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Are mains surge protectors needed in the UK?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 8th 04, 10:44 PM
JULIAN HALES
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"Stormsinger" wrote in message
news
Lem wrote:

Are surge protectors on the main power supply actually needed in
the UK?

here in the UK we have few overhead mains power lines and have a
relatively steady mains power supply when compared to many other
countries (including the US).

However there seem to be very many surge protector products
advertised for sale in the UK (Argos, Maplins, etc).

I am quite sure it is not bad practice to use a surge protector but
in fact I have never known anyone who has has a problem from a
surge coming in through the power supply.

So personally I don't bother using a surge protector on my PC.

Am I being too complacent?


Probably. In my experience mains surges do not tend to cause problems,

either your
trip switch or the general robustness of most devices rules them out.

However.....

modems are different. If the strike hits a telephone pole then the

resulting surge
down the phone line can easily take out a modem, and if you're unlucky

your mobo as
well. Usually though your modem will act as a very expensive fuse.

Buy a surge protection device that also protects modems and you should be

okay. IMHO
Belkin are the best, but others may have a different view.

Look at it this way. A couple of years ago we had a massive storm in our

area -
apparently there were 30,000 odd lightening strikes over the county.

(according to
the electricity people). Over a two week period, I replaced several dozen

modems for
people who "suddenly couldn't get online". My supplier ran out of stock!

Even the
local PCWorld ran out (someone from there even phoned my business to see

if we had
any modems left in stock that they could buy!!).

You can save £30 or so and take the risk - its up to you in the end.




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Email addy is a spam trap - Spam will go to a spammer
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I had a house electrical check a few weeks back from the local council, 2
guys, well one guy and his chimp, while doing it i said i do not want any
testing or surges as i run a large lan, although pre powerd down, they said
it was a good job i told them as at the end its normal to do something and
shove a surge? of some kind around the system.


They said, and i knew before hand even tho switched off at the wall but
still plugged in it could have blown the lot, how true this is i dont know

Never had a surge pretector in years, always thought about it but never got
round to it, ok the LAN i have is cheap old junk, but the data should i lose
it would be a proble


  #12  
Old July 8th 04, 11:08 PM
half_pint
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"Johannes H Andersen"
wrote in message
news:40ED9651.397F529D@sizefitterlikneasfuongtuint gsjadfasejk.com...


half_pint wrote:

How about using a plug with the correct sized fuse in it?


No, a fuse takes time to burn. In the meantime the spike will do its work.


I still think it would prevent damage to your computer.
A lightening conductor myght be a better bet.

whats the point in saving your computer if you house is burnt out and
gutted?

I guess you can log on and tell folks about it :O)



Probably a lot cheaper?

Probably a waste of money.


If you're cheapskate, you can make one up from an old 50nF high voltage
capacitor. Anyway, they don't eat any bread and last a lifetime.

You probably have a greater chance of deing struck by
lightnening.


Depens where you stand :-)



  #13  
Old July 8th 04, 11:16 PM
lordy
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Lem wrote in :

[SNIP informative stuff I'm sure]

I just dont understand this bit..

plug-in protectors cost tens of times more money per protected
appliance.


"tens of times" more than what??


--
Lordy
  #14  
Old July 9th 04, 12:20 AM
Johannes H Andersen
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Lem wrote:

[...]

See this posting to a second thread started with the same posting
as this one.

It says the following.

====== QUOTE =======



The problem with this quote is that people might think it's too
complicated and simply give up. But protection is a matter of degree.
Clearly if it is a lab with expensive scientific equipment, they would
have more full proof protection, but my assertion is that simple
protection is better than no protection. A 50nF high voltage capacitor
across the appliance can kill many spikes and possibly increase the
life of a PSU, in many cases such protection is already included. Then
you can go on with more elaborate surge protectors for more and more
rare incidents. All these incidents are possible with associated
probabilities. In any case, a decent surge protector is a once only
investment, so why making a fuss about it?
  #15  
Old July 9th 04, 04:26 AM
David Maynard
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half_pint wrote:

How about using a plug with the correct sized fuse in it?


The proper fuse is always a good idea but fuses do not protect from power
line faults. They blow after your 'protected' device is fried and pulling
too much current as a result of it.


Probably a lot cheaper?

Probably a waste of money.

You probably have a greater chance of deing struck by
lightnening.



