Help! Major Memory Installation Issue

On 21 Apr, 18:55, Paul wrote:
wrote:

The video card is an NVIDIA GEFORCE 9500GT according to the receipts.
It's interesting that you mention the video card. There is one small
thing I noticed when I was doing my tests. I was surprised to see a
rather large fan mounted to the bottom of the card. I may have seen
that before at some point but I'd completely forgotten that it had a
fan of its own, over and above the CPU fan and the case fans. Anyway,
just out of curiousity, I tried spinning the fan with my finger and
found that it didn't turn. I had assumed it would freewheel when not
being driven by electricity but it didn't budge. I didn't apply any
real pressure for fear of breaking it but I was surprised that it
didn't turn. Now that I think of it, I don't think that fan EVER
turned during the couple of hours I spent doing these tests. It didn't
dawn on me until now that it probably should have been turning all or
most of the time. (I told you I'm not a hardware guy! More proof of
why I'm not a hardware guy and shouldn't ever pretend to be ;-)

There is no wire running to the video card from elsewhere in the
computer. There is one pair of wires running from underneath the fan
to a spot a short distance from the fan on the card itself and that's
the only wire connected to the card. I tried powering up again (with
all four memory slots in use) and that video card fan is definitely
not turning. Before powering it up, I tried turning that fan with my
finger and pushed somewhat harder than I did yesterday; it's
definitely not turning. I wonder if it has a brake of some kind that
only releases when it has power?

Does the *CPU fan turning off have significance in diagnosing the
problem?

Is there any more I can do for myself before bringing it in for that
diagnostic at the computer store? Are there any components we can be
sure have not failed, like the motherboard or CPU, or is the
diagnostic the best way of determining all that?

I'm trying to formulate alternatives. If I'm looking at building a
whole new computer (or pretty close), I wonder if I might be better to
remove the drives, mount them in an enclosure of some kind and access
them from my laptop and do without a desktop. That's got a major
problem associated with it - the desktop is XP SP3 and the laptop is
Windows 8 - but maybe I'd be able to see and access most of the data
anyway.

But I'm probably getting ahead of myself. Let's figure out how bad
this is first before declaring the desktop dead and moving on....

I gave you my diagnosis, and I'll repeat it again.

You did. I suppose I'm saying I didn't really understand it. ;-)

1) B channel on CPU memory controller has failed. To regain
* * usage of all four slots for memory DIMMs, you'll need to test
* * with a replacement processor. If a test processor determines a working
* * A1/A2 channel and B1/B2 channel, then we know the original CPU
* * had a dead B channel. If for some reason the replacement processor
* * did not repair the problem, then it's motherboard. But the motherboard
* * contributes next to nothing, to memory operation on the M3A. Only
* * if a pin was bent, or the VDIMM regulator blew up, would the
* * replacement processor fail to fix it. You've already told me
* * a visual check of the DIMM slots reveals nothing.

I don't remember doing any formal inspection. I certainly didn't look
at them carefully. I _did_ find that the memory cards went into some
slots more easily than others. Some were smooth as silk but others
needed some extra firmness and felt like there might be a bit of grit
in the track somewhere.

I just did a thorough inspection of all four DIMM slots and the memory
cards in them and can't see anything amiss in any of them. There was
one speck of dust in the B2 slot but a little puff of air blew that
away. The A2 slot was the one that took a little extra work to get the
card settled in.

And your A1/A2
* * work, which proves VDIMM is working. Ipsofacto - replace CPU !
* * If you want to run with only two DIMM slots, use only A1/A2, then
* * hold off on buying the replacement CPU for now. We have to work
* * on our video. CPU is not a priority at the moment. But it has
* * to be fixed eventually, some day. We want working video, to prove
* * we're making progress.

So you think we might have a working computer with only the original
memory cards if we can get some video working to prove it. That sounds
encouraging!

2) The BIOS beep pattern is beeping about a video problem. You
* * have discovered a video card fan which no longer rotates. This
* * is a bad sign. Uh oh! In some cases, on fan failure, the heat from
* * the GPU, melts the plastic body of the fan (which is confirmation of
* * evil spirits :-) )

And you think this fan failed because of my mishap with changing the
memory with the power still on? Why would that affect the video fan?

We term this a "double fault".

Does that mean we had two unrelated failures at the same time?

Coincidences do happen - I've seen quite a few - although I'm inclined
to think that two simultaneous failures with different causes seems
unlikely. But my knowledge of electronics is negligible so maybe this
is less implausible than it sounds to my ignorant ear.

In any case, I'm not all that concerned about why it happened. Maybe
the fan was already dead and has worked for weeks; I only noticed that
it wasn't turning as a result of trying to fix the other issue.

And only testing, either temporary
testing (using computer shop test CPU and test video card), or you
purchase "worthy" replacement parts and test with them. If you do it
that way, you risk spending more for the overall repair, than going
through the computer shop. I repair my own systems... because
I'm an idiot, and I wouldn't do it any other way. My worst case
experience, I bought one new item, of everything. That's an expensive
way to do repair, but it's part of the gamble of repairing your own
stuff by yourself.

Most of the time, I narrow it down to just the defective item, but
I don't get lucky every time. Even a computer shop will guess incorrectly,
and sometimes it leads to the computer shop suffering burnt out test
components. That's the risk they take, and why the repair fee is higher
than it should be - it helps pay for the stuff they wreck.

Agreed. They're not superhuman. They're bound to make mistakes too. I
was pleasantly surprised that they didn't laugh at me when I told them
what I'd done. Perhaps it was just them not wanting to **** off a
customer but I'd like to think it was because they've made a mistake
too on occasion.

*******

The bearing on the video fan has probably failed. The fan draws power
from the two pin header on the video card PCB. The video fan does not
need to be plugged into the motherboard, because there is a perfectly
good fan header right on the video card. It will be a two wire fan,
with no RPM measurement capabilities. Too bad the video card company
didn't spend a few cents on a fan failure indicator!

It would only do you some good if the indicator appeared where you'd
see it, like an idiot light on your car's dash ;-)

There is no point "just replacing the fan", because the card is
giving us evidence it is dead. We won't know it's really dead,
until a test card has been substituted in its place.

Now you need to borrow a video card for testing. With same slot
type as 9500 GT.

