. D. "Jim" wrote in message news:4Mgbf.17451$i%.12965@fed1read07... Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm not quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array to boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to get your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct? Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks. Option #2 is free, but slightly more complex. Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can be had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em). Because the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like, including imaging the OS on the SATA drive. Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD. Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll walk you through the process. The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying problem. You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA drive to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that SATA install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive to CD\DVD media if you prefer. Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you made sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice four entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero address represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition (usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this point, the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable is really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if that proves useful. But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a long term solution by side-stepping the problem. HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... Jim, This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably haven't experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it. My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due to the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed successfully without any Windows re-install. I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old Windows install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a system-option; how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts. I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I can see the Blue Screen error: *** Begin*** A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps: Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard drives or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is properly configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive corruption, and then restart your computer. Technical information: *** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000) *** End*** I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and long-check option). I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when connected with my SATA array. In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA array is the first boot device and the IDE the second. What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added (physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This tends to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk test and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD. I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on a 80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll try it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always been) working on). D. "Jim" wrote in message news:7bhaf.16178$i%.11098@fed1read07... It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was attached prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:, etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached. For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the external enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running, the system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make sure the enclosures are shutdown. The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE channels, it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install doesn't match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up now. The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have exacerbated the problem too. I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the IDE drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives (probably as D. Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is, install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG). Only requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive. When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will only boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C. This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive for my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped) array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste. Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there can be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many mobo's insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions. And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive for my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard. It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1 array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives. The O/S is Win XP SP2. All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array). However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard succesfully). The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped). All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it whilst having a RAID array. I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data. - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back? - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it with specific considerations? - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD? Thanks in advance, D. |