  #16  
Old July 9th 04, 05:42 AM
David Maynard
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Lem wrote:

Stormsinger wrote:
=20
=20
modems are different. If the strike hits a telephone pole then
the resulting surge down the phone line can easily take out a
modem, and if you're unlucky your mobo as well. Usually though
your modem will act as a very expensive fuse.=20

Buy a surge protection device that also protects modems and
you should be okay. IMHO Belkin are the best, but others may
have a different view.=20

Look at it this way. A couple of years ago we had a massive
storm in our area - apparently there were 30,000 odd
lightening strikes over the county. (according to the
electricity people). Over a two week period, I replaced
several dozen modems for people who "suddenly couldn't get
online". My supplier ran out of stock! Even the local PCWorld
ran out (someone from there even phoned my business to see if
we had any modems left in stock that they could buy!!).

You can save =A330 or so and take the risk - its up to you in
the end.=20

=20
=20
=20
See this posting to a second thread started with the same posting=20
as this one.
=20
It says the following.


The article below is misleading. They talk of earthing "all incoming=20
utilities" but fail to recognize that any incoming 'utility' is not simpl=
y=20
a single wire, as evidenced by their stating "even the CATV wire drops do=
wn=20
to earth ground." It's a coax cable folks, not a 'wire', and the wire in =

the middle is not 'earthed' or else there's be no signal. It IS however, =

'protected', to some degree, by the shield, which is what's earthed.

Power lines are more problematic. True, the incoming power line 'earth'=20
should be 'earthed', as they describe, but the others are not, or else yo=
ur=20
incoming power would be a direct short to each other through this common =

'earth' point.

The 'protection' for power and signal lines is an arc gap suppressor to=20
that common earth ground which, hopefully, arcs a lightning strike to ear=
th=20
at that point rather than having it find earth through the devices, or yo=
u,=20
in the home so lucky you end up with only a few hundreds, or thousands, o=
f=20
volts transients dancing around on the home wiring and your home equipmen=
t=20
with the brunt going through the arc gap suppressors.

Now you, as a human being, are probably safe from those remaining=20
transients, unless you have your finger stuck in a socket, but electronic=
=20
devices are not as they ARE plugged into the socket. And it is those=20
transients that an in-house transient/surge suppressor is meant to deal=20
with, not 'lightning strikes' per see.

It is true that small in-house 'protectors' are essentially useless if th=
e=20
home utilities AREN'T properly protected (earthed) but the implication=20
derived from the small snippet that if the home has 'proper' incoming sur=
ge=20
suppression that it's then 'safe' for electronic devices (I.E. they're=20
sufficiently 'protected') is simply hogwash.

It should also be obvious that if the surge protector has no path to eart=
h=20
then it's function is lost, which means the outlet(s) it's plugged into=20
must have the proper earth, or it's own wired earth. I.E. Using a '3 wire=
=20
to 2 wire adapter' on a surge suppressor disables the majority of it's=20
protection.

'Protection' is a multistage process. You have the 'protection' on the=20
utilities themselves, meaning the power company equipment/line outside th=
e=20
home, which absorb the brunt of most faults. Then there is the protection=
=20
going into the home, which depends on the incoming line impedance to limi=
t=20
the surge. And then you have protection (or lack thereof) from the=20
'remnants' left on the interior wiring.