I've got previous computers but I don't imagine any of them would be
PCI Express. I've certainly never seen anything that looked like that
clamp arrangement on any of my previous PCs.

The guy at the computer store said he probably had a spare CPU that
would fit that mobo. I don't think he said anything about video cards
but there's at least a chance.

Maybe if I go there tomorrow and just see if he can swap out the video
card for me, he could do that while I wait - and free - rather than
putting it in his service queue....

The idea would be, you test to see if you can enter the BIOS, or get
the BIOS screen up and running. If you boot into Windows with the new
card in place, you'll end up running at a low resolution (like 800x600),
depending on the driver situation. Some driver work may be needed,
to get full resolution back. Uninstall original driver from Add/Remove,
install new driver from video card boxed CD.

We don't know the video card is dead. If the card is naturally a low
power card, perhaps a fan failure won't kill it. On high power cards,
there have been cases where a fan failure, leads to the fan being
melted, as the chip underneath overheats :-)

If we look at your motherboard chipset info...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_700_chipset_series#770

* * "770

* * *One physical PCIe 2.0 x16 slot"

So you should be able to use any PCI Express video card you
can find in that slot. Subject to your power supply being
able to provide enough power. If you buy a $500 card, the
supply may not be adequate. If you buy (or borrow) a cheap
$50 card, the power is likely to be less than 50W.

For example, a Geforce 210 card is available for $30. Not
a gamer card by any stretch of the imagination. And your
local shop will likely charge a bit more than $30
for their Geforce 210. This is good enough to be a
"frame buffer", but may not be strong enough to run "The SiMMs"
latest version.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814134157

I'm not much of a gamer. My main game is Hoyle Puzzle Games 2003,
which has Mahjong and other similar board and card games. ;-) I _do_
have Flight Simulator 2003 but haven't even tried it in years; I can
never get past a point in the third lesson before washing out.

But I do think I might upgrade to Windows 7 or 8 on the desktop so I'd
like a video card that is compatible with that.

For now, I'll see if I can get the guy at ComputersCanada to put in
another video card and see if it fires up with memory in the A1/A2
slots.

By the way, I said I assumed I was out of luck if I'd fried the new
memory and he said not necessarily since I'd only just purchased it.
He said if I went back to the manufacturer and said the right words,
they'd probably give me my money back. So maybe I'll give that a
whirl. If the B1/B2 slots aren't getting recognized anyway, I don't
need the extra memory unless I go for a new CPU.

Thanks very much for your help so far, Paul!! You've been great with
answering my dumbass questions and helping me go in a sensible
direction. I really appreciate that.

wrote:
On 21 Apr, 18:55, Paul wrote:


We term this a "double fault".

Does that mean we had two unrelated failures at the same time?

Yes.

Remember, we're relying on a sick computer, to tell us what's wrong.
Only you can listen to the beep pattern right now, and decide whether
that's a video beep error or not. Maybe the beep pattern is just
a fake, and the computer is crazy... :-)

That fan did not stop on its own. On my NVidia 7900GT, the fan
runs at 100% speed, until a Windows driver loads and slows it down.
(On Linux, it just wails at 100% the whole time. Only the
Nvidia tainted Linux driver will slow it down, under Linux.
As a hardware guy, I "fixed" this (evil grin). )

You don't have an OS running right now, which means the fan
should be at full power (such as it is). I'm not aware
of any NVidia video card implementations, with fully automated
fan control - such that a cool GPU would not require cooling
and the fan could actually stop rotating. Some motherboard/CPU
combinations work that way. There have been a few AMD processor
setups, where at startup, the CPU fan won't rotate. It has to
heat up a bit. Then it starts to spin.


Coincidences do happen - I've seen quite a few - although I'm inclined
to think that two simultaneous failures with different causes seems
unlikely. But my knowledge of electronics is negligible so maybe this
is less implausible than it sounds to my ignorant ear.

At the moment, I have no theory, to correlate your RAM installation,
finishing off the video card. I'm just dealing with the observations,
as thin as they are. I think you have a video beep error, you're
telling me the fan stopped spinning. That's not encouraging as
a set of symptoms. I'm trying to get us past the point, of being
stopped by a video beep error. If a substitute video card doesn't
do that, then we're back to changing out the CPU, and working on it
from that angle. (The theory being in that case, that the memory
operation is flaky enough, it's causing the video test to fail.)

Maybe you could blame a power supply failure, for causing the
symptoms, but then, we are able to get beep codes, and if
severe damage was done, we'd be getting no beeps at all.
The presence of any beeps, is a very encouraging sign,
as a lot of hardware on the core of the system has to
work, to get beeps out of it. It proves a lot of onboard
regulators have to be working.

snip

Now you need to borrow a video card for testing. With same slot
type as 9500 GT.

I've got previous computers but I don't imagine any of them would be
PCI Express. I've certainly never seen anything that looked like that
clamp arrangement on any of my previous PCs.

The guy at the computer store said he probably had a spare CPU that
would fit that mobo. I don't think he said anything about video cards
but there's at least a chance.

Maybe if I go there tomorrow and just see if he can swap out the video
card for me, he could do that while I wait - and free - rather than
putting it in his service queue....

Remember to install one of your working A1/A2 DIMM configs, before
the trip.

If you want to confirm the video card error, pull the video card
(with the power off!) and switch on the system, with a working
A1/A2 DIMM configuration. The beep pattern should match the
beep pattern we think indicates a 9500GT problem. This is a test,
to (partially) confirm the beep pattern is what the bioscentral table
says it is.


The idea would be, you test to see if you can enter the BIOS, or get
the BIOS screen up and running. If you boot into Windows with the new
card in place, you'll end up running at a low resolution (like 800x600),
depending on the driver situation. Some driver work may be needed,
to get full resolution back. Uninstall original driver from Add/Remove,
install new driver from video card boxed CD.


I'm not much of a gamer. My main game is Hoyle Puzzle Games 2003,
which has Mahjong and other similar board and card games. ;-) I _do_
have Flight Simulator 2003 but haven't even tried it in years; I can
never get past a point in the third lesson before washing out.

But I do think I might upgrade to Windows 7 or 8 on the desktop so I'd
like a video card that is compatible with that.

For now, I'll see if I can get the guy at ComputersCanada to put in
another video card and see if it fires up with memory in the A1/A2
slots.