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Changing Harddrives whilst PC includes a RAID Array
Jim, I did some more experimenting... Booting from Acronis CD after re-attaching IDE drive to system didn't work (can't remember the detail now, I've done so much in the last couple of hrs). I moved the IDE drive to the same cable as the DVD burner and that didn't work either. I detached both SATA drives and booted from Acronis Cd again ... and Acronis can see the IDE drive now! Still seems to be when IDE and RAID are bot on machine ... I did find a peculair problem with the way the BIOS works.... the 4 settings 'IDE [Primary/MASter] [Master/Slave] RAID' need to be all 'Disabled' in my case to ensure that RAID is not being 'attempted'(?) on my IDE drive. Secondly, whenever the 2 settings 'On=Chip IDE Channel[0/1]' are disabled and then re-enabled, yu must go back to the 'Standard CMOS Features' and set the IDE Channel devices to AUTO (otherwise the disable/enable has forced them to 'NONE'!). After this, I ensure that the RAID array is the first of the HDD boot priority followed by the IDE HDD. Now I have the IDE (and DVD) devices being detected on boot startup (which I probably had before but have changed various BIOS settings and not discovery the full impact of this disable-enable). Presuming that the system partition on the IDE drive was perhaps an issue, I then I booted of the Win XP Pro CD and chose to delete the partition on the IDE drive. When I then re-booted, I got back to the origional BSOD with the same error code as before. So I removed the IDE drive thinking the RAID array would be okay as before (and at worst, get the dirty bit set on D: and E. Wrong! Even worse, Windows came back: "Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt. \Windows\system32\config\system" I now *potentially* put this down to using the Win XP CD to remove the IDE partition without having F6-loaded the NVidia RAID drivers ... imagining that XP has corrupted the Windows install on the RAID array as with no RAID driver it sees the two underlying disks.... Panic set in as it looked like I may have lost it all. I used Win XP CD to boot again but this time loading the Nvidia RAID drivers. I then went to recovery console and could see all my partitions (on a single disk, due to the RAID driver). Phew - it looked like all the files were there. The referenced \Windows\system32\config\system file was there timestamped at approx the time I deleted the IDE partition (as well as other files tstp'ed at the same time in same dir). As I didn't want to start to play with recovery console commands I knew nothing about, I decided to attempt to re-boot off the RAID array and try 'Last known good config' .... and low and behold Windows came up under the RAID array! I had run nothing other than help commands under the recovery console and a 'bootcfg /list' and 'bootcfg /scan'; the list showed 'no boot entries' and the scan '1 windows install - C:\Windows'. However, I was *not* asked to choose the only install ([1]) *nor* ran bootcfg /add nor /rebuild. I am now at the point that I will not recable the IDE HDD; instead your option 1 of moving it to a USB or firewaire enclosure seems the only safe option. Any opinion re USB or firewire (re which tends to normally 'just work'; transfer speeds, and portability (obviously USB is better, right)). Note: DVD burning is not an option for backup as I have 50Gb of data (my wifes graphic design files!). Hopefully this may have ben helpful for someone with one of these Gigabyte M/Bs and decides: 1. Don't frig around with RAID, as additions of other drives later may cause you to lose all your data. I will now choose to not use RAID (and if absolutely had to do RAID, would only do it with full hardware support). Note: My RAID 1 setup has worked flawlessly for 6 months; it was just adding the extra IDE HDD that caused the issues., and 2. If you do need to add another drive, ensure you have a full backup via an option which doesn't require cabling internally a new drive. Regards, D. "D" wrote in message ... Jim, You have a very good point; I had been planning to move this setup to a USB or fireware enabled removable drive setup. Before I do, I also have Acronis 8.0. So, given I don't have the removable drive option at home, I decided to boot from the Acronis CD-ROM. I changed the BIOS to have my DVD drive as the first boot device (with all other bo0t devices set to 'None') ... and the IDE drive attached. The result is that the PC still boots from the SATA RAID array, bringing windows up!!! This was most unexpected and shows that there is more at play here... I've googled re the mobo (GA-KA8NXP-SLI) and sata, ide etc and found several sources of people were having drive problems. Unfortunately none seem to be attemptin a RAID array and a non-raided IDE drive. From them, there were interesting comments to note: http://groups.google.com.au/group/al...3bde4f7e5248e9 As you may or may not be aware, the on-board RAID controllers are not true hardware RAID controllers, and therefore need specific Windows based drivers to perform the RAID functions, and as such are vulnerable to corruption caused by software conflicts/crashes within windows. On the other hand, a fully hardware based RAID controller is transparent to, and completely independent of the OS used on the PC, and does not require any drivers to be loaded into the OS for it's correct operation. I assume this would result in the arrays on a true hardware based controller being less vulnerable to software issues within the OS. If the above is true, I am not sure that Acronis (or Bootitng) will be able to copy the SATA array as it won't have a driver like windows to interpret it. The above, if