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#21
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
On 12/15/2016 2:34 AM, dg1261 wrote:
Boris wrote in 09.88: I decided to reinstall the OS again. I formatted the hard drive and did a clean install. Same problem. [...] I was able to install SP3 from a CD I had. It installed successfully. I then began to get automatic updates show up in the system tray. I did an Express Install, but it shut down. I tried a Custome install, but it shut down. [...] This is not a normal shut down. The machine doesn't give me a BSOD or lock up when it shuts down, What happens is that the monitor goes black, which indicates no incoming signal from pc, and the keyboard lights go off. Both the processor and power supply stay on, and the green light on the motherboard stays on. The network light (amber) stays on. [...] This one's really got me. Boris, All the additional information you've provided sounds vaguely reminiscent of the symptoms customers were experiencing during an industry-wide scandal a decade ago over bad capacitors. That scandal hit all the major brands--Apple, Lenovo, HP, and especially Dell--mostly their Optiplex models. (Do a google search if you want to learn more.) Now that I think about it, the E510 was first released during the same era. In fact, it occurred to me my wife is still using a E510. Her computer is still running fine, so I hadn't put two and two together and didn't consider whether the E510 might be susceptible to the bad cap problem, but I suppose some E510's could be. That's when I decided to go take a peek inside her E510. Guess what? She's got two bad capacitors!! https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...TJOQU4ySUFXdzA The first four photos show the two bad caps, as indicated by their bulging tops. Note all the good caps have tops that are flat. The two bad caps are even starting to leak a bit of yellowish electrolyte. As I said, her computer has been working fine. But I now realize it's just a matter of time before she starts getting the symptoms you're experiencing. I'll have to put it on my to-do list to pick up a pair of 820uf electrolytics and replace them on her motherboard before they fail completely. I don't know if you're having the same problem (perhaps with different caps), but this has taught me the E510 is indeed susceptible, so it's probably something you may want to consider. Good catch. I'm using a Viewsonic monitor I got for free on CL that had several bad caps, it's worked perfectly ever since. I would recommend replacing the caps asap, as other components may be damaged if they fail badly enough. |
#22
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
In message 8, Boris
writes: [] I wonder if the power supply is flakey, but I doubt it because the machine will stay on overnight if I don't do something to cause a shut down. That was my thought too, and still seems possible. The bad caps one also sounds like worth checking. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE MACHINE "SHUTS DOWN" This is not a normal shut down. The machine doesn't give me a BSOD or lock up when it shuts down, What happens is that the monitor goes black, which indicates no incoming signal from pc, and the keyboard lights go off. Both the processor and power supply stay on, and the green light on the motherboard stays on. The network light (amber) stays on. Again, all of this indicates no signal to peripherals, even though everything indicates the machine is on. If this was just a video problem, I'd expect the keyboard lights to stay on. Hmmm...if there's a CD in the CD ROM, I can't open the CD ROM. _Sounds_ like it's going into one of the sleep modes. Something that'd be interesting to know is what happens to any sound that's playing: get hold of some long .mp3 or .wav file, and set it playing soon after the machine starts, while you do other things. I'm not sure what it would tell us, but it'd be interesting to know if it continues or stops when the shutdown happens. If it does carry on, then try a shorter file but set to repeat (older versions of WinAmp have a repeat function; I don't know if modern ones, or even just Windows Media Player, do), and see if it repeats when it gets to the end. The hard drive indicator light stays solid green, and doesn't blink with activity. By the way, it never shows activity, even when I can hear activity during file copying. I've seen systems that have that symptom. On those, the lights on the individual drives did show activity as normal. (I'm not sure if modern drives _have_ such an LED on them - certainly you'd have to operate the system with the cover off to see them, if they do.) The green light on the motherboard stays green. The power supply fan spins, and I can feel the hard drive is on, but hear no head movement. During POST, the front panel diagnostic lights blink out the numbers, but don't stay light once POST is done. There are no suspicious logs in the event log. Have you tried any other OSs - a DOS boot floppy, for example, or maybe one of those