By the way, I said I assumed I was out of luck if I'd fried the new
memory and he said not necessarily since I'd only just purchased it.
He said if I went back to the manufacturer and said the right words,
they'd probably give me my money back. So maybe I'll give that a
whirl. If the B1/B2 slots aren't getting recognized anyway, I don't
need the extra memory unless I go for a new CPU.

Thanks very much for your help so far, Paul!! You've been great with
answering my dumbass questions and helping me go in a sensible
direction. I really appreciate that.


In terms of video card test options:

1) Borrow a PCI Express x16 card. This test case, would be a check
that the 9500 GT is at fault. Now, say the replacement card doesn't
work either. Then, we do (2).
2) Borrow a *PCI* video card. I have an FX5200 that fits in a PCI slot.
I use it, when flashing the BIOS on a "better" video card. The
card is a stinker in terms of performance, and so it does not
stay inside any computer. But it does function as a "screen" to use,
while debugging. If the PCI video card works, but the PCI Express
one doesn't, then the PCI Express x16 slot is blown, and that
means the AMD 770 chipset is damaged (new motherboard). This is
highly unlikely to be the case. However, if you want a morale
booster, there's nothing like trying the PCI card and getting
to see a BIOS screen. So if you had a PCI card in your stock,
you could try that. In a few years, they won't be putting PCI slots
in systems any more. PCI is removed from a few new systems, already.

This is the cheapest PCI test card. A 6200. $40. Similar to my FX 5200.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130466

This is the "most useful" PCI test card, in that driver
support might last for a while. GeForce 210 PCI. $53

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814187206

A GT 630 for $60. This would allow some gaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130792

A GT 640 for $85. This would allow some gaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814162113

Video cards can come with GDDR3 or GDDR5 memory, and generally
the ones with GDDR5 are better (give better memory bandwidth).
For similar video cards (say, cards from $80 to $130) with the
same model number, there could be up to a factor of four
difference, in the performance of the memory subsystem.
So while you might think a model number is a "constant",
you actually have to pick through them, to find a
"good value" card. The above examples were picked solely
on price, and don't represent a "full shopping analysis".
However, if you're motivated by price, then just using
price as a selector is fine.

This list, gives simple-minded single point analysis of cards.
We don't know how a Passmark, correlates with game play. No idea.

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php

GeForce FX 5200 7 --- My old test card. Wow. The test is
obviously using a feature the 5200 does
not have. Software emulation is used.
GeForce 6200 46 --- A screamer... Not.
GeForce 210 184 --- Note: A gaming stinker, OK as a tester only.
GeForce 7900 GT/GTO 240 --- My best video card. Yeah!
GeForce 9500 GT 291 --- Your current card. Rest in peace.
GeForce GT 630 718 $60
GeForce GT 640 1306 $85

None of the example cards above, have a PCI Express 2x3 power
connector. Similar I think, to your 9500 GT. I'm trying
to select cards, which have no extra requirements. The
GeForce 210 is OK for testing, but unimpressive otherwise.
Your existing card, beats mine by a bit. And the other two,
offer a slight improvement. The 630/640 might even be cooler at
idle.

HTH,
Paul

On 21 Apr, 22:26, Paul wrote:
wrote:
On 21 Apr, 18:55, Paul wrote:

We term this a "double fault".

Does that mean we had two unrelated failures at the same time?

Yes.

Remember, we're relying on a sick computer, to tell us what's wrong.
Only you can listen to the beep pattern right now, and decide whether
that's a video beep error or not. Maybe the beep pattern is just
a fake, and the computer is crazy... :-)

That fan did not stop on its own. On my NVidia 7900GT, the fan
runs at 100% speed, until a Windows driver loads and slows it down.
(On Linux, it just wails at 100% the whole time. Only the
Nvidia tainted Linux driver will slow it down, under Linux.
As a hardware guy, I "fixed" this (evil grin). )

You don't have an OS running right now, which means the fan
should be at full power (such as it is). I'm not aware
of any NVidia video card implementations, with fully automated
fan control - such that a cool GPU would not require cooling
and the fan could actually stop rotating. Some motherboard/CPU
combinations work that way. There have been a few AMD processor
setups, where at startup, the CPU fan won't rotate. It has to
heat up a bit. Then it starts to spin.



Coincidences do happen - I've seen quite a few - although I'm inclined
to think that two simultaneous failures with different causes seems
unlikely. But my knowledge of electronics is negligible so maybe this
is less implausible than it sounds to my ignorant ear.

At the moment, I have no theory, to correlate your RAM installation,
finishing off the video card. I'm just dealing with the observations,
as thin as they are. I think you have a video beep error, you're
telling me the fan stopped spinning. That's not encouraging as
a set of symptoms. I'm trying to get us past the point, of being
stopped by a video beep error. If a substitute video card doesn't
do that, then we're back to changing out the CPU, and working on it
from that angle. (The theory being in that case, that the memory
operation is flaky enough, it's causing the video test to fail.)

Maybe you could blame a power supply failure, for causing the
symptoms, but then, we are able to get beep codes, and if
severe damage was done, we'd be getting no beeps at all.
The presence of any beeps, is a very encouraging sign,
as a lot of hardware on the core of the system has to
work, to get beeps out of it. It proves a lot of onboard
regulators have to be working.

snip

Now you need to borrow a video card for testing. With same slot
type as 9500 GT.

I've got previous computers but I don't imagine any of them would be
PCI Express. I've certainly never seen anything that looked like that
clamp arrangement on any of my previous PCs.

The guy at the computer store said he probably had a spare CPU that
would fit that mobo. I don't think he said anything about video cards
but there's at least a chance.

Maybe if I go there tomorrow and just see if he can swap out the video
card for me, he could do that while I wait - and free - rather than
putting it in his service queue....

Remember to install one of your working A1/A2 DIMM configs, before
the trip.

If you want to confirm the video card error, pull the video card
(with the power off!) and switch on the system, with a working
A1/A2 DIMM configuration. The beep pattern should match the
beep pattern we think indicates a 9500GT problem. This is a test,
to (partially) confirm the beep pattern is what the bioscentral table
says it is.

Now I'm really confused.

I made sure the green mobo LED was off and removed the video card. I
also removed the new memory cards from the B1 and B2 DIMM slots. Then
I tried powering on the computer. Nothing happened. The green LED
won't come on any more!

