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#1
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UPS unit needed for the P4C800E-Deluxe
What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe.
I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. Jimbo |
#2
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First, there are 3 major classes of "SOHO" UPS.
1. Basic - a relay is used to switch to standby when the power fails. Minimal if any protection against surges, none against bown outs (voltage droops). Here, the mains powers a battery charger when needed and flows straight to the computer normally - surges will run straight through unless there are surge suppressors added in the design. When a fail occurs, the relay simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries. The time to switch is critical - too slow and your computer will crash. The inverter is usually crude - square wave output with poor power characteristics. Not really that useful. 2. Better - faster switching. May have proper surge protection etc. Perhaps sine wave output. These are a bit dearer than those above, but usually quite less expensive than the next. 3. Best - Output power runs off the inverter full time. Mains powers battery charger full time. Surges are suppressed, but if big may go into the charger and are further suppressed by it and the huge capacitance of the battery, but excellent isolation as output runs through its own inverter from the battery. These systems may have square wave output, but usually have sine wave and better quality output. Most expensive, but best to get. These UPS tend to have excellent surge and brown out suppression with no switch time problems since there is no switching. A good fast switching UPS is fine for many situations, but if you want peace of mind then get the True Online type. Often the Square vs. Sine wave output just doesn't matter too much. Avoid running peripherals of a UPS you just do not need in a power fail scenarion - Printers, possibly Monitors, consider LCD monitors for lower power consumption == better run time. Do not trust cheapo surge suppressors - many have a life of ONE surge! Get a lightning rod if you are in a risky area, and do not forget about surges through telco lines.(sisters house got hit by a strike on teleco lines down the road). It is the Back up ability (run time at full rated load or run time at the load you have) , Surge and Brown Out along with Switch speeds (for non True Online UPS) that are the measures to be satisfied with. If in doubt, test on your computer - simulate several power failures and check the PC stays up. Take manufacturers claims with a grain of salt - use google and check reviews. There are many 'domestic retail' el-cheapo brands that I would not touch ever. Be picky & research. Make sure you get a big enough UPS - I usually size them to use no more than 60% of power rating (real ratings). IE buy 1.5 x or more than what your computer needs max. Make sure you get an auto shutdown interface & software. Google on what people think of the s/w. Some is shyte. I have put in some MPC (? French) ups recently & the s/w is really good as are the UPS. APC have been around for a while. Some vendors web sites have online UPS calculators so give em a go - they tend to over estimate a bit. HTH "jimbo" wrote in message ... What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. Jimbo |
#3
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On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:34:10 -0500, in alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus,
"jimbo" wrote: What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying my P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. [snip] If poor-quality AC power (as opposed to simple power *failures*) is a concern -- as well it should be -- then the *minimum* functionality you should accept is what is commonly called "Line Interactive" (a marketing-ese term for full-time voltage regulation, usually combined with some degree of noise filtering and surge suppression). These types of units (such as the APC "SmartUPS" series) are still "standby" supplies, in the strictest sense of that term, since they still run the load off the AC mains under normal circumstances and switch it to the inverter's output only if/when it senses a serious power interruption; but they are nonetheless a HUGE improvement over the rot-gut "Backup Power Supply" (as exemplified by the APC "BackUPS" and "BackUPS Pro" series) which offer no significant degree of line conditioning. Better still is a true on-line "double conversion" supply. These units use a "bucket brigade" approach: The AC mains power is used *only* to run the battery charger, which in turn constantly (re-)charges the batteries, which in turn constantly power the inverter, which in turn *always* powers the load. It should be intuitively obvious that this provides the greatest degree of isolation between the power line (and the evils which lurk thereon) and the protected equipment. In fact, this is the *only* type of unit which truly deserves the term "Uninterruptable Power Supply". They used to be obscenely expensive compared to similarly-sized line-interactive units, but that situation is now much better... Decent double-conversion supplies can now be had for perhaps 1.5-2X the typical line-interactive equivalent -- and IMCO, they're worth every nickel. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. [snip] ITYM "550W". But that's still a fairly hefty load, as desktop PCs go, especially if you're using a CRT-based monitor, as opposed to an LCD (remember, you'll need to power the monitor off the UPS too, in order to be able to interact with the system during a power failure -- if only to initiate an orderly shutdown). So choose your UPS capacity accordingly. While a 650-700VA unit might be "adequate", something in the 1KVA range will likely be your best bet. Besides, in this context, bigger is almost always better anyway (in terms of run-time with a given load, if nothing else); so don't scrimp. -- Jay T. Blocksom -------------------------------- Appropriate Technology, Inc. usenet02[at]appropriate-tech.net "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Unsolicited advertising sent to this domain is expressly prohibited under 47 USC S227 and State Law. Violators are subject to prosecution. |
#4
