PSU load tester

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:23:26 GMT, VWWall
wrote:

kony wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:21:42 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:


Well headlamps are typically 110W or less, IIRC, and that only on the 12V rail.
Nope, they're fine on the other rails too.



Yes, but I meant using _one_ headlamp, was why I'd mentioned
the upper wattage I'd seen per one. It's going to be quite
the contraption to hook up enough headlamps to put a full
load on all rails of a 750W PSU, particularly the 3.3V and
5V rails. That doesn't make it undo-able but not so
convenient either unless one worked for a place that makes
or sells headlamps.

You don't need a "headlamp", all you need are the bulbs! Old time
headlights,(and taillights), did use separate bulbs.

Ok, but then you need a way to mount them and/or either to
solder or sockets.

Finding suitable
sockets might be a chore, but you can easily solder 12 gage wire to the
bulbs. You don't need that size for the current, but it's stiff enough
to hold the bulbs where you want. Left "floating" in the air, they will
easily dissipate their rated wattage.

I'm not arguing that bulbs couldn't work, but rather the
resulting project could be a little nicer looking, sturdier,
more compact, by avoiding bulbs. It may also be easer to
select different current going another route (depending on
the control method).


Old fashioned "knife" switches are
ideal for connecting as many lamps as required in parallel, and they
have terminals, so you don't even have to solder!

Yes if he has some, but if not, the project budget is
getting pretty tight as it is.



You can still find 6V lamps if you like to "see the light" on the 5V
rail. :-)

Google for "automobile lamps" to find amperage specs. The "inrush
current" of ~1A taillight is ideal for simulating the 12V start-up of a
hard drive motor. (Don't look for the 12V rail droop with a DVM, in
spite of what w_tom says!) ;-)


I'd think the inrush current would be better than nothing,
but not long enough duration (at an elevated level) to be a
good simulation.

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote
kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Well headlamps are typically 110W or less,
IIRC, and that only on the 12V rail.

Nope, they're fine on the other rails too.

Yes, but I meant using _one_ headlamp, was why
I'd mentioned the upper wattage I'd seen per one.

Still cant see what you are getting at there.

I meant your specific reference to the 12V rail.

For one, the # of headlamps isn't necessarily lower than
other types of resistors, could go either way, lower or higher.

There arent too many 100W class resistors readily buyable.

The one thing which seems more certain is it could
end up either costing more, or being very very large.

Dunno, most obviously with surplus bulbs from car wreckers.

Suppose a typical 55W headlamp, it's roughly 4.5A at the
slightly over 12V electical system of an automobile. You'll
need at least 6 for the 12V rail alone. Next we need a way
to re-rate the resistance for what it would be (slightly higher)

Lower, actually.

due to the element not getting as hot from the other (lower voltage)
PSU rails, but for simplicities' sake let's consider it a constant, 2.7Ohm

750W PSU is bound to have a fairly high 5V current (unless
we were told otherwise, that wattage rating has to account
for it, else we'd need even more amps on a different rail
instead which is still more bulbs). So let's suppose a
fairly modest 30A on 5V rail and 20A on 3.3V rail. Do you
see that we're now talking about a LOT of headlamps

Dont have to cost much tho if you get them from a car wrecker.

and that this entire setup may require a whole table or more?

Only if you use sealed beam headlights.

Sure it doesn't need heatsinks anymore
but it requires it's own zip code instead.

Cant see that its going to be any bigger than those
TO220 resistors if you dont use sealed beam headlights.

If anything bulbs give you more flexibility since you can plug in a
variety of different bulbs to get the load you want on a particular rail.

"Plug in" is easier written than rewired.

You must have noticed that headlights have sockets for the bulbs.

Yes it can work, and work fine at that. It does have it's own set
of trade-offs though, and that many headlamps are not going to
be so cheap unless there is a lower-than-normal cost source for them.

Thats what a car wrecker is.

