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Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 24th 17, 01:43 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 439
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

In alt.comp.hardware, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 11:23:18 -0800, pyotr
filipivich wrote:

mike on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 04:20:19 -0800 typed in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
On 1/23/2017 1:37 AM, micky wrote:
Can you damage a case fan by vacuuming the air vents from the outside?

(I have a Dell Optiplex 775 with the original fan. )

It seems more than safe to me, but I happened to read the manual for a
Noctua fan and it says not to use a vacuum cleaner or it may apply
"excessive force to the fan". I find that hard to believe. I've pushed
on the vanes of other 3, 4, and 5" fans and they don't bend at all with
the kind of force vacuum cleaners exert. In fact I think they would be
hard to break. Are Noctua fans more fragile than others?


I think the case fan is rarely the problem.
I buy all my computers at garage sales. I've never, ever
had a case fan that had a dirt problem.
I've had MANY CPU fans 100% blocked with cat hair.

If you think you've got dust, take it apart and blow it
out with compressed air,


Use the canned stuff. Don't take it into the shop and blow it out
with air from the 120 psi line - with or without the inline oiler.


What about the grease gun? Where do I use that?

I don't have a 120 psi line, but I have the image of a can of air having
no more force than a spray can of paint or bug spray. Is that really
enough to move the dust, some of which I think is sort of stuck to
whatever it's stuck to?

  #12  
Old January 24th 17, 01:48 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
micky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 439
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

In alt.comp.hardware, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 17:32:30 -0800, T
wrote:

On 01/23/2017 01:37 AM, micky wrote:
Can you damage a case fan by vacuuming the air vents from the outside?

(I have a Dell Optiplex 775 with the original fan. )

It seems more than safe to me, but I happened to read the manual for a
Noctua fan and it says not to use a vacuum cleaner or it may apply
"excessive force to the fan". I find that hard to believe. I've pushed
on the vanes of other 3, 4, and 5" fans and they don't bend at all with
the kind of force vacuum cleaners exert. In fact I think they would be
hard to break. Are Noctua fans more fragile than others?



Hi Micky,

A "fan" is also know as a "reservable generator". If you
cause it to spin, you will create a current. This can
damage any electronics on the fan's controller and/or
damage anything the fan is plugged into.

When I blow out fans, I will grab a blade to keep it
from spinning

-T

I learned the above the hard way and yes I did know better.


Thanks and thanks all.

You all agree on this part of the advice, and I've take the other things
to heart also.
  #13  
Old January 24th 17, 04:01 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

micky on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 20:43:41 -0500
typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
In alt.comp.hardware, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 11:23:18 -0800, pyotr
filipivich wrote:

mike on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 04:20:19 -0800 typed in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
On 1/23/2017 1:37 AM, micky wrote:
Can you damage a case fan by vacuuming the air vents from the outside?

(I have a Dell Optiplex 775 with the original fan. )

It seems more than safe to me, but I happened to read the manual for a
Noctua fan and it says not to use a vacuum cleaner or it may apply
"excessive force to the fan". I find that hard to believe. I've pushed
on the vanes of other 3, 4, and 5" fans and they don't bend at all with
the kind of force vacuum cleaners exert. In fact I think they would be
hard to break. Are Noctua fans more fragile than others?


I think the case fan is rarely the problem.
I buy all my computers at garage sales. I've never, ever
had a case fan that had a dirt problem.
I've had MANY CPU fans 100% blocked with cat hair.

If you think you've got dust, take it apart and blow it
out with compressed air,


Use the canned stuff. Don't take it into the shop and blow it out
with air from the 120 psi line - with or without the inline oiler.


What about the grease gun? Where do I use that?

I don't have a 120 psi line, but I have the image of a can of air having
no more force than a spray can of paint or bug spray.


Pretty much.

Is that really
enough to move the dust, some of which I think is sort of stuck to
whatever it's stuck to?


The spray cans will have a little tube, which lets you aim that
"low" pressure airblast into a specific spot.

There is, of course, a major difference between what is considered
"normal levels of dust" in various parts of the world. Like the
useful life of air filters in cars, depends on conditions. Occasional
trips around town in the rainy season - no problem. Being the second
or third vehicle on dirt roads in summer - you'll be knocking the dirt
out every time you stop for gas.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #14  
Old January 24th 17, 11:01 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

micky on 2017/01/23 wrote:

In alt.comp.hardware, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 11:23:18 -0800, pyotr
filipivich wrote:

mike on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 04:20:19 -0800 typed in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
On 1/23/2017 1:37 AM, micky wrote:
Can you damage a case fan by vacuuming the air vents from the outside?

(I have a Dell Optiplex 775 with the original fan. )

It seems more than safe to me, but I happened to read the manual for a
Noctua fan and it says not to use a vacuum cleaner or it may apply
"excessive force to the fan". I find that hard to believe. I've pushed
on the vanes of other 3, 4, and 5" fans and they don't bend at all with
the kind of force vacuum cleaners exert. In fact I think they would be
hard to break. Are Noctua fans more fragile than others?