Linuxes you can run from the CD? [] I was just letting the machine auto download more auto updates, and it shut down. I didn't touch it. I was also just able to install Belarc Advisor from a USB drive, and it did it's analysis, but when I went to maximize the results window, it shut down. I just rebooted, clicked off the Belarc analysis again, and when it was presented on screen, I was able this time to maximize. (You can always transfer the Belarc result file to another machine to look at it; it's mainly just a plain HTML file.) Has the machine ever entered this shutdown condition when you're not doing anything? (I. e. not downloading updates, or anything.) Though with modern OSs it's rarely not doing _anything_. I suspect thewrong chipset/video driver. I've tried the one that came with the Dell CD, and two different ones that show up for my service tag, each time on a clean OS install. I _thought_ at least one of the safe modes (and you say the problem is still there in all of them) used a basic default driver. This one's really got me. . It does sound like a doozy! I think the power supply or duff caps seem the most likely; if you've got another power supply you can try, that's an easy check. (Guys, were the duff caps surface mount or through-hole? Or both?) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations... |
#23
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
How old is this machine? Is the PSU properly sized (so it has reserve
capacity above what load is placed upon it)? Is is a good supply or a cheapie? PSUs (good ones) lose about 5% capacity per year. The cheapies are even worse plus they mislead regarding what they can sustain (they give peak load capacity instead of sustained load capacity). The PSU is the lifeblood of the computer. Too little voltage (or too much ripple) or insufficient capacity to handle the load (amperage) means flaky operation. |
#24
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
dg1261 wrote in
. 209.88: Boris wrote in 09.88: I decided to reinstall the OS again. I formatted the hard drive and did a clean install. Same problem. [...] I was able to install SP3 from a CD I had. It installed successfully. I then began to get automatic updates show up in the system tray. I did an Express Install, but it shut down. I tried a Custome install, but it shut down. [...] This is not a normal shut down. The machine doesn't give me a BSOD or lock up when it shuts down, What happens is that the monitor goes black, which indicates no incoming signal from pc, and the keyboard lights go off. Both the processor and power supply stay on, and the green light on the motherboard stays on. The network light (amber) stays on. [...] This one's really got me. Boris, All the additional information you've provided sounds vaguely reminiscent of the symptoms customers were experiencing during an industry-wide scandal a decade ago over bad capacitors. That scandal hit all the major brands--Apple, Lenovo, HP, and especially Dell--mostly their Optiplex models. (Do a google search if you want to learn more.) Now that I think about it, the E510 was first released during the same era. In fact, it occurred to me my wife is still using a E510. Her computer is still running fine, so I hadn't put two and two together and didn't consider whether the E510 might be susceptible to the bad cap problem, but I suppose some E510's could be. That's when I decided to go take a peek inside her E510. Guess what? She's got two bad capacitors!! https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...TJOQU4ySUFXdzA The first four photos show the two bad caps, as indicated by their bulging tops. Note all the good caps have tops that are flat. The two bad caps are even starting to leak a bit of yellowish electrolyte. As I said, her computer has been working fine. But I now realize it's just a matter of time before she starts getting the symptoms you're experiencing. I'll have to put it on my to-do list to pick up a pair of 820uf electrolytics and replace them on her motherboard before they fail completely. I don't know if you're having the same problem (perhaps with different caps), but this has taught me the E510 is indeed susceptible, so it's probably something you may want to consider. BINGO!!! I have 6 bulging, and some starting to leak, capacitors. Here's pictures of 5 of them: https://postimg.org/gallery/2kvyq5leo/ Yes, I do remember reading about the capacitor scandal many years ago. And I remember being a little reluctant to purchase any desktop at that time, but I did. I bought the E510 in March 2006. I hadn't thought about this issue until you brought it up. Even when I thoroughly cleaned out the interior of the machine, I didn't notice the bad caps. The closeups clearly show the bulging and leaking, but because I wasn't looking for this issue, and I didn't look closely, and therefore I didn't 'see' it. My fault. I also just resurected an E520 (bought June 2007) last week that belonged to my dad. I had no problems with it, but I just went and looked at all of the caps, and all is well. Funny thing, I originally bought this E510 for my wife, but when she went to a laptop, it got passed around the family. I've spent lots of time the last week or so on desktops/laptops (I thought it would be a day), and I've got to get back to other things, since the holidays are coming fast. I'm going to put repairing this machine on the list of things to do, and will try to get to it after the new year. I've never done solder work on a motherboard, but I'm will to try. I've got nothing to lose. Thanks much for the tip. |