Even being conservative and thinking $5 each,

You dont pay anything like that at a car wrecker.

that's well over the budget.

Nope.

That was only a 55W headlamp, but beggers can't be choosers,
a much higher wattage lamp may cost a lot more too. Again,
these were (@ 55W) about 2.7 Ohm each, so you may be paying
$5 (or more) per 2.7Ohm. Contrast that with 29 cents each
for the first 10 Ohm resistor I'd linked. So you need 4 of
them to reach close to 2.7Ohm, but it's still closer to $1 than =$5.

Pity about the car wreckers.

It's going to be quite the contraption to hook up
enough headlamps to put a full load on all rails
of a 750W PSU, particularly the 3.3V and 5V rails.

The resistance of the bulb wont change that much, if
anything the ones running on the the 3.3V and 5V rails
will have a lower resistance than they will on the 12V rail.

Agreed, but he'll still need to know how much it changes
for determination of load, for # of bulbs to buy,

Nope, just get a box full from the wreckers.

and it's still a whole lotta bulbs and space to build this
to test a 750W PSU. Maybe that's within the acceptible
project needs for the OP, I don't know... but if he has
a way to heatsink something else, it will tend to be
more expensive than other alternatives.

Nope.

That doesn't make it undo-able but not so convenient either
unless one worked for a place that makes or sells headlamps.

Dunno, in some ways bulbs are more flexible since you
can just plug in different wattage bulbs as required.

Does he have different wattage bulbs?

You can obviously get them from wreckers.

I don't recall this being introduced into the thread yet, and
wouldn't expect the average person to have several different
wattages of 12V bulbs lying about, at least not more than
their own automobiles/etc needed. Of course he can buy
them but then the costs keep going up.

Wreckers dont charge much.

Okay.. time to throw in some more details I think..

The 750W PSU I will likely be testing is this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-75zf.htm

If the company decides to send me a 650W model instead, it will likely be
this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-65zf.htm

I just need a way to load either of those supply's close to their maximum
ouput rating.. 600W is probably sufficient though.. (80% of 750W)

Budget is the number one consideration.. I want to building something to
generate a suitable load, but I don't want to spend a fortune.. If I have to
spend like $50 to build something suitable then so be it.. as long as I can
re-use it..

I don't mind at all how I accomplish the end result.. resistors just seemed
'the norm' for this kinda thing.. if I can use headlamps from a wreckers or
resistance wire then so be it.. whatever is cheapest and least complex..

Bottom line: I will be recieving a brand spanking new power supply for
absolutely nothing, and I don't want to screw up my relationship with the
company by doing a lame review with no real stats.. (ie. idle voltage
readings and reading at 100% cpu aren't gonna cut it all.. I need much more
info and much more load)


Chris

On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 08:21:37 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:

kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote
kony wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Well headlamps are typically 110W or less,
IIRC, and that only on the 12V rail.

Nope, they're fine on the other rails too.

Yes, but I meant using _one_ headlamp, was why
I'd mentioned the upper wattage I'd seen per one.

Still cant see what you are getting at there.

I meant your specific reference to the 12V rail.

That you can plug the 110W lamp into 12V and expect close to
110W, but have to recalc for lower wattage on 3.3 or 5V
rails.



For one, the # of headlamps isn't necessarily lower than
other types of resistors, could go either way, lower or higher.

There arent too many 100W class resistors readily buyable.

How many types does he need? I linked a few, but 100W isn't
needed per se, but high wattage per $ is, if it is to be
within the budget. That's part of why I linked that surplus
'site resistor because it is not only inexpensive (if he has
a way to 'sink it) but also a smaller contraption to built
which unless this is only a one-time test, means less costly
wood/metal/whatever enclosure to hold all these parts. If
it's going to be built, it might as well remain a whole
modular device rather than just a string of bulbs spread out
across a workbench. That makes storage, transportation, and
setting it up again much easier too.



The one thing which seems more certain is it could
end up either costing more, or being very very large.