true, also leads me to think that a RAID array implemented with software (which I didn't know) is less robust. I had chosen to implement a RAID-1 array to make my data more secure! That post also alludes to a 'nVidia hardware/BIOS/driver issue/conflict'.... That fact that there are a number of posts/forums where there are issues with RAID arrays on this mobo doesn't look good. I am now going to try and only have the IDE cabled in and boot from the Acronis CD which should tell me more. If that doesn;t work, I'll attach the IDE HDD to the same cable my DVD drive is on .... maybe a bad IDE cable??? I'll tell you how I go. D. "Jim" wrote in message news:4Mgbf.17451$i%.12965@fed1read07... Ok, I think have a decent "lay of the land" here on this problem. I'm not quite sure what you did to actually cause the failure of the SATA array to boot when the IDE drive is attached, but since you did manage to get the transfer completed and drive wiped, what remains is finding some way to get your current SATA array backed up. I assume if your IDE drive is NOT attached, the SATA array will still boot, correct? Two solutions, option #1 is straight-forward, but costs a few bucks. Option #2 is free, but slightly more complex. Option #1: Get yourself a cheap USB enclosure for your IDE HD. These can be had for $25-35 online (see Dealsonic.com, they have loads of 'em). Because the interface is USB, all you have to do is boot the SATA array, power up the enclosure, and insert the USB cable. Windows will recognize it and whalla, you have access to the storage for whatever purposes you like, including imaging the OS on the SATA drive. Option #2 (should be done w/ SATA and IDE drives installed): Visit http://www.bootitng.com and make yourself either a bootable floppy or CD. Boot the floppy/CD, and when the Welcome screen appears, hit Cancel, and follow the prompts until you reach the partition manager. Now use the partition manager to COPY or IMAGE the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE drive. It should be fairly intuitive, but if not, let me know and I'll walk you through the process. The reason this should work is because we never are getting far enough to boot the SATA nor the IDE drive! Instead, the BootIt NG floppy or CD is being booted FIRST. Therefore, we can gain access to both the HDs and at least can perform a partition COPY or partition IMAGE operation from one drive to the other. Of course, this doesn't solve the underlying problem. You'll still need to disconnect the IDE drive before booting the SATA drive to avoid the blue screens. BUT, you will at least have a copy of that SATA install on the IDE drive. Heck, you can even image copy the SATA drive to CD\DVD media if you prefer. Btw, I see no reason the IDE drive wouldn't be bootable as long as you made sure you COPIED (as opposed to IMAGED) the SATA partition(s) over to the IDE drive, AND, made sure that the partition was marked bootable. From the partition manager, Hit "View MBR", and in the dialog, you will notice four entries in the MBR (Master Boot Record). Each entry w/ a non-zero address represents one of your COPIED partitions. Select the bootable partition (usually the first MBR entry), hit "Set Active", and the partition will indicate Active status. Now hit "Std MBR", this will initialize the boot loader in the MBR. Finally, hit Apply to save the changes. At this point, the IDE drive *should* be bootable using the installation copied from the SATA drive. Of course, I'm not sure that making the IDE drive bootable is really what you're after, I'm merely saying you could make it happen, if that proves useful. But again, none of this addresses the underlying problem, I'm merely suggesting how to solve the immediate problem of backing up the SATA installation. At least the use of an external USB enclosure provides a long term solution by side-stepping the problem. HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... Jim, This is a relatively new PC (6 months old) so your right, I probably haven't experienced all the [disk/boot] issues which are particular to it. My primary concern is to get a full backup of my data. To do this, due to the size (80Gb), I need to get the second harddrive config'ed successfully without any Windows re-install. I have reformatted the IDE drive, to remove any issue with the old Windows install on it. (I can't remember if it was formatted with a system-option; how do I tell?) It still blue screens and auto-restarts. I turned auto-restart off in my SATA-based Windows install; and know I can see the Blue Screen error: *** Begin*** A problem has been detected and Windows has been shut down to prevent damage to your computer. If this is the first time you've seen this Stop error screen, restart your computer. If this screen appears again, follow these steps: Check for viruses on your computer. Remove any newly installed hard drives or hard drive controllers. Check your hard drive to make sure it is properly configured and terminated. Run CHKDSK /F to check for hard drive corruption, and then restart your computer. Technical information: *** STOP: 0x0000007B (0xF79F7528, 0xC0000034, 0x00000000, 0x00000000) *** End*** I then ran IBM's disk fitness against the IDE drive (with only the IDE attached by cables); this was successful (in both Quick Check and long-check option). I tried another IBM IDE HDD and it errors with the exact same codes when connected with my SATA array. In all test cases, except where only the IDE HDD is attached, the SATA array is the first boot device and the IDE the second. What puzzles me is that the IDE HDD used to be attached and visible and allow SATA-based Windows to boot successfully (The IDE HDD was added (physically) after the SATA-based HDD Windows was installed). This tends to indicate to me that it is a