#25
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message 8, Boris writes: [] I wonder if the power supply is flakey, but I doubt it because the machine will stay on overnight if I don't do something to cause a shut down. That was my thought too, and still seems possible. The bad caps one also sounds like worth checking. What could be happening, is bad caps on VCore (that's the cluster of caps around the CPU socket area), the Vcore regulator produces a signal that contributes to the Power_Good logic tree. When VCore shuts down, Power_Good is no longer asserted (because one critical supply, VCore, is not working), so the RESET signal is asserted. Maybe that's why the video card output goes black. It's not being instructed to go black by some CPU code. It's going black because RESET is asserted. The keyboard is the part that has me puzzled. The PS/2 connector doesn't have reset, the LEDs are likely switched on and off with serial patterns. Does a SuperI/O send initialization sequences to anything while RESET is asserted ? Dunno. So the hard part for me, is linking all the symptoms Boris noticed. I think the bad cap theory is a good possibility. And a visual check of the motherboard is pretty easy to do. That's the best part. As for the caps, all the electrolytics I've seen in pictures that are leaking, are thru-hole components. The typical industry practice is to have an interference fit. That makes it almost impossible to re-cap later. Even with a vacuum desoldering station, the legs won't move. And you have to be careful to not pull on them too hard, or you'll pull the solder fillet right out of the board. (Picture of leaking caps for inspiration...) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...i-07-02-17.jpg Paul |
#26
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
Boris wrote:
BINGO!!! I have 6 bulging, and some starting to leak, capacitors. Here's pictures of 5 of them: https://postimg.org/gallery/2kvyq5leo/ Yes, I do remember reading about the capacitor scandal many years ago. And I remember being a little reluctant to purchase any desktop at that time, but I did. I bought the E510 in March 2006. I hadn't thought about this issue until you brought it up. Even when I thoroughly cleaned out the interior of the machine, I didn't notice the bad caps. The closeups clearly show the bulging and leaking, but because I wasn't looking for this issue, and I didn't look closely, and therefore I didn't 'see' it. My fault. I also just resurected an E520 (bought June 2007) last week that belonged to my dad. I had no problems with it, but I just went and looked at all of the caps, and all is well. Funny thing, I originally bought this E510 for my wife, but when she went to a laptop, it got passed around the family. I've spent lots of time the last week or so on desktops/laptops (I thought it would be a day), and I've got to get back to other things, since the holidays are coming fast. I'm going to put repairing this machine on the list of things to do, and will try to get to it after the new year. I've never done solder work on a motherboard, but I'm will to try. I've got nothing to lose. Thanks much for the tip. Even if you're good with a soldering iron, you will still have trouble replacing those. The holes for the capacitor legs are only 5 thou larger than the legs themselves. And if you pull too hard on the capacitor leads, you can pull the solder fillet right out of the motherboard. I worked on some at work, with a vacuum desoldering station, and after two hours of work, I was still not making any progress. The ease of removing them, is a direct function of how much bigger the holes are, than the legs of the capacitor. If the holes are "sloppy", the caps come out easily. I've worked on stuff like that too. Paul |
#27
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
Boris wrote in
09.88: I have 6 bulging, and some starting to leak, capacitors. [...] Thanks much for the tip. You're welcome. And I learned I've got a problem to take care of, too. |
#28
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