Dunno, most obviously with surplus bulbs from car wreckers.

Yes, that'd be a good way to cut costs if he is inclined to
go that route.



Suppose a typical 55W headlamp, it's roughly 4.5A at the
slightly over 12V electical system of an automobile. You'll
need at least 6 for the 12V rail alone. Next we need a way
to re-rate the resistance for what it would be (slightly higher)

Lower, actually.

Yes I noted my error in a followup post.



due to the element not getting as hot from the other (lower voltage)
PSU rails, but for simplicities' sake let's consider it a constant, 2.7Ohm

750W PSU is bound to have a fairly high 5V current (unless
we were told otherwise, that wattage rating has to account
for it, else we'd need even more amps on a different rail
instead which is still more bulbs). So let's suppose a
fairly modest 30A on 5V rail and 20A on 3.3V rail. Do you
see that we're now talking about a LOT of headlamps

Dont have to cost much tho if you get them from a car wrecker.

Maybe, he'll have to try it and see. I don't know that
they'll be gathering up old light bulbs for resale though,
it might take a lot of work to collect bulbs out of cars.



and that this entire setup may require a whole table or more?

Only if you use sealed beam headlights.

It's not going to be all that small no matter what
headlights you used. "maybe" but it all depends on the
source, and the cost, other parts, etc... the whole design.



Sure it doesn't need heatsinks anymore
but it requires it's own zip code instead.

Cant see that its going to be any bigger than those
TO220 resistors if you dont use sealed beam headlights.

If you say so. You must only be referring to the 10 ohm
resistors though, right? There were 100W in TO247 package
too. Further he may be able to create a load but it'll be
fiddly to hit any exact load with a random assortment of
bulbs... he might end up using resistors anyway to get that
last few % accuracy.




If anything bulbs give you more flexibility since you can plug in a
variety of different bulbs to get the load you want on a particular rail.

"Plug in" is easier written than rewired.

You must have noticed that headlights have sockets for the bulbs.

yep, all this is still a lot more work. Maybe easier, maybe
not.



Yes it can work, and work fine at that. It does have it's own set
of trade-offs though, and that many headlamps are not going to
be so cheap unless there is a lower-than-normal cost source for them.

Thats what a car wrecker is.

Maybe, he'll have to call a few up and see. Some people
might be fortunate to have an accomdating junkyard nearby
and others might not.



Even being conservative and thinking $5 each,

You dont pay anything like that at a car wrecker.

Probably not, but there's still a lot of time involved, and
not knowing what that wrecker has, we can't draw a
conclusion yet on what support parts he'd need.



Agreed, but he'll still need to know how much it changes
for determination of load, for # of bulbs to buy,

Nope, just get a box full from the wreckers.

You figure those guys are going around collecting bulbs for
resale? I kinda doubt it. They'll be in cars still and if
he wants to spend an evening collecting them, so be it... or
if he had to pay the cost of having someone else go around
collecting them (for insurance reasons of no other), the
cost goes up some. Probably still cheaper than new bulbs
but it ends up being a lot of time and BS to go through just
to save $10 for some resistors or whatever.



I don't recall this being introduced into the thread yet, and
wouldn't expect the average person to have several different
wattages of 12V bulbs lying about, at least not more than
their own automobiles/etc needed. Of course he can buy
them but then the costs keep going up.

Wreckers dont charge much.


I guess we have completely different ideas about the best
way to tackle a project.

www.xbitlabs.com has a detailed description of its PSU testing
methodology and also the hardware they built for the purpose. Instead
of fixed resistors they used MOSFETs mounted on big, fan-cooled
heatsinks and controlled each set of MOSFETs by a computer so its
resistance could be varied.

Where does it have all this info ? I can't find two words about their test
rig !

Chris

On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:38:48 -0400, "Skeleton Man"
wrote:

Okay.. time to throw in some more details I think..