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A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for
a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries" type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing useful. Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated. But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer - galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS provides less protection than what already exists inside a standard power supply - even 30 years ago. Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this existing protection and often don't even know what a power supply does. Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient - assuming a bean counter did not select the supply. After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is required and already inside that power supply. Look at those so many layers of protection. But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage). Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some undersized power strip protectors have even more joules. Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number yourself. Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection. Then forget to mention how little that protection really is. Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of protection is provided by the UPS. If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules. Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim protection. They tell half truths so that others will *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in UPSes. Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it. Where is the real weakness in computer protection? Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer assemblers. Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior power supplies into this market for greater profit. A minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted). A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing power supply functions? Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate' computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive transient. In summary: For effective protection of computer components so that even a power supply failure does not damage motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago. Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies. For effective protection of data from blackouts and brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted. So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm the computer's internal protection, we install and properly earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI, smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine, furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for effective hardware protection. That means a minimally sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector. $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective motherboard protection? How does that make sense? jimbo wrote: What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. |
#5
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I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU.
The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the computer PSU. Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major electrical storm passes by. It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one facit. ability to service is another. I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7 systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I came in after the event. Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor that knows his/her stuff. "w_tom" wrote in message ... A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries" type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing useful. Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated. But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer - galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS provides less protection than what already exists inside a standard power supply - even 30 years ago. Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this existing protection and often don't even know what a power supply does. Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient - assuming a bean counter did not select the supply. After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is required and already inside that power supply. Look at those so many layers of protection. But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage). Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some undersized power strip protectors have even more joules. Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number yourself. Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection. Then forget to mention how little that protection really is. Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of protection is provided by the UPS. If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules. Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim protection. They tell half truths so that others will *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in UPSes. Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it. Where is the real weakness in computer protection? Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer assemblers. Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior power supplies into this market for greater profit. A minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted). A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing power supply functions? Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate' computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive transient. In summary: For effective protection of computer components so that even a power supply failure does not damage motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago. Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies. For effective protection of data from blackouts and brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted. So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm the computer's internal protection, we install and properly earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI, smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine, furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for effective hardware protection. That means a minimally sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector. $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective motherboard protection? How does that make sense? jimbo wrote: What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. |