I checked to make sure the AC cord was secure and tried it in a
different outlet. I even tried another AC cord - I have a few kicking
around - but still nothing. I also put the video card back in
(securing the screw on the offchance it was grounding the card and the
PC wouldn't power on otherwise). The computer won't power up now, with
or without a video card, with the original or a different AC cord, in
the same or different outlet. Why would my problem get worse? Is this
now a triple fault??

I have a strong suspicion that the next step is the fully $40
diagnostic and that we may now have THREE active problems:
a) the dead fan on the video card
b) the dead B channel for the memory, possibly attributable to the CPU
c) a dead power supply

This is starting to sound very expensive.....










The idea would be, you test to see if you can enter the BIOS, or get
the BIOS screen up and running. If you boot into Windows with the new
card in place, you'll end up running at a low resolution (like 800x600),
depending on the driver situation. Some driver work may be needed,
to get full resolution back. Uninstall original driver from Add/Remove,
install new driver from video card boxed CD.

I'm not much of a gamer. My main game is Hoyle Puzzle Games 2003,
which has Mahjong and other similar board and card games. ;-) I _do_
have Flight Simulator 2003 but haven't even tried it in years; I can
never get past a point in the third lesson before washing out.

But I do think I might upgrade to Windows 7 or 8 on the desktop so I'd
like a video card that is compatible with that.

For now, I'll see if I can get the guy at ComputersCanada to put in
another video card and see if it fires up with memory in the A1/A2
slots.

By the way, I said I assumed I was out of luck if I'd fried the new
memory and he said not necessarily since I'd only just purchased it.
He said if I went back to the manufacturer and said the right words,
they'd probably give me my money back. So maybe I'll give that a
whirl. If the B1/B2 slots aren't getting recognized anyway, I don't
need the extra memory unless I go for a new CPU.

Thanks very much for your help so far, Paul!! You've been great with
answering my dumbass questions and helping me go in a sensible
direction. I really appreciate that.

In terms of video card test options:

1) Borrow a PCI Express x16 card. This test case, would be a check
* * that the 9500 GT is at fault. Now, say the replacement card doesn't
* * work either. Then, we do (2).
2) Borrow a *PCI* video card. I have an FX5200 that fits in a PCI slot.
* * I use it, when flashing the BIOS on a "better" video card. The
* * card is a stinker in terms of performance, and so it does not
* * stay inside any computer. But it does function as a "screen" to use,
* * while debugging. If the PCI video card works, but the PCI Express
* * one doesn't, then the PCI Express x16 slot is blown, and that
* * means the AMD 770 chipset is damaged (new motherboard). This is
* * highly unlikely to be the case. However, if you want a morale
* * booster, there's nothing like trying the PCI card and getting
* * to see a BIOS screen. So if you had a PCI card in your stock,
* * you could try that. In a few years, they won't be putting PCI slots
* * in systems any more. PCI is removed from a few new systems, already.

This is the cheapest PCI test card. A 6200. $40. Similar to my FX 5200.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130466

This is the "most useful" PCI test card, in that driver
support might last for a while. GeForce 210 PCI. $53

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814187206

A GT 630 for $60. This would allow some gaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814130792

A GT 640 for $85. This would allow some gaming.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814162113

Video cards can come with GDDR3 or GDDR5 memory, and generally
the ones with GDDR5 are better (give better memory bandwidth).
For similar video cards (say, cards from $80 to $130) with the
same model number, there could be up to a factor of four
difference, in the performance of the memory subsystem.
So while you might think a model number is a "constant",
you actually have to pick through them, to find a
"good value" card. The above examples were picked solely
on price, and don't represent a "full shopping analysis".
However, if you're motivated by price, then just using
price as a selector is fine.

This list, gives simple-minded single point analysis of cards.
We don't know how a Passmark, correlates with game play. No idea.

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php

GeForce FX 5200 * * * * 7 *--- My old test card. Wow. The test is
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *obviously using a feature the 5200 does
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *not have. Software emulation is used.
GeForce 6200 * * * * * 46 *--- A screamer... Not.
GeForce 210 * * * * * 184 *--- Note: A gaming stinker, OK as a tester only.
GeForce 7900 GT/GTO * 240 *--- My best video card. Yeah!
GeForce 9500 GT * * * 291 *--- Your current card. Rest in peace.
GeForce GT 630 * * * *718 * * * $60
GeForce GT 640 * * * 1306 * * * $85

None of the example cards above, have a PCI Express 2x3 power
connector. Similar I think, to your 9500 GT. I'm trying
to select cards, which have no extra requirements. The
GeForce 210 is OK for testing, but unimpressive otherwise.
Your existing card, beats mine by a bit. And the other two,
offer a slight improvement. The 630/640 might even be cooler at
idle.

HTH,
* * *Paul

On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

This is starting to sound very expensive.....

Might be cheaper to cut your losses and buy a new computer. I'm not sure about your area,
but where I live (Australia) you can buy a new AMD powered PC, box only, ie, no monitor.
keyboard or mouse, for under $300.

On 22 Apr, 18:35, Gettamulla Tupya wrote:
On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
This is starting to sound very expensive.....

Might be cheaper to cut your losses and buy a new computer. *I'm not sure about your area,
but where I live (Australia) you can buy a new AMD powered PC, box only, ie, no monitor.
keyboard or mouse, for under $300.

I'm definitely not going to rule that out, although money is really
tight for me right now and I'd still prefer to spend a lot less than
that to get back up and running.

On 4/22/2013 4:11 PM, wrote:
On 22 Apr, 18:35, Gettamulla Tupya wrote:
On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
This is starting to sound very expensive.....

Might be cheaper to cut your losses and buy a new computer. I'm not sure about your area,
but where I live (Australia) you can buy a new AMD powered PC, box only, ie, no monitor.
keyboard or mouse, for under $300.

I'm definitely not going to rule that out, although money is really
tight for me right now and I'd still prefer to spend a lot less than
that to get back up and running.


There is an on-off switch for the PSU. Was this turned back on
after re-connecting the computer to the power outlet? If so, no
green light usually means a failed power supply if not both the
PSU and motherboard. Ever think that your system is undergoing
a "cascading" failure, where one fault triggers another and so
on?