The 750W PSU I will likely be testing is this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-75zf.htm

If the company decides to send me a 650W model instead, it will likely be
this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-65zf.htm

I just need a way to load either of those supply's close to their maximum
ouput rating.. 600W is probably sufficient though.. (80% of 750W)

Budget is the number one consideration.. I want to building something to
generate a suitable load, but I don't want to spend a fortune.. If I have to
spend like $50 to build something suitable then so be it.. as long as I can
re-use it..

I don't mind at all how I accomplish the end result.. resistors just seemed
'the norm' for this kinda thing.. if I can use headlamps from a wreckers or
resistance wire then so be it.. whatever is cheapest and least complex..

Bottom line: I will be recieving a brand spanking new power supply for
absolutely nothing, and I don't want to screw up my relationship with the
company by doing a lame review with no real stats.. (ie. idle voltage
readings and reading at 100% cpu aren't gonna cut it all.. I need much more
info and much more load)


Well you probably already have a hint about the direction
I'd go... I'd use TO220 or TO247 resistors arrays. I'd use
a circuit board and mount PSU connectors on it (though come
to think of it I don't have any 4-pin (12V) connectors like
motherboard use, or at least I don't know where they'd be,
but probably Digikey would have them or you might be able to
get samples from Molex/etc).

You wouldn't necessarily need a circuit board for anything,
but, I'd think you would at least want the whole *whatever*
mounted somehow whether it be on a circuit board, on a piece
of plywood or other wood planking or whatever.

I've built quite a few one-off projects and can tell you
that the incidental expenses add up quick, depending on what
parts you have around already. I tend to buy not only what
I need for a project but whatever else I might need someday
if/when the prices are good, as it can cut down costs in the
long run not to have to mail-order a 15 cent resistor or
whatever to finish something. If you already had the wire,
screws/bolts/nuts/etc, it helps towards your budget but if
not there are lots of incidentals that can end up costing
near what a bunch of resistors would. Incidentally here's
another example of some potentially useful resistors from a
surplus 'site,

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.co...?number=G14510

With those, unlike the TO220 parts I'd linked previously, if
you give them a little margin you don't have to try to
heatsink them. For example on the 12V rail with paralleled
series of those you'd have each series as 4 of them, so 3A
through that series is 36W / 4 resistors = 9W each.

Since you have 18A rails, that's 6 paralleled groups of 4 in
series per each 12V rail. The entire PSU has 60A 12V limit
though instead of 72A, so the total cost to load all 12V
rails is 80 resistors, $8. Personally I always buy some
spares of parts *just_in_case* something went wrong but
that's up to you.

For the 5V rail, it's only 30A and that takes up most of the
current available for the combined 3V +5V rating too (180W
total combined rating), so for a thorough test you'd have to
unload the 5V rail some so you can then have 24A on 3.3V
(almost 80W) and only 20A on the 5V to pull that addt'l
100W.

So with 1 ohm resistors on 5V rail, paralleled series of 2
in each series, 2.5A per series and 6.25W per resistor.
You'd need 12 paralleled series of 2, 24 resistors is $2.40
or $3 in groups of 10/$1.

Same math applies for 3.3V rail, 1 resistor (no series
needed since 3.3V/1= 3.3, * 3.3 = 11W, still enough margin
on one 20W resistor. So for 24A, 7 resistors in parallel.

So you'd need 111 resistors or $12 worth. The extra 9 might
come in handy to load the other lower current rails or even
buy another 10 or 20 more while you're at it (I'm too lazy
to do the math as to how many you'd need for the other low
current rails but with so many USB devices these days, I'd
at least be sure to test the full rated 5VSB current.

That's a lot of resistors of course, but it is only $12
total cost (check my math though, I might have easily made
an error) and while the number seems awefully high, it also
allows a finer granularity for testing not only this PSU but
any others you want to put a different load on (which would
be practically any PSU, since most are not 750W).