#6
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The $multi-million telephone switching computer also
disconnect with every approaching thunderstorm. Millions of dollars connected to overhead wires everywhere in town. Since effective protection from lightning is not possible, then they must disconnect? OR, some people recommend ineffective UPSes for lightning protection. Why does the telco provide service during every lightning storm? Because 'whole house' protection techniques are that effective. Protection that a plug-in UPS cannot provide. I never unplug during thunderstorms. I follow thunderstorms on the computer - in real time. I don't worry about lightning damage because I don't depend on mythical protection from a plug-in UPS. By disparaging the protection inside a power supply, Mercury then says UPS protection as even worse. Numbers were provided. UPS has how few joules? Again, the numbers. Most every UPS connects its load (the computer) directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. How fast does that UPS relay disconnect? Milliseconds. Meanwhile, destructive, microsecond transients have long since done damage. 300 consecutive and destructive transients could pass through before that UPS started to isolate the load. Where is the protection? More damning numbers. Yes, UPS claims protection. Then we look at the numbers. Near zero protection is still protection. Just no effective. And that is the point. Without numbers, then junk science reasoning will claim UPS protection. Any protection that works on the power cord is already inside a power supply. One need only learn industry standard numbers or read the long list of numeric specs (a hint for identifying 'good' verses 'dumped' power supplies). Power supplies contain effective protection. But that protection may be overwhelmed by major transients (ie lightning). Transients passes right through UPS - unimpeded. But a 'whole house' protector earths before a destructive transient can overwhelm the power supply. So what is a UPS doing? Battery backup in case of blackouts or extreme brownouts - nothing more. To claim otherwise, one must provide numbers. For example, how many 'joules' inside a plug-in UPS? Mercury did not even provide that number. Where is the earth ground? No earth ground means no effective protection. Mercury also does not even mention earthing. Why does that plug-in UPS also avoid discussing earthing? Many previously posted reasons demonstrated that UPS does not provide effective protection. Insufficient joules. Relay inside UPS cannot switch fast enough. Power supply already has numerous layers of protection (starting with a line filter and ending with an overvoltage protector) whereas the UPS only connects that power supply direct to AC mains. UPS output so 'dirty' that it may even damage electric motors whereas computer power supply is so resilient as to even make 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Power supply must work 100% even when incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity (voltage sag or brownout). $100 for a UPS compared to $1 per appliance for the effective 'whole house' protector. A new reason why that UPS does not provide effective protection. The destructive transient does not get to motherboard through power supply (obviously). It uses the green safety ground wire to bypass UPS; connects transient direct to motherboard. Those recommending the UPS forget to mention that UPS transient protector circuits (measured in joules) shunt a destructive transient into that bypass wire. What does that transient seek? Earth ground. The UPS provides a new destructive path to earth via the motherboard - the bypass wire. What kind of protection is that? Again, ineffective. One more reason why the 'whole house' protector is required and why the plug-in UPS is so ineffective. Claims of UPS protection were made without numbers. Mercury is encouraged to provide numbers. Start, for example, with joules. Start, for example, with numbers listed in specs from that UPS manufacturer. Why do UPS manufacturer specs have so few numbers? They provide numbers they are required to provide - such as joules. Their specifications completely ignore another typically destructive transient so that consumers will *assume* total protection. Missing numbers. More damning facts. The 'whole house' protector does provide protection from all types of transients. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are earthed; building wide UPSes are earthed; plug-in UPSes are *not* earthed. Furthermore, the 'whole house' protector also costs tens of times less money. We don't unplug for thunderstorms. We install effective protection not found in plug-in UPSes. Protection defined by the most critical protection system component: single point earth ground. Effective protection inside a power supply is not overwhelmed when properly earthed protector is installed. Mercury wrote: I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU. The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the computer PSU. Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major electrical storm passes by. It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one facit. ability to service is another. I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7 systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I came in after the event. Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor that knows his/her stuff. "w_tom" wrote in message ... A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries" type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing useful. Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated. But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer - galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS provides less protection than what already exists inside a standard power supply - even 30 years ago. Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this existing protection and often don't even know what a power supply does. Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient - assuming a bean counter did not select the supply. After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is required and already inside that power supply. Look at those so many layers of protection. But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage). Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some undersized power strip protectors have even more joules. Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number yourself. Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection. Then forget to mention how little that protection really is. Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of protection is provided by the UPS. If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules. Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim protection. They tell half truths so that others will *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in UPSes. Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it. Where is the real weakness in computer protection? Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer assemblers. Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior power supplies into this market for greater profit. A minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted). A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing power supply functions? Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate' computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive transient. In summary: For effective protection of computer components so that even a power supply failure does not damage motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago. Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies. For effective protection of data from blackouts and brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted. So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm the computer's internal protection, we install and properly earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI, smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine, furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for effective hardware protection. That means a minimally sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector. $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective motherboard protection? How does that make sense? jimbo wrote: What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. |
#7
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Reread my original post - in that I did not recommend the basic or
intermediate UPS's, only the true online type in which all power runs across the battery which is isolated from the mains - somewhat - by the charger circuit. Where are you? US? Well earthing standards there are different to elsewhere. Here it is illegal to have an incorrectly wired business or house & these standards are enforced right thru to the earth wire to the UPS and computer PSU. Last I knew, only double insulated devices were allowed to not have an earth wire. These days RCD devices are common (but thats irrelevant). In the AT computer days you were required here to be a certified electrician before you could be employed servicing computers due to mains wiring and earthing requirements. Certainly the # of joules is important, but it is not as there is always potential for a larger surge in which case that filter / PSU / UPS / anything else is no use whatsoever. It comes down to what you can afford to prepare for. I always recommend lightning rods and prompt for double checks on the health of building earth systems - they can get damaged and when they are it is too late when you find out the hard way. (24x7 systems). Invariably it comes down to regional probability, requirements, and budget + Knowledge. Again, I will state *not* to trust the computer PSU from an electrical surge perspective. Don't forget that a switch mode PSU is like a tight rope walker - all is hunky dory so long as there isn't an earthquake. Computer PSU's are the most fallable part of acomputer next to the HDD. taking 110 or 230v, rectifying it, bunging it through a high voltage / high frequency transister osicillatorinto a compact torroidal transformer, then 'dumping' out often raw power via a simple diode / capacitor / sometimes inductor circuit is crude, however there is a lot of complexity in the controller electronics as you no doubt know - providing a feedback loop that is responsive while catering for short circuits etc. is actually one of the most overlooked examples of (usually) quality design, construction, and componentry. With all this advanced design and in reality great variety in quality of performance, I *would not* put any more trust into a computer PSU than risks indicate one should ! Actually there is no room for trust... I have read many stats on Computer PSU's but never noticed mention of surge protection - joules or not. "w_tom" wrote in message ... The $multi-million telephone switching computer also disconnect with every approaching thunderstorm. Millions of dollars connected to overhead wires everywhere in town. Since effective protection from lightning is not possible, then they must disconnect? OR, some people recommend ineffective UPSes for lightning protection. Why does the telco provide service during every lightning storm? Because 'whole house' protection techniques are that effective. Protection that a plug-in UPS cannot provide. I never unplug during thunderstorms. I follow thunderstorms on the computer - in real time. I don't worry about lightning damage because I don't depend on mythical protection from a plug-in UPS. By disparaging the protection inside a power supply, Mercury then says UPS protection as even worse. Numbers were provided. UPS has how few joules? Again, the numbers. Most every UPS connects its load (the computer) directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode. How fast does that UPS relay disconnect? Milliseconds. Meanwhile, destructive, microsecond transients have long since done damage. 