So far, the replacement parts might, at the very best, include
a new video card and a PSU. Depending on how went the diagnostic
tests, it could also mean adding a new motherboard, CPU and new
RAM chips. A new CPU or/and motherboard also means another OS
unless the existing OS installed is a retail-box one. The cost
of the diagnosis and repairs is fast approaching $500, including
the $40 diagnostic fee that will probably not be credited towards
replacement parts or a new system.

The best alternative? Perhaps a bare-bone systems using whatever
parts can be salvaged from the existing system. IOW, you are not
going to be saving much money.

GR

wrote:

Why would my problem get worse? Is this
now a triple fault??

I have a strong suspicion that the next step is the fully $40
diagnostic and that we may now have THREE active problems:
a) the dead fan on the video card
b) the dead B channel for the memory, possibly attributable to the CPU
c) a dead power supply

This is starting to sound very expensive.....

The $40 diagnosis, is beginning to sound pretty good about now.
Head off to the store, and see what they say. If the repair
list is too expensive, then bail.

*******

All the fun, is in the guessing right now. Your diagnostics
guy, will be able to figure this out for sure.

I'm guessing +5VSB is being shorted by the motherboard, for
some reason.

I would pull the supply, put it on the bench, turn it on,
then connect PS_ON# to COM with a jumper wire. (I have a
home-made load tester, with a switch to do that.)

My guess is, with no load, the +5VSB rail (the thing that
runs the green LED), will come back. But, as soon as the
power supply is connected to the motherboard, and the
motherboard draws more than two or three amps from +5VSB,
both the LED will be off and the supply (main section) will
be off.

I have a clamp-on DC ammeter, that I can test for that here.
(Check the current draw on each rail.)

The next test case, is placing a load on the supply that
at least manages to spin its cooling fan. I have a power
supply here, that passes the simple switch test (join
PS_ON# to COM). But, as soon as you draw even a tiny bit
of current from +12V (more than 0.1 amps), the +12V rail
drops to nothing. If I were to connect my load box (maybe
100 watts of loading), that supply is useless. So there
will be cases, where the problem shows ("weak supply"),
only after you connect a representative load. The voltages
from that supply are normal, when nothing is connected to
it as a load.

Your diagnostics guy will know how to do these tests,
and come to some conclusion. Considering the number of
things wrong with the system now, just the runtime alone
for all the tests, is going to soak up the entire $40.

Paul

On 22 Apr, 21:22, Paul wrote:
wrote:
Why would my problem get worse? Is this
now a triple fault??

I have a strong suspicion that the next step is the fully $40
diagnostic and that we may now have THREE active problems:
a) the dead fan on the video card
b) the dead B channel for the memory, possibly attributable to the CPU
c) a dead power supply

This is starting to sound very expensive.....

The $40 diagnosis, is beginning to sound pretty good about now.
Head off to the store, and see what they say. If the repair
list is too expensive, then bail.

*******

I'm just back from taking the tower to the computer store. I went over
the situation with the same guy as before, whose name is Richard.
Unfortunately, he, had no recollection of our previous conversation
but gradually started to recall it as we went along.

Richard was really quite helpful and immediately started to try some
things to isolate the problem. I think he really wanted to figure out
what had failed so that he could sell me whatever I needed and get
back up and running immediately.

All the fun, is in the guessing right now. Your diagnostics
guy, will be able to figure this out for sure.

I'm guessing +5VSB is being shorted by the motherboard, for
some reason.

One of the first things he did was disconnect a large connector from
the mobo and attach it to a digital tester. (Don't ask me what the
tester is called; it looked like an oversized pager and gave digital
readouts on the display but that's all I can tell you.)

He tested 12 V first and said that part was fine, although the reading
may have been just a wee bit on the low side. I mentioned that you had
concerns about the 5 V circuit and he tested that next. He found the
numbers unreasonably low on the 5 V rail and seemed to be homing in on
the power supply as at least one of our culprits.

I would pull the supply, put it on the bench, turn it on,
then connect PS_ON# to COM with a jumper wire. (I have a
home-made load tester, with a switch to do that.)

I thought about doing this but: a) I've never tried removing a power
supply and with all the wires coming out of it, found the prospect a
bit daunting for fear that I would not be able to put it back together
again
b) the only test equipment I have is one very cheap voltmeter
c) I'm not sure where to find PS_ON# or COM
d) I'm not sure what a jumper wire is or if I could construct one out
of materials at hand. I'm guessing it's just a normal length of wire
with insulation on it and bare ends, which I could find but if it's
something else, I might not have it

My guess is, with no load, the +5VSB rail (the thing that
runs the green LED), will come back. But, as soon as the
power supply is connected to the motherboard, and the
motherboard draws more than two or three amps from +5VSB,
both the LED will be off and the supply (main section) will
be off.

I have a clamp-on DC ammeter, that I can test for that here.
(Check the current draw on each rail.)

I think that's essentially what Richard did with his tester, as
reported above.

The next test case, is placing a load on the supply that
at least manages to spin its cooling fan. I have a power
supply here, that passes the simple switch test (join
PS_ON# to COM). But, as soon as you draw even a tiny bit
of current from +12V (more than 0.1 amps), the +12V rail
drops to nothing. If I were to connect my load box (maybe
100 watts of loading), that supply is useless. So there
will be cases, where the problem shows ("weak supply"),
only after you connect a representative load. The voltages
from that supply are normal, when nothing is connected to
it as a load.

I mentioned that the fan on the video card wasn't moving and couldn't
be made to turn by gentle finger pressure. He agreed that it was
seized. In answer to my question, he said that if I wasn't working the
card very hard, that fan could have seized months ago and not shown
any symptoms. He tried another video card and we were able to get into
the BIOS. He said the 5 V and 12 V numbers looked good in there.

However, we had a message about the CPU fan. He changed a bunch of
settings with regards to the CPU fan and then we got a lot of beeps on
the next bootup. He seemed confident that the CPU fan should be
replaced and showed me one that he said would be perfectly good for
$15. It was starting to look like a new video card and a new CPU fan
might be the extent of the problems. However, there were still doubts
about the power supply.

I gave him a printout of my diagnostic tests with the memory. We
discussed this and he was concerned about the B1/B2 DIMM slots. He
said there might be an issue with the motherboard that tied the
various problems together but that was not trivial to diagnose. When
he saw that the CPU fan WOULD turn just fine in cases where we got no
beep codes, I think he realized that things were more complicated than
he first hoped. I was certainly confused since he'd indicated possible
problems with the power supply, CPU fan, motherboard, as well as the
video card. So I suggested maybe the full diagnostic for $40 was the
way to confirm exactly which components had failed and he agreed.