hardware issue; combined with the disk test and the other IDE also tested .... but not the particular IDE HDD. I am now trying cabling options (although I have it set as the master on a 80' cable by itself on the black-end of the cable, nothing on the middle-grey end and the blue attached to the m/b as it should be). I'll try it on the IDE seperate IDE cable that the DVD burner is (and has always been) working on). D. "Jim" wrote in message news:7bhaf.16178$i%.11098@fed1read07... It's always difficult in a case like this to be positive about what happened. A lot of details here regarding boot sequence, what was attached prior and after OS installation, mobo idiosyncrasies, etc. That said, it sounds like you may have a case where the mobo drive assignments (C:, D:, etc.) are different when certain hardware components are attached. For example, I have several USB external HD enclosures. If I leave them running when I reboot my Abit AI7 mobo, then the "system" sees the external enclosure as the bootable drive, despite the fact I've told the BIOS it isn't. No matter what I do, if that USB external enclosure is running, the system INSISTS on trying to boot it. So w/ every reboot, I have to make sure the enclosures are shutdown. The same thing could be occurring w/ your IDE channels. Your BIOS and/or Windows may be insisting that if anything is attached to the IDE channels, it must be the bootable item. Of course, we know it isn't. I suspect the reason it gets to the XP logo and craps out is because it's NOT the new install, but the OLD install that's trying to boot. The old install doesn't match the new hardware, and well..., all kinds of problems can creep up now. The fact you added the IDE drive AFTER XP was installed may have exacerbated the problem too. I have several suggestions, perhaps none of them ideal. You could install XP on the RAID partition again, but this time make sure the IDE drive is attached and running at the time. XP will install the boot files on the IDE drive, of course, but the OS will be running off the RAID/SATA drives (probably as D. Another option, if you want to force the RAID/SATA drive to be C: is, install a boot manager on the PATA/IDE drive first (e.g., BootIt NG). Only requires a small 8-16mb partition. Now install XP on the RAID/SATA drive. When the system boots, it will boot the PATA/IDE drive, *but* that will only boot the boot manager! From there, your boot manager can boot XP (as C. This is what I've done on my system. I *always* use a small PATA drive for my boot manager, which in turn boot various OS's from my RAID0 (stripped) array (in my case, PATA/IDE too). I then use the remaining space on the PATA/IDE drive for additional partitions or storing image copies of partitions on the other drives, so it doesn't go to waste. Bottomline is, I know this varies a bit from vendor to vendor, but there can be problems in controlling boot order when mixing interfaces, despite whether the BIOS settings might lead you to believe otherwise. Many mobo's insist on a particular sequence that *may* not jive with your intentions. And that's what I suspect has happened in your case. To circumvent the problem, I've simply made it a habit to maintain a small PATA/IDE drive for my boot manager, then have the boot manager boot the various OS's I have installed. Sometimes you have to know when to NOT fight the system HTH Jim "D" wrote in message ... I've got a Gigabyte K8NXP-SLI motherboard. It has two RAID controller chips, of which I use one to controller a RAID 1 array of two Seagate ST3160827AS SATA 7200.8 160GB drives. The O/S is Win XP SP2. All was working fine, even after adding my old IDE harddrive from my old PC (continuing with the boot disk being the RAID 1 array). However, I wanted to wipe my old IDE drive to allow it to be used for backups... Before wiping it, I decided to make it the boot drive to bring my old install of XP up to allow me to run the transfer wizards to ensure I had all the settings and data I might need from the old HDD. (The old install of windows complained about hardware, given the install had occurred on my old PC, as expected. I was still able to run Transfer Wizard succesfully). The problem arose when I switched in BIOS to make the RAID array the boot disk. On boot, just before Windows XP shows it's logo, it would blue screen. The blue screen would flash by before I could read it and the system rebooted automaticaly. This occurred continuously. This was stopped by uncabling the old IDE drive, which allowed Win XP to start, but then I kept getting dirty bits on two of the partitions of the RAID drives (which after many repetative checkdisks, finally stopped). All seems to be working well again; but I've lost faith in being able to recong drives at will. I have re-configed drives in my PC for many years and never had this problem; although this is the first time I've done it whilst having a RAID array. I still want to be able to attach another HDD (with the RAID array remaing the boot drive) to allow backups of my significant volume of data (too much for DVD burn even - 50Gb), but am now wary of changing my config. I now know I can change Windows System option to not reboot automatically on crashing; to allow me to see the blue screen details, but am wary of cabling the IDE drive back in to further troubleshoot in case I lose all my data. - Why would changing the boot sequence and booting from an old windows install affect the RAID parition integrity and reverting the setup back? - Before cabling the IDE HDD back in, should I perform some action or add it with specific considerations? - Should I uncable the two SATA drives in the array, cable the IDE drive in and then run a harddisk test from a bootable CD? Thanks in advance, D. |
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