Light bulbs would work though, I just won't go that way
myself. I have oddles of leftover heatsinks though,
aluminum sheeting, a metal brake, etc, so I can easier
forsee what I'd do... if you feel more comfortable mounting
na bunch of light bulbs on a piece of plywood, then explore
that angle more. If you were going to be posting a picture
of your PSU loading setup, I'd tend to think going with
resistors or another electronics-parts method would look a
little more professional than a bunch of lights, but
inevitably no matter what you do, *somebody* will be finding
fault with an article while the majority will instead
welcome the information you provide whether it is, or isn't,
as thorough as it could be- some information always beats
_no_ information, so long as the wrong conclusions are drawn
prematurely. For example, running a PSU at 600W load for a
few hours is a better method of indicating a problem rather
than declaring the PSU is suited for long term use at that
wattage. Even a poor generic may have sufficient output
into a resistive load for a day but in an actual system
might fail in a few weeks time. I don't suppose you really
want to have a 750W project running for months though, so
back to that part about any info being better than none.

I tried to download that PSU spec sheet but it seems
unavailable or perhaps the link is mangled, they didn't seem
to spell "download" right on the link but the correct
spelling didn't work either. Anyway, with all the
independant 12V rails it would be good to make sure they're
up to spec. Likely they're all essentially duplicates of
each other internally so it may not matter as much that all
are simultaneously tested for 18A (indeed, they also mention
the 60A max for 12V so it couldn't apply), but putting at
least 50-60 amps of load on the rail would be a useful test,
as I doubt anyone would want to pay a premium for the PSU if
it doesn't actually perform better than a lower cost,
550-or-so watt alternative.

Skeleton Man wrote:

www.xbitlabs.com has a detailed description of its PSU testing
methodology and also the hardware they built for the purpose. Instead
of fixed resistors they used MOSFETs mounted on big, fan-cooled
heatsinks and controlled each set of MOSFETs by a computer so its
resistance could be varied.

Where does it have all this info ? I can't find two words about their test rig !

I searched their website for "power supply" and found this article from
Jan 16, 2005:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...thodology.html

Here's the page where the test hardware is shown:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/oth...dology_11.html

1) Article cited by larry moe 'n curly provides useful background
information such as how voltage may vary both with load (wattage) on
this voltage as load (wattage) changes on other voltages. That is a
static load test where voltage is measured and compared to Intel ATX
specs. Also pictured is a dynamic load tester. Power supplies must
not maintain voltage just for a static load. Supply must also respond
fast enough for dynamic loading. A meter excellent for static testing
will not be sufficient for dynamic testing.

However your description only asks for static testing under full
load.

2) Motor load inside a computer is all but nil. Motors have a large
startup current. Power supplies (circuit breakers, fuses, etc) are
specially designed for this startup current. But computer supplies are
not because that large startup current does not exist. Some mistakenly
think a disc drive is a large load. Those motors draw so little as to
make startup current trivial.

However, if loading a power supply 12 volts with maybe 200 watt
lights (16 amp load) may first demand more than 100 amps (for a short
period). This might put a power supply into current foldback limiting
- a protective lockout function. IOW a power supply would fail test
even though that supply is perfectly OK. A partial load created by
incandescent lights would be better if part or majority of that load is
resistors or transistors; to create a smaller startup current.

3) BTW, if paralleling transistors (as shown in the picture), then
use FETs (not bipolar) transistors for reasons only provided if
relevant.

4) Paul makes an important point about maximum current per Molex pin.
Too much current through one pin can create excessive heating and
connector damage. What he has posted is informative - especially the
numbers.

5) How to measure load of more than 10 amps with a meter only rated
at ten amps: put a 14 AWG solid copper wire in series between power
supply connectors (all pins brought to a common point) and the load.
This is a current shunt. If that wire is about 5 feet long (ballpark
numbers from memory), then the DC voltage between both ends of that
wire might be 0.2 volts with a 16 amp current draw. Use a long wire so
that wire temperature changes are minimal. Better accuracy might be
obtained with 8 feet of 12 AWG wire.