So I left him the tower and memory and paid for the diagnostic. He's
going to try to have the results for me for Thursday but he's got
quite a lot in his queue so it might take longer.

He's even going to take a whirl at fixing the video card. I think he
wants to try cleaning and lubricating the fan to see if that gets it
behaving again.

Your diagnostics guy will know how to do these tests,
and come to some conclusion. Considering the number of
things wrong with the system now, just the runtime alone
for all the tests, is going to soak up the entire $40.


I suspect it's going to feel like money well-spent once we have a
relatively definitive set of results. Maybe, just maybe, I'll still
get out of this without having to spend a fortune....

I'll let you know what he reports. I'm sure you're curious to know
what the problem ultimately was ;-)
--
Rhino

wrote:


I'm just back from taking the tower to the computer store. I went over
the situation with the same guy as before, whose name is Richard.
Unfortunately, he, had no recollection of our previous conversation
but gradually started to recall it as we went along.

Richard was really quite helpful and immediately started to try some
things to isolate the problem. I think he really wanted to figure out
what had failed so that he could sell me whatever I needed and get
back up and running immediately.

All the fun, is in the guessing right now. Your diagnostics
guy, will be able to figure this out for sure.

I'm guessing +5VSB is being shorted by the motherboard, for
some reason.

One of the first things he did was disconnect a large connector from
the mobo and attach it to a digital tester. (Don't ask me what the
tester is called; it looked like an oversized pager and gave digital
readouts on the display but that's all I can tell you.)

He tested 12 V first and said that part was fine, although the reading
may have been just a wee bit on the low side. I mentioned that you had
concerns about the 5 V circuit and he tested that next. He found the
numbers unreasonably low on the 5 V rail and seemed to be homing in on
the power supply as at least one of our culprits.

I would pull the supply, put it on the bench, turn it on,
then connect PS_ON# to COM with a jumper wire. (I have a
home-made load tester, with a switch to do that.)

I thought about doing this but: a) I've never tried removing a power
supply and with all the wires coming out of it, found the prospect a
bit daunting for fear that I would not be able to put it back together
again
b) the only test equipment I have is one very cheap voltmeter
c) I'm not sure where to find PS_ON# or COM
d) I'm not sure what a jumper wire is or if I could construct one out
of materials at hand. I'm guessing it's just a normal length of wire
with insulation on it and bare ends, which I could find but if it's
something else, I might not have it

My guess is, with no load, the +5VSB rail (the thing that
runs the green LED), will come back. But, as soon as the
power supply is connected to the motherboard, and the
motherboard draws more than two or three amps from +5VSB,
both the LED will be off and the supply (main section) will
be off.

I have a clamp-on DC ammeter, that I can test for that here.
(Check the current draw on each rail.)

I think that's essentially what Richard did with his tester, as
reported above.

The next test case, is placing a load on the supply that
at least manages to spin its cooling fan. I have a power
supply here, that passes the simple switch test (join
PS_ON# to COM). But, as soon as you draw even a tiny bit
of current from +12V (more than 0.1 amps), the +12V rail
drops to nothing. If I were to connect my load box (maybe
100 watts of loading), that supply is useless. So there
will be cases, where the problem shows ("weak supply"),
only after you connect a representative load. The voltages
from that supply are normal, when nothing is connected to
it as a load.

I mentioned that the fan on the video card wasn't moving and couldn't
be made to turn by gentle finger pressure. He agreed that it was
seized. In answer to my question, he said that if I wasn't working the
card very hard, that fan could have seized months ago and not shown
any symptoms. He tried another video card and we were able to get into
the BIOS. He said the 5 V and 12 V numbers looked good in there.

However, we had a message about the CPU fan. He changed a bunch of
settings with regards to the CPU fan and then we got a lot of beeps on
the next bootup. He seemed confident that the CPU fan should be
replaced and showed me one that he said would be perfectly good for
$15. It was starting to look like a new video card and a new CPU fan
might be the extent of the problems. However, there were still doubts
about the power supply.

I gave him a printout of my diagnostic tests with the memory. We
discussed this and he was concerned about the B1/B2 DIMM slots. He
said there might be an issue with the motherboard that tied the
various problems together but that was not trivial to diagnose. When
he saw that the CPU fan WOULD turn just fine in cases where we got no
beep codes, I think he realized that things were more complicated than
he first hoped. I was certainly confused since he'd indicated possible
problems with the power supply, CPU fan, motherboard, as well as the
video card. So I suggested maybe the full diagnostic for $40 was the
way to confirm exactly which components had failed and he agreed.

So I left him the tower and memory and paid for the diagnostic. He's
going to try to have the results for me for Thursday but he's got
quite a lot in his queue so it might take longer.

He's even going to take a whirl at fixing the video card. I think he
wants to try cleaning and lubricating the fan to see if that gets it
behaving again.

Your diagnostics guy will know how to do these tests,
and come to some conclusion. Considering the number of
things wrong with the system now, just the runtime alone
for all the tests, is going to soak up the entire $40.


I suspect it's going to feel like money well-spent once we have a
relatively definitive set of results. Maybe, just maybe, I'll still
get out of this without having to spend a fortune....

I'll let you know what he reports. I'm sure you're curious to know
what the problem ultimately was ;-)
--
Rhino

I think he's doing well so far.

About the only area he might be going off the rails, is with
regard to the B1/B2 symptoms.

An AMD motherboard, where the memory controller is inside the
processor, the motherboard contributes precious little to the
test results. The motherboard is just a bunch of copper wires
in that path. The motherboard copper wires, join the memory
controller inside the CPU, to the DIMM slots.

The fact that you got into the BIOS, means A1/A2 are working,
means A1/A2 had working VDIMM and Vtt supplies. In other words,
the motherboard has proved its merits.

His next step in resolving the B1/B2 problem, is to install
his test AM2 processor, and note that B1/B2 start working
again. Then, his conclusion will be, new CPU.

That's my best guess at this point.

*******

A computer motherboard is tremendously complex. Many kinds of
failures are theoretically possible (and I've seen a bunch
under lab conditions). The thing about production components,
motherboards made in the millions, a number of fault types
just don't happen. This is a function of the degree of control
the factory has, over the quality.