300 consecutive and destructive transients could pass through before that UPS started to isolate the load. Where is the protection? More damning numbers. Yes, UPS claims protection. Then we look at the numbers. Near zero protection is still protection. Just no effective. And that is the point. Without numbers, then junk science reasoning will claim UPS protection. Any protection that works on the power cord is already inside a power supply. One need only learn industry standard numbers or read the long list of numeric specs (a hint for identifying 'good' verses 'dumped' power supplies). Power supplies contain effective protection. But that protection may be overwhelmed by major transients (ie lightning). Transients passes right through UPS - unimpeded. But a 'whole house' protector earths before a destructive transient can overwhelm the power supply. So what is a UPS doing? Battery backup in case of blackouts or extreme brownouts - nothing more. To claim otherwise, one must provide numbers. For example, how many 'joules' inside a plug-in UPS? Mercury did not even provide that number. Where is the earth ground? No earth ground means no effective protection. Mercury also does not even mention earthing. Why does that plug-in UPS also avoid discussing earthing? Many previously posted reasons demonstrated that UPS does not provide effective protection. Insufficient joules. Relay inside UPS cannot switch fast enough. Power supply already has numerous layers of protection (starting with a line filter and ending with an overvoltage protector) whereas the UPS only connects that power supply direct to AC mains. UPS output so 'dirty' that it may even damage electric motors whereas computer power supply is so resilient as to even make 'dirty' UPS electricity irrelevant. Power supply must work 100% even when incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity (voltage sag or brownout). $100 for a UPS compared to $1 per appliance for the effective 'whole house' protector. A new reason why that UPS does not provide effective protection. The destructive transient does not get to motherboard through power supply (obviously). It uses the green safety ground wire to bypass UPS; connects transient direct to motherboard. Those recommending the UPS forget to mention that UPS transient protector circuits (measured in joules) shunt a destructive transient into that bypass wire. What does that transient seek? Earth ground. The UPS provides a new destructive path to earth via the motherboard - the bypass wire. What kind of protection is that? Again, ineffective. One more reason why the 'whole house' protector is required and why the plug-in UPS is so ineffective. Claims of UPS protection were made without numbers. Mercury is encouraged to provide numbers. Start, for example, with joules. Start, for example, with numbers listed in specs from that UPS manufacturer. Why do UPS manufacturer specs have so few numbers? They provide numbers they are required to provide - such as joules. Their specifications completely ignore another typically destructive transient so that consumers will *assume* total protection. Missing numbers. More damning facts. The 'whole house' protector does provide protection from all types of transients. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. 'Whole house' protectors are earthed; building wide UPSes are earthed; plug-in UPSes are *not* earthed. Furthermore, the 'whole house' protector also costs tens of times less money. We don't unplug for thunderstorms. We install effective protection not found in plug-in UPSes. Protection defined by the most critical protection system component: single point earth ground. Effective protection inside a power supply is not overwhelmed when properly earthed protector is installed. Mercury wrote: I think you have a tad too much faith in the computer PSU. The whole point of a good UPS is to remove doubt about the quality of power available that would otherwise potentially damage the computer PSU. Surges in the form of lightning are of such a huge potential magnitude that some times the only solution is to unplug from the mains and move the equipment away from conductors. I sometimes shutdown and pull the plug on my own servers when a major electrical storm passes by. It is the intermediate, unpredictable events that warrant UPS and surge protection. The medium sized spikes that will fry the PSU and potentially all the componentry in the computer. The power fails are the obvious anomolies, as are the repeated failures. Continuity of service is only one facit. ability to service is another. I have come across some horrid scenarios: one a stock broker with 24 x 7 systems blown up because the earth wire was disconnected while attending to an unrelated fault. There is no point in telling me what they did wrong - I came in after the event. Before all else, the purchaser really should try to understand what they are buying, why, and why not buy it in a retail shop (how me a retailer that sells good UPS). If the purchase is large then get and independant advisor that knows his/her stuff. "w_tom" wrote in message ... A UPS from Mercury's first group is more than sufficient for a computer. In fact, that "when a fail occurs, the relay simply switches in a power converter to run off the batteries" type UPS is also called a "computer grade" UPS. Those other 'group 3' UPSes cost on the order of $500+ to provide nothing useful. Learn what a power supply does. First 120 VAC passes through line filters. Then 120 VAC is converted to 300 volts DC. Virtually all noise, spikes, and surges are eliminated. But your power supply provides more layers of protection. An oscillator converts that hundreds of volts DC to an AC voltage. Then voltage is filtered through a transformer - galvanic isolation. The transformer output is again converted to DC. Then that DC output is filtered but again. Then an overvoltage protection circuit further eliminates excessive spikes and noise. With so many layers of protection standard in power supplies, then what does a UPS do? Typical UPS provides less protection than what already exists inside a standard power supply - even 30 years ago. Those who recommend UPSes don't even discuss all this existing protection and often don't even know what a power supply does. Those standard layers of protection in a power supply is even why a square wave output (power that can harm some small electric motors and power strip protectors) still does not harm a computer. Computer power supplies are that resilient - assuming a bean counter did not select the supply. After so much hype about UPS protection, the bottom line remains: a UPS only protects data from blackouts and brownouts. Anything on power cord that protects hardware is required and already inside that power supply. Look at