I think the case fan is rarely the problem.
I buy all my computers at garage sales. I've never, ever
had a case fan that had a dirt problem.
I've had MANY CPU fans 100% blocked with cat hair.

If you think you've got dust, take it apart and blow it
out with compressed air,


Use the canned stuff. Don't take it into the shop and blow it out
with air from the 120 psi line - with or without the inline oiler.


What about the grease gun? Where do I use that?

I don't have a 120 psi line, but I have the image of a can of air having
no more force than a spray can of paint or bug spray. Is that really
enough to move the dust, some of which I think is sort of stuck to
whatever it's stuck to?


Well, what ELSE is inside a can of spray paint? Oh yeah, the emulsified
particulate solution AND the propellant. So obviously the can cannot
contain only propellant. What happens as you use up the propellant in a
spray paint can? Yep, the pressure goes down. You know that a can of
spray paint will get colder as the propellant gets converted from high
to low[er] pressure. A can of compressed air will frost over and get
too cold to hold after only using part of the can. The canned air will
also wane in pressure as the propellant gets used up but you are
starting with a hell of a lot more propellant.

Also, the nozzle of a spray paint can is designed to mist (aerate) the
emulsified particulate, not spew it out as fast as it can. The flow
rate is throttled and turbulence is deliberate increased to produce a
more even spray pattern.

By the way, you are probably more accustomed to those fixed or
non-refillable air cans, like you get at a typical computer or hardware
retail store. I've use compress air cans that have a micro-adjustable
nozzle that you screw onto the can (first you slide a collar on the
spray head onto a rim on the can and then screw down the delivery tube
onto the can. That is needed due to the much pressure of those cans.
In fact, you can puncture your skin if you open the valve all the way up
on a new can using the smallest aperture nozzle size. Typically those
air sprayers are not supposed to be full open. They are adjustable for
flow rate and have a large weighted trigger to direct a more exact and
consistent pressure at the nozzle tip. Those are expensive. You don't
find them in computer or hardware stores. The cans can be repressurized
with a pump. I got some from a friend that worked at Medtronics in the
QA and failure analysis labs.

I just use the simple non-refillable cans at the computer and hardware
stores. You've never used one of those? If you did, you wouldn't think
they were anywhere as near the throttled low flow rate of spray paint
cans of which only a portion of their volume is the propellant.
  #15  
Old January 25th 17, 12:47 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

In message , T writes:
[]
A "fan" is also know as a "reservable generator". If you
cause it to spin, you will create a current. This can


Not always - only if it has permanent magnets.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Religion often uses faith as a blindfold, saying anyone who doesn't believe
the same as us must be wiped out. It's not God saying that. It's people, which
is so dangerous. - Jenny Agutter, RT 2015/1/17-23
  #16  
Old January 25th 17, 07:26 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_28_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,467
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , T writes:
[]
A "fan" is also know as a "reservable generator". If you
cause it to spin, you will create a current. This can


Not always - only if it has permanent magnets.
[]


Yes, they have permanent magnets.

http://pcbheaven.com/wikipages/How_B...s_Motors_Work/

And when you see a closeup of the controller board,
the schematic doesn't match the "Internet schematics"
you might see. This one seems to have three transistors
and a Hall probe, rather than just two transistors.

http://tipperlinne.com/fan-tach.htm

*******

If you expect to extract energy from a BLDC fan...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Old-...in-10-Minutes/

"To get the induced current from the motor used
as a generator, you must remove this IC"

Yes, the controller board gets in the way of
obtaining an AC signal from the coils. Or at least,
it would prevent efficient energy extraction.

*******

When you switch off a PC, the fan goes from "motor" to
"generator", instantly. That means, if you have a 1500RPM
fan, then it can tolerate "generator" mode at 1500 RPM
for a short interval (as it comes to a stop on its own
pretty quickly).

On an electric lawnmower, when you switch off, the mower
goes from "motor" to "Generator" too. To make the mower
blade stop faster, the coils are shorted when you
switch off, so the "generator" action dumps into a
dead short. If you take the cover off the mower and
watch the brushes, the sparks are larger on shutdown,
than in normal operation. (I changed the brushes on my
electric lawnmower last summer, and got to observe
them in action.)

Paul

  #17  
Old January 26th 17, 07:29 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 75
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

On 1/24/2017 3:01 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
micky on 2017/01/23 wrote:

In alt.comp.hardware, on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 11:23:18 -0800, pyotr
filipivich wrote:

mike on Mon, 23 Jan 2017 04:20:19 -0800 typed in
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:
On 1/23/2017 1:37 AM, micky wrote:
Can you damage a case fan by vacuuming the air vents from the outside?

(I have a Dell Optiplex 775 with the original fan. )

It seems more than safe to me, but I happened to read the manual for a
Noctua fan and it says not to use a vacuum cleaner or it may apply
"excessive force to the fan". I find that hard to believe. I've pushed
on the vanes of other 3, 4, and 5" fans and they don't bend at all with
the kind of force vacuum cleaners exert. In fact I think they would be
hard to break. Are Noctua fans more fragile than others?