That leaves only a certain set of classes of failure, to be
seen in the field. 99% of the faults will fall into those
classes. For example, things exposed to the user, where
the user can "zap" things with static electricity, that
opens some fault possibilities. But those faults are "outward
facing", things like blown USB ports on a USB2 NEC chip.
Internal signals, like signals from Southbridge to Ethernet
controller, you never find those blown out. Similarly, you
never find cracked PCB copper traces. It just doesn't happen.
99.5% of the time, it's going to be something else which is
damaged, not the traces.

I had a poor quality PCB shop in town, which used to make
board blanks for us. We ordered small quantities from them.
A board blank came in, we built it up, soldered components
to it, tested it, stored it in a shelf PCB holder for later.
That board tested as good. Three months later, I tested it
again and it failed. My boss sent it out for bed-of-nails
testing, and the tester showed that over 200 copper traces
had gone open circuit. That means the blank PCB was defective,
(open circuits happened while the PCB was cold and stored
unpowered in the lab) and was fabricated improperly.
Now, our production boards, *never* do that. Neither do the
three million boards a month that Asus might make. The shop in
town was disqualified as a supplier, and we shopped elsewhere.

So when I listen to a set of symptoms here, I tend to dismiss
some fault types as very unlikely. In the case of your DIMM
problem, I see evidence the DIMMs are being powered OK. Since
the A1/A2 are working, that leaves connectivity on B1/B2
(bent pins, broken trace, or bad CPU). You've verified no bent
pins, the symptoms affect both B1/B2, and that says bad CPU.
As to when it blew, we'll never know. If could be, that the
B-bus was bad on the CPU from day one. But more likely,
something happened when you were plugging in DIMMs. So while
lots of things could happen (as in my example, broken traces),
the vast amount of evidence out there, is broken traces
just don't happen on production boards. Production systems
use closed loop feedback, to tune production and watch for
problems. For example, in our production, we got a bad
batch of boards, and it was detected by impedance coupon
testing, and the boards didn't even get loaded into the
pick and place machine. The boards were put aside, to be
cross-sectioned and checked. they were out of spec, and
the supplier ate the loss. They're actually supposed to
check the impedance coupon themselves, as part of their
checks.

*******

On the video card, I'd inspect the plastic fan body for
signs of melting. If it's melted, that means the chip
temperature went too hot. (The fact the bearing is seized,
means something, but I don't know what.) I don't see any
evidence right now, that the 9500 GT can be recovered. The
fact his shop video card worked, rules out a bad PCI Express x16
slot. (Note that, it's possible to blow lanes on an x16
slot, and the slot will still work. The negotiation just
narrows down the lane set, and you get reduced slot
bandwidth. What the slot can't handle well, is if lane 0
fails, then that would be deadly. Lane 15 isn't nearly as
important, and if lane 15 fails, it can run in x8 mode.)

Paul

On 23 Apr, 16:05, Paul wrote:
wrote:
I'm just back from taking the tower to the computer store. I went over
the situation with the same guy as before, whose name is Richard.
Unfortunately, he, had no recollection of our previous conversation
but gradually started to recall it as we went along.

Richard was really quite helpful and immediately started to try some
things to isolate the problem. I think he really wanted to figure out
what had failed so that he could sell me whatever I needed and get
back up and running immediately.

All the fun, is in the guessing right now. Your diagnostics
guy, will be able to figure this out for sure.

I'm guessing +5VSB is being shorted by the motherboard, for
some reason.

One of the first things he did was disconnect a large connector from
the mobo and attach it to a digital tester. (Don't ask me what the
tester is called; it looked like an oversized pager and gave digital
readouts on the display but that's all I can tell you.)

He tested 12 V first and said that part was fine, although the reading
may have been just a wee bit on the low side. I mentioned that you had
concerns about the 5 V circuit and he tested that next. He found the
numbers unreasonably low on the 5 V rail and seemed to be homing in on
the power supply as at least one of our culprits.

I would pull the supply, put it on the bench, turn it on,
then connect PS_ON# to COM with a jumper wire. (I have a
home-made load tester, with a switch to do that.)

I thought about doing this but: a) I've never tried removing a power
supply and with all the wires coming out of it, found the prospect a
bit daunting for fear that I would not be able to put it back together
again
b) the only test equipment I have is one very cheap voltmeter
c) I'm not sure where to find PS_ON# or COM
d) I'm not sure what a jumper wire is or if I could construct one out
of materials at hand. I'm guessing it's just a normal length of wire
with insulation on it and bare ends, which I could find but if it's
something else, I might not have it

My guess is, with no load, the +5VSB rail (the thing that
runs the green LED), will come back. But, as soon as the
power supply is connected to the motherboard, and the
motherboard draws more than two or three amps from +5VSB,
both the LED will be off and the supply (main section) will
be off.

I have a clamp-on DC ammeter, that I can test for that here.
(Check the current draw on each rail.)

I think that's essentially what Richard did with his tester, as
reported above.

The next test case, is placing a load on the supply that
at least manages to spin its cooling fan. I have a power
supply here, that passes the simple switch test (join
PS_ON# to COM). But, as soon as you draw even a tiny bit
of current from +12V (more than 0.1 amps), the +12V rail
drops to nothing. If I were to connect my load box (maybe
100 watts of loading), that supply is useless. So there
will be cases, where the problem shows ("weak supply"),
only after you connect a representative load. The voltages
from that supply are normal, when nothing is connected to
it as a load.

I mentioned that the fan on the video card wasn't moving and couldn't
be made to turn by gentle finger pressure. He agreed that it was
seized. In answer to my question, he said that if I wasn't working the
card very hard, that fan could have seized months ago and not shown
any symptoms. He tried another video card and we were able to get into
the BIOS. He said the 5 V and 12 V numbers looked good in there.

However, we had a message about the CPU fan. He changed a bunch of
settings with regards to the CPU fan and then we got a lot of beeps on
the next bootup. He seemed confident that the CPU fan should be
replaced and showed me one that he said would be perfectly good for
$15. It was starting to look like a new video card and a new CPU fan
might be the extent of the problems. However, there were still doubts
about the power supply.