Boris wrote: BINGO!!! I have 6 bulging, and some starting to leak, capacitors. Here's pictures of 5 of them: https://postimg.org/gallery/2kvyq5leo/ Yes, I do remember reading about the capacitor scandal many years ago. And I remember being a little reluctant to purchase any desktop at that time, but I did. I bought the E510 in March 2006. I hadn't thought about this issue until you brought it up. Even when I thoroughly cleaned out the interior of the machine, I didn't notice the bad caps. The closeups clearly show the bulging and leaking, but because I wasn't looking for this issue, and I didn't look closely, and therefore I didn't 'see' it. My fault. I also just resurected an E520 (bought June 2007) last week that belonged to my dad. I had no problems with it, but I just went and looked at all of the caps, and all is well. Funny thing, I originally bought this E510 for my wife, but when she went to a laptop, it got passed around the family. I've spent lots of time the last week or so on desktops/laptops (I thought it would be a day), and I've got to get back to other things, since the holidays are coming fast. I'm going to put repairing this machine on the list of things to do, and will try to get to it after the new year. I've never done solder work on a motherboard, but I'm will to try. I've got nothing to lose. Thanks much for the tip. Even if you're good with a soldering iron, you will still have trouble replacing those. The holes for the capacitor legs are only 5 thou larger than the legs themselves. And if you pull too hard on the capacitor leads, you can pull the solder fillet right out of the motherboard. I worked on some at work, with a vacuum desoldering station, and after two hours of work, I was still not making any progress. The ease of removing them, is a direct function of how much bigger the holes are, than the legs of the capacitor. If the holes are "sloppy", the caps come out easily. I've worked on stuff like that too. Paul My experience has been to scrap any motherboards with bad caps. Even if I could replace them, there is no telling whether the caps failure has not weakened some other part of the motherboard. Just not worth it. At this point, E510 systems are a dime a dozen, those that do not have bad caps. If one is in love with the E510 or has important personal data on a hard drive all set up for an E510, get another one. Otherwise, move on to something more modern. The E510 dates from 2006 or 2007, and with its history of bad caps (not just this one), it's better to avoid the model. |
#29
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
Ben Myers wrote in
: On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Boris wrote: BINGO!!! I have 6 bulging, and some starting to leak, capacitors. Here's pictures of 5 of them: https://postimg.org/gallery/2kvyq5leo/ Yes, I do remember reading about the capacitor scandal many years ago. And I remember being a little reluctant to purchase any desktop at that time, but I did. I bought the E510 in March 2006. I hadn't thought about this issue until you brought it up. Even when I thoroughly cleaned out the interior of the machine, I didn't notice the bad caps. The closeups clearly show the bulging and leaking, but because I wasn't looking for this issue, and I didn't look closely, and therefore I didn't 'see' it. My fault. I also just resurected an E520 (bought June 2007) last week that belonged to my dad. I had no problems with it, but I just went and looked at all of the caps, and all is well. Funny thing, I originally bought this E510 for my wife, but when she went to a laptop, it got passed around the family. I've spent lots of time the last week or so on desktops/laptops (I thought it would be a day), and I've got to get back to other things, since the holidays are coming fast. I'm going to put repairing this machine on the list of things to do, and will try to get to it after th e new year. I've never done solder work on a motherboard, but I'm will t o try. I've got nothing to lose. Thanks much for the tip. Even if you're good with a soldering iron, you will still have trouble replacing those. The holes for the capacitor legs are only 5 thou larger than the legs themselves. And if you pull too hard on the capacitor leads, you can pull the solder fillet right out of the motherboard. I worked on some at work, with a vacuum desoldering station, and after two hours of work, I was still not making any progress. The ease of removing them, is a direct function of how much bigger the holes are, than the legs of the capacitor. If the holes are "sloppy", the caps come out easily. I've worked on stuff like that too. Paul My experience has been to scrap any motherboards with bad caps. Even if I could replace them, there is no telling whether the caps failure has not weakened some other part of the motherboard. Just not worth it. At this point, E510 systems are a dime a dozen, those that do not have bad caps. If one is in love with the E510 or has important personal data on a hard drive all set up for an E510, get another one. Otherwise, move on to something more modern. The E510 dates from 2006 or 2007, and with its history of bad caps (not just this one), it's better to avoid the model. Agreed. Besides, of my top worst skills, soldering is #1. The only thing I hate more is laying cement. |
#30
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E510 Goes Black When Desktop Comes Up
On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 6:36:15 PM UTC-5, Boris wrote:
Ben Myers