I think the case fan is rarely the problem.
I buy all my computers at garage sales. I've never, ever
had a case fan that had a dirt problem.
I've had MANY CPU fans 100% blocked with cat hair.

If you think you've got dust, take it apart and blow it
out with compressed air,

Use the canned stuff. Don't take it into the shop and blow it out
with air from the 120 psi line - with or without the inline oiler.


What about the grease gun? Where do I use that?

I don't have a 120 psi line, but I have the image of a can of air having
no more force than a spray can of paint or bug spray. Is that really
enough to move the dust, some of which I think is sort of stuck to
whatever it's stuck to?


Well, what ELSE is inside a can of spray paint? Oh yeah, the emulsified
particulate solution AND the propellant. So obviously the can cannot
contain only propellant. What happens as you use up the propellant in a
spray paint can? Yep, the pressure goes down. You know that a can of
spray paint will get colder as the propellant gets converted from high
to low[er] pressure. A can of compressed air will frost over and get
too cold to hold after only using part of the can. The canned air will
also wane in pressure as the propellant gets used up but you are
starting with a hell of a lot more propellant.

Also, the nozzle of a spray paint can is designed to mist (aerate) the
emulsified particulate, not spew it out as fast as it can. The flow
rate is throttled and turbulence is deliberate increased to produce a
more even spray pattern.

By the way, you are probably more accustomed to those fixed or
non-refillable air cans, like you get at a typical computer or hardware
retail store.


I think you're confusing compressed air with a phase-change propellant.
You can't get enough compressed air into a "duster" can to do anything
useful. You can use air pressure to dispense a small percentage
volume of
payload, like paint, but the pressure varies considerably as you use it up.
The downside is that phase change propellants useful at human
temperatures and spray can pressures have side effects, like
flammability or ozone depletion
or toxicity.

I've use compress air cans that have a micro-adjustable
nozzle that you screw onto the can (first you slide a collar on the
spray head onto a rim on the can and then screw down the delivery tube
onto the can. That is needed due to the much pressure of those cans.
In fact, you can puncture your skin if you open the valve all the way up
on a new can using the smallest aperture nozzle size. Typically those
air sprayers are not supposed to be full open. They are adjustable for
flow rate and have a large weighted trigger to direct a more exact and
consistent pressure at the nozzle tip. Those are expensive. You don't
find them in computer or hardware stores. The cans can be repressurized
with a pump. I got some from a friend that worked at Medtronics in the
QA and failure analysis labs.

I just use the simple non-refillable cans at the computer and hardware
stores. You've never used one of those? If you did, you wouldn't think
they were anywhere as near the throttled low flow rate of spray paint
cans of which only a portion of their volume is the propellant.


  #18  
Old January 26th 17, 08:58 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,453
Default Damage a case fan by vacuuming air vents from the outside?

mike on 2017/01/26 wrote:

I think you're confusing compressed air with a phase-change
propellant. You can't get enough compressed air into a "duster" can
to do anything useful. You can use air pressure to dispense a small
percentage volume of payload, like paint, but the pressure varies
considerably as you use it up. The downside is that phase change
propellants useful at human temperatures and spray can pressures have
side effects, like flammability or ozone depletion or toxicity.


Correct, there is no air (nitrogen+oygen) in a typical duster can. They
contain difluoroethene, trifluoroethene, or tetrafluoroethene. They are
considered as "greenhouse gases" (if you believe that humans are
responsible instead of, increased gamma radiation from the sun that
generates more cloud cover - but the sun cannot be taxed as can humans).
Tetrafluoroethene (HFC-134a) has been replaced with less expensive HFCs.
Those that use butane or other hydrocarbons were abandoned years ago
(decades maybe) because of their flammability.

I just checked those that I recently bought at the hardware store. They
note on their label "Bitterant added". That means they use an HFC as
the propellant. Luckily the one that I got has an MSDS (manufacturer
safety data sheet) available online. No, they don't give the URL on the
can but I found it via searching "msds ultra duster". It's at:

http://ultraduster.com/msds.html

As can be read there, it uses difluoroethene. I found another that I've
used at:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...B4jQxA&cad=rja

It also uses difluoroethene. You can also buy dusters that attach to a
CO2 (carbon dioxide) cartridge. You can buy tanks of air, oxygen,
nitrogen, or whatever you want and hose off from the tank but you'll
need a regulator at the end to lower the pressure.

There ARE true air duster cans. They only contain air and as such have
much shorter "run" times. You get about 10 times the volume of the can
for the compressed air but as with any propellant the pressure goes down
as the volume decreases (non-linearly, of course). The compressed *air*
cans that I got from a buddy at Medtronic were normally reused by
attaching them to a compressor (with filters for purity). I didn't have
the compressor and my buddy there moved away so there was no way to get
the cans refilled. They had a micro-adjustable trigger that let you
adjust the air flow to miniscule to full blast. Those did use AIR.
 




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