I gave him a printout of my diagnostic tests with the memory. We
discussed this and he was concerned about the B1/B2 DIMM slots. He
said there might be an issue with the motherboard that tied the
various problems together but that was not trivial to diagnose. When
he saw that the CPU fan WOULD turn just fine in cases where we got no
beep codes, I think he realized that things were more complicated than
he first hoped. I was certainly confused since he'd indicated possible
problems with the power supply, CPU fan, motherboard, as well as the
video card. So I suggested maybe the full diagnostic for $40 was the
way to confirm exactly which components had failed and he agreed.

So I left him the tower and memory and paid for the diagnostic. He's
going to try to have the results for me for Thursday but he's got
quite a lot in his queue so it might take longer.

He's even going to take a whirl at fixing the video card. I think he
wants to try cleaning and lubricating the fan to see if that gets it
behaving again.

Your diagnostics guy will know how to do these tests,
and come to some conclusion. Considering the number of
things wrong with the system now, just the runtime alone
for all the tests, is going to soak up the entire $40.

I suspect it's going to feel like money well-spent once we have a
relatively definitive set of results. Maybe, just maybe, I'll still
get out of this without having to spend a fortune....

I'll let you know what he reports. I'm sure you're curious to know
what the problem ultimately was ;-)
--
Rhino

I think he's doing well so far.

About the only area he might be going off the rails, is with
regard to the B1/B2 symptoms.

An AMD motherboard, where the memory controller is inside the
processor, the motherboard contributes precious little to the
test results. The motherboard is just a bunch of copper wires
in that path. The motherboard copper wires, join the memory
controller inside the CPU, to the DIMM slots.

The fact that you got into the BIOS, means A1/A2 are working,
means A1/A2 had working VDIMM and Vtt supplies. In other words,
the motherboard has proved its merits.

His next step in resolving the B1/B2 problem, is to install
his test AM2 processor, and note that B1/B2 start working
again. Then, his conclusion will be, new CPU.

That's my best guess at this point.

*******

A computer motherboard is tremendously complex. Many kinds of
failures are theoretically possible (and I've seen a bunch
under lab conditions). The thing about production components,
motherboards made in the millions, a number of fault types
just don't happen. This is a function of the degree of control
the factory has, over the quality.

That leaves only a certain set of classes of failure, to be
seen in the field. 99% of the faults will fall into those
classes. For example, things exposed to the user, where
the user can "zap" things with static electricity, that
opens some fault possibilities. But those faults are "outward
facing", things like blown USB ports on a USB2 NEC chip.
Internal signals, like signals from Southbridge to Ethernet
controller, you never find those blown out. Similarly, you
never find cracked PCB copper traces. It just doesn't happen.
99.5% of the time, it's going to be something else which is
damaged, not the traces.

I don't think he considers damaged traces very likely, more of an
outside possibility. He said he wasn't going to go over the whole mobo
with a voltmeter testing each circuit. For one thing, he said he
doesn't have a voltmeter ;-) But mostly the issue is time; checking
every circuit would take a LONG time. Basically, he said it just isn't
done; instead, the mobo is replaced if it turns out to be the
problem.

I had a poor quality PCB shop in town, which used to make
board blanks for us. We ordered small quantities from them.
A board blank came in, we built it up, soldered components
to it, tested it, stored it in a shelf PCB holder for later.
That board tested as good. Three months later, I tested it
again and it failed. My boss sent it out for bed-of-nails
testing, and the tester showed that over 200 copper traces
had gone open circuit. That means the blank PCB was defective,
(open circuits happened while the PCB was cold and stored
unpowered in the lab) and was fabricated improperly.
Now, our production boards, *never* do that. Neither do the
three million boards a month that Asus might make. The shop in
town was disqualified as a supplier, and we shopped elsewhere.

PCB is the material the circuit board is made of, right? The basic
green plastic? Poly-something-something? My knowledge of electronics
and the techniques used to make chips and boards is negligible. I
projected a film that talked about the process once when I had a part-
time gig showing films on campus and that's been pretty much my whole
exposure to electronics, I'm afraid ;-) And that was 30+ years ago so
even that isn't very up-to-date ;-)

So when I listen to a set of symptoms here, I tend to dismiss
some fault types as very unlikely. In the case of your DIMM
problem, I see evidence the DIMMs are being powered OK. Since
the A1/A2 are working, that leaves connectivity on B1/B2
(bent pins, broken trace, or bad CPU). You've verified no bent
pins, the symptoms affect both B1/B2, and that says bad CPU.
As to when it blew, we'll never know. If could be, that the
B-bus was bad on the CPU from day one. But more likely,
something happened when you were plugging in DIMMs. So while
lots of things could happen (as in my example, broken traces),
the vast amount of evidence out there, is broken traces
just don't happen on production boards. Production systems
use closed loop feedback, to tune production and watch for
problems. For example, in our production, we got a bad
batch of boards, and it was detected by impedance coupon
testing, and the boards didn't even get loaded into the
pick and place machine. The boards were put aside, to be
cross-sectioned and checked. they were out of spec, and
the supplier ate the loss. They're actually supposed to
check the impedance coupon themselves, as part of their
checks.

No, that makes perfect sense. Look for things that actually happen in
the real world; don't worry about things that are only theoretically
possible but never seen.

*******

On the video card, I'd inspect the plastic fan body for
signs of melting. If it's melted, that means the chip
temperature went too hot. (The fact the bearing is seized,
means something, but I don't know what.) I don't see any
evidence right now, that the 9500 GT can be recovered. The
fact his shop video card worked, rules out a bad PCI Express x16
slot. (Note that, it's possible to blow lanes on an x16
slot, and the slot will still work. The negotiation just
narrows down the lane set, and you get reduced slot
bandwidth. What the slot can't handle well, is if lane 0
fails, then that would be deadly. Lane 15 isn't nearly as
important, and if lane 15 fails, it can run in x8 mode.)

I expect Richard will do something along those lines. I was a little
suprised that he even considered fixing the card. He'd earlier said
you can't really fix them and pointed out that a decent replacement
card (I don't recall which one) was only about $45. Then suddenly he
talked about repairs. I suspect he was really hoping to diagnose the
whole problem with what he did today and is offering to try fixing the
video card as sort of a consolation for him having to ding me $40 for
the diagnostic....

In any case, I have reasonable comfort that he is competent which is a
big hurdle. It wouldn't be hard for him to tell me a bunch of BS but I
think he was actually being straight with me.

Here's hoping he is!

--
Rhino