those so many layers of protection. But power supply does even MORE. A power supply must provide 100% power to every computer peripheral even when AC mains voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at only 40% intensity. Brownout is also called a voltage sag. Just another little fact that was standard even 30 years ago, and yet routinely forgotten today to hype UPSes. That UPS is for extreme brownouts (sags) and blackouts (no voltage). Does that UPSes provide better surge protection? We always demand numbers. The entire surge protection circuit is measured in joules. How many joules in that UPS? Identical circuit is also inside power strip protectors. Some undersized power strip protectors have even more joules. Why? Don't take my word for it. Look up the joules number yourself. Others will forget to cite numbers when making protection claims. Bottom line: claims about hardware protection from a plug-in UPS are mythical. All UPSes claim surge protection. Then forget to mention how little that protection really is. Both UPS and power strip have same undersized protection circuit - as measured by the same parameter - joules. Worse still: any protector damaged by a surge is ineffective - a waste of good money. There is no protection from a "have a life of ONE surge" protector. Yet even less joules of protection is provided by the UPS. If a power strip or UPS claims to protect from a surge that typically does not do damage, then why would they bother to properly size the protector? Notice that some "one time and throw away" power strip protectors may have more joules. Joules is a ballpark measurement of protector life expectancy. Ineffective protectors minimize joules to claim protection. They tell half truths so that others will *assume*. 'Hype' is the protection provided by plug-in UPSes. Switchover time for a UPS: If a UPS switched over to batteries too slowly, then the computer power supply is defective. Again, specs even from Intel say the power supply must provide interrupted power to computer; even when the UPS takes a longest time to switchover. Again, review those numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it. Where is the real weakness in computer protection? Repeatedly, everything necessary to protect at the power cord must be inside a computer's power supply. This assumes a computer assembler had sufficient knowledge to buy the minimally acceptable power supply. Assumes he was not a bean counter. Many computer assemblers could not even comprehend what Mercury posted let alone list essential power supply functions standard even 30 years ago. And Mercury did not even post useful numbers that intimidate many computer assemblers. Asian manufacturers discovered a lucrative market of technically naive computer assemblers. They dump inferior power supplies into this market for greater profit. A minimally acceptable supply must provide a long list of numerical specs (such as how long power can be interrupted). A minimally acceptable power supply must also cost at least $60 full retail. So instead, many hype a UPS to *fix* missing power supply functions? Again, all minimally acceptable power supplies include essential functions to protect a motherboard. Any function effective on the power cord must be inside that supply. But the rare and typically destructive transient can overwhelm this internal protection. IOW an electrically 'literate' computer expert appreciates why a less expensive and so necessary 'whole house' protector, as part of a protection 'system', protects a computer. Again, that plug-in UPS provides no such protection AND obviously cannot. The UPS has no critically necessary 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. This alone indicates a glaring deficiency. So instead, they even forget to mention the typically destructive transient. In summary: For effective protection of computer components so that even a power supply failure does not damage motherboard, disk drive, Ram, etc; the power supply must contain functions that were even standard 30 years ago. Functions so often missing in discounted power supplies. For effective protection of data from blackouts and brownouts, we install a plug-in UPS. Blackouts and brownouts do not harm hardware - except where myths are widely promoted. So that a typically destructive transient does not overwhelm the computer's internal protection, we install and properly earth a 'whole house' protector. It also protects other appliances such as a clock radio, bathroom and kitchen GFCI, smoke detector, dimmer switch, dishwasher and washing machine, furnace controls, etc. Spend less money per appliance for effective hardware protection. That means a minimally sufficient power supply AND the 'whole house' protector. $hundreds more for a UPS that provides no effective motherboard protection? How does that make sense? jimbo wrote: What is a good uninterruptible power supply unit for the Asus P4800E-Deluxe. I want to pick up a good one and avoid frying m P4 3.2 and other components during the many summer brownouts around here. I have 8 hard drives, 2 dvd drives and a 5550W PS. |
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Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance
solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the "true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in UPS is not effective. What does that UPS do that the power supply does not? Nothing. The plug-in UPS does not even claim those 1000+ volts isolation. Power supplies must withstand 1000+ volts as even required by industry and Intel specs. Robust protection inside a power supply - that still requires a 'whole house' protector. $500 for a true online type UPS provides no additional protection. $500 and the 'whole house' protector is still necessary? What kind of protection is that? Mythical. An eleventh reason why that true online type UPS is not effective. Is that plug-in UPS going to stop, block, or absorb what miles of sky could not? Are silly one inch parts (those parts that are woefully undersized; too few joules) going to stop what miles of air could not? Of course not. And yet 'somehow' a true online type UPS does just that? Nonsense. How many more reasons demonstrate what that UPS specification also says by omission. It does not provide effective transient protection. No earth ground means no effective protection - everywhere on earth. Even the true online UPS is not earthed (safety ground is electrically different from earthing; why the number 'less than 10 foot' is important). Therefore 'true online type' does not claim to protect from the typically destructive transient. Obviously. Protection is only as effective as that earthing connection. How many more reasons need be posted? Again, no numbers to demonstrate claims for this true online type UPS. No numbers means junk science reasoning. That UPS provides mythical hardware protection. Protection must factually exist. That means numbers. That also means earthing. "True online type" does not even discuss earthing - for good reason. How many joules in that "true online type" UPS? Never provided. $500 for ineffective protection - or $1 per for effective protection from a 'whole house' protector. Which makes more sense? Numbers again are damning. Mercury wrote: Reread my original post - in that I did not recommend the basic or intermediate UPS's, only the true online type in which all power runs across the battery which is isolated from the mains - somewhat - by the charger circuit. Where are you? US? Well earthing standards there are different to elsewhere. Here it is illegal to have an incorrectly wired business or house & these standards are enforced right thru to the earth wire to the UPS and computer PSU. Last I knew, only double insulated devices were allowed to not have an earth wire. These days RCD devices are common (but thats irrelevant). In the AT computer days you were required here to be a certified electrician before you could be employed servicing computers due to mains wiring and earthing requirements. Certainly the # of joules is important, but it is not as there is always potential for a larger surge in which case that filter / PSU / UPS / anything else is no use whatsoever. It comes down to what you can afford to prepare for. I always recommend lightning rods and prompt for double checks on the health of building earth systems - they can get damaged and when they are it is too late when you find out the hard way. (24x7 systems). Invariably it comes down to regional probability, requirements, and budget + Knowledge. Again, I will state *not* to trust the computer PSU from an electrical surge perspective. Don't forget that a switch mode PSU is like a tight rope walker - all is hunky dory so long as there isn't an earthquake. Computer PSU's are the most fallable part of acomputer next to the HDD. taking 110 or 230v, rectifying it, bunging it through a high voltage / high frequency transister osicillatorinto a compact torroidal transformer, then 'dumping' out often raw power via a simple diode / capacitor / sometimes inductor circuit is crude, however there is a lot of complexity in the controller electronics as you no doubt know - providing a feedback loop that is responsive while catering for short circuits etc. is actually one of the most overlooked examples of (usually) quality design, construction, and componentry. With all this advanced design and in reality great variety in quality of performance, I *would not* put any more trust into a computer PSU than risks indicate one should ! Actually there is no room for trust... I have read many stats on Computer PSU's but never noticed mention of surge protection - joules or not. |
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w_tom wrote:
Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the "true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in UPS is not effective. And exactly how does your "miracle" $1 part allow my computer to keep working 30 minutes after the local grid goes down? UPS systems are not bought to make the power going into the computer "safe", but to allow the computer to keep working even when the power grid is not. What does that UPS do that the power supply does not? Nothing. The plug-in UPS does not even claim those 1000+ volts isolation. Power supplies must withstand 1000+ volts as even required by industry and Intel specs. Robust protection inside a power supply - that still requires a 'whole house' protector. $500 for a true online type UPS provides no additional protection. $500 and the 'whole house' protector is still necessary? What kind of protection is that? Mythical. And how often do power supplies die in a puff of smoke? Far more often than your theoretical claims would have it. If they were so well built they would never fail, there would be no heartbreak of psoriasis, etc. snip further rantings |
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"w_tom" wrote in message ... Recommend the $500 UPS to solve what a $1 per appliance solution does? Again, even the green bypass wire makes the "true online type" UPS ineffective. Destructive transient bypasses the UPS. Just one of so many reasons why a plug-in UPS is not effective. What does that UPS do that the power supply does not? Nothing. The plug-in UPS does not even claim those 1000+ volts isolation. Power supplies must withstand 1000+ volts as even required by industry and Intel specs. Robust protection inside a power supply - that still requires a 'whole house' protector. $500 for a true online type UPS provides no additional protection. $500 and the 'whole house' protector is still necessary? What kind of protection is that? Mythical. I'm pretty sure I remember you from a similar discussion 3 or 4 years back. Serious questions: could you provide references, for those in the US 1) that give a quantitative analysis of you r summary of plug-in surge-protector performance? 2) That give a summary of whole-house surge protection? I looked into the latter years back, and found nothing -- no companies that offered a solution, and local electricians seemed puzzled by inquiries. Perhaps I just didn't know the correct terms. The few on-line references I found were light on science, and high on innuendo and supercilious condemnation. Like others, I'm mainly interested in a UPS ability to switch to emergency power when the grid goes down. The surge protection part of the UPS is fairly cheap, comppared to the power protection. I also surge-protect the lines that go through my attic and connect distant PCs, because some have the view that secondary induction of current in such lines is probably more common than desttruction from direct lightning hits. |
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