Calibrate the current 'shunt' by loading 8 amps. The wire 'shunt'
might measure 0.1 volts. Therefore 1) no need to break and make
connection for measuring current (no additional connectors required),
and 2) your meter is not at risk for too much current.

6) Voltage using a volt meter is not only a great tool for testing a
power supply under full load (static load). Same meter is effective at
identifying a defective power supply when power supply remains inside a
computer - fastest method to confirm power supply integrity and without
disconnecting anything. Excessive AC ripple would also cause bad DC
voltage on meter - but only when power supply is loaded either by
computer or test fixture. IOW detect computer failures before those
failures start intermittently crashing the computer later.

Skeleton Man wrote:
Okay.. time to throw in some more details I think..

The 750W PSU I will likely be testing is this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-75zf.htm

If the company decides to send me a 650W model instead, it will likely be
this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-65zf.htm

I just need a way to load either of those supply's close to their maximum
ouput rating.. 600W is probably sufficient though.. (80% of 750W)

Budget is the number one consideration.. I want to building something to
generate a suitable load, but I don't want to spend a fortune.. If I have to
spend like $50 to build something suitable then so be it.. as long as I can
re-use it..

I don't mind at all how I accomplish the end result.. resistors just seemed
'the norm' for this kinda thing.. if I can use headlamps from a wreckers or
resistance wire then so be it.. whatever is cheapest and least complex..

Bottom line: I will be recieving a brand spanking new power supply for
absolutely nothing, and I don't want to screw up my relationship with the
company by doing a lame review with no real stats.. (ie. idle voltage
readings and reading at 100% cpu aren't gonna cut it all.. I need much more
info and much more load)

Paul wrote:
In article , "Skeleton Man"
wrote:

The 750W PSU I will likely be testing is this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-75zf.htm

If the company decides to send me a 650W model instead, it will likely be
this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-65zf.htm

There are (3) 3.3V and (4) 5V wires on a 20 pin ATX power connector.
There are (4) 3.3V and (5) 5V wires on a 24 pin ATX power connector.
You are allowed 6 amps per pin. I would aim for 5 amps per pin
for a small safety factor.

Molex pins for HDs are rated for 6A apiece, those for motherboards 8A
or 9A apiece.
That's not to say I'd want to operate them at those limits.

Contact the lamers at Silverstone and get the manual.

Silverstones are actually very good and made by Etasis.

Skeleton Man wrote:
Okay.. time to throw in some more details I think..

The 750W PSU I will likely be testing is this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-75zf.htm

If the company decides to send me a 650W model instead, it will likely be
this one:
http://www.silverstone-usa.com/products-65zf.htm

I just need a way to load either of those supply's close to their maximum
ouput rating.. 600W is probably sufficient though.. (80% of 750W)

Budget is the number one consideration.. I want to building something to
generate a suitable load, but I don't want to spend a fortune.. If I have to
spend like $50 to build something suitable then so be it.. as long as I can
re-use it..

I don't mind at all how I accomplish the end result.. resistors just seemed
'the norm' for this kinda thing.. if I can use headlamps from a wreckers or
resistance wire then so be it.. whatever is cheapest and least complex..

Bottom line: I will be recieving a brand spanking new power supply for
absolutely nothing, and I don't want to screw up my relationship with the
company by doing a lame review with no real stats.. (ie. idle voltage
readings and reading at 100% cpu aren't gonna cut it all.. I need much more
info and much more load)


Chris

Forget using filament lamps. They eat in the region of 10x rated
current on start up, and would make your test results junk. And maybe
open you up to legal charges, depending on where you live.

A bit of sheet wood & metal with 3 screws and 2 bolts would do it, plus
resistance wire.

In fact you could likely do it with nothing more than 2 metal
rods/plates and a bucket of water. Water conducts some at 12v after
all. Or one rod and a metal bucket. Fully variable.


NT