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D QUOTE =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
A plug-in surge protector is on the order of tens of times
more money per protected appliance. Furthermore it does not
even claim to protect from the typically destructive
transient. Protectors do not stop, block, filter, or absorb
destructive transients. Ineffective protector manufacturers
get one to wish that is how they work. In reality, the
protector is not protection. Protector and protection are two
separate components of a surge protection system. Effective
systems must include the protection. And the connection to
protection is either a hardwire (less than 3 meters) or a
protector (also part of a less than 3 meter connection).
=20
In short, the protection is called single point earth
ground. Destructive surges may enter the building seeking
earth ground. If not earthed (either by hardwire connection
or by surge protector), then the destructive surge may find a
path to earth ground via computer. One classic example is due
to a direct strike to lines highest on utility poles - AC
electric. Incoming on AC electric, through computer and its
modem, then outgoing to earth ground via phone line. Many
then *assume* the surge entered on phone line, damaged modem,
then stopped - a violation of even primary school science.
=20
Effective protection means all incoming utilities are
earthed before entering the building. All must be earthed to
the same single point earth ground. That means even the CATV
wire drops down to earth ground, connects ground block 'less
than 3 meters' to that earth ground, and only then rises back
up to enter building. Again, no surge protector required
because earthing is accomplished by a direct and short
hardwire connection.
=20
These concepts are explained further including some examples
of 'whole house' protectors for AC mains at:
"RJ-11 line protection?" on 30 Dec 2003 through 12 Jan 2004 in
pdx.computing at
http://tinyurl.com/2hl53 and
"strange problem after power surge/thunderstorm" in
comp.dcom.modems on 31 Mar 2003 at=20
http://tinyurl.com/2gumt .
=20
Additional information on how surge protectors work, how
they are rated, installed, etc was posted in:
"Opinions on Surge Protectors?" on 7 Jul 2003 in the
newsgroup alt.certification.a-plus at=20
http://tinyurl.com/l3m9 and
"Power Surge" on 29 Sept 2003 in the newsgroup
alt.comp.hardware at
http://tinyurl.com/p1rk
=20
One industry professional demonstrates how two structures
are protected. Notice every wire entering each structure
(building and tower) must first connect to single point
ground. Even the buried phone wire carries a potentially
destructive transient which is why even buried wires must
enter building at the service entrance with the 'less than 3
meter' connection to earth ground:
=20
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
=20
How do we identify ineffective protectors? 1) No dedicated
connection to earth ground AND 2) manufacturer avoids all
discussion about earthing. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground - the protection.
=20
Those ineffective protector manufacturers fear you might
learn about the essential earth ground AND discover that
plug-in protectors cost tens of times more money per protected
appliance.
=20
=20


  #17  
Old July 9th 04, 08:28 AM
Bagpuss
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On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 21:44:41 GMT, "JULIAN HALES"
wrote:

--

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Please post in the group to reply.


I had a house electrical check a few weeks back from the local council, 2
guys, well one guy and his chimp, while doing it i said i do not want any
testing or surges as i run a large lan, although pre powerd down, they said
it was a good job i told them as at the end its normal to do something and
shove a surge? of some kind around the system.


yep they usualty shove 20,000 volts around IIRC as a surge test. They
do it once in a while at work and we have to unplug all the kit from
the mains.

They said, and i knew before hand even tho switched off at the wall but
still plugged in it could have blown the lot, how true this is i dont know


Potentially yes, espesh if one of the sockets was suspect.

Never had a surge pretector in years, always thought about it but never got
round to it, ok the LAN i have is cheap old junk, but the data should i lose
it would be a proble


  #18  
Old July 9th 04, 09:10 AM
Parish
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Default

Cuzman wrote:

"Lem" wrote in message
...

" Am I being too complacent? "


Think of this when you next take a ****.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/3457965.stm



LOL!

Electrical fault my arse; eight pints of Stella and a Ruby more like :-)

Parish
  #19  
Old July 9th 04, 09:48 AM
Mike Tomlinson
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In article , Lem writes


See this posting to a second thread started with the same posting
as this one.


It was posted by an idiot with a bee in his bonnet about "whole house
surge protection", a superficial understanding of his subject, who only
ever posts to threads like this one, and who goes remarkably quiet when
challenged to substantiate his claims or to provide technical detail. A
google.groups search for w_tom in various uk.* groups will provide much
entertainment.

Said idiot is American and refuses to acknowledge that UK/European
wiring, because of its superior earthing system, is not as prone to
surges as American installations. In short, ignore.

--
A. Top posters.
Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

  #20  
Old July 9th 04, 12:07 PM
Parish
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Default

Conor wrote:

In article , David Maynard says...
half_pint wrote:

How about using a plug with the correct sized fuse in it?


The proper fuse is always a good idea but fuses do not protect from power
line faults. They blow after your 'protected' device is fried and pulling
too much current as a result of it.

Or don't blow at all. Sister in Law is running a washing machine and
tumble drier off an extension. THe tumble drier developed a fault this
week. THe extension cable got red hot - too hot to touch. To get that
hot it had to have exceeded the plug fuse rating. Neither the fuse in
the extension chord or the fuse in the tumble drier mains plug blew.


The "fuse" isn't an M5x25 bolt is it? ;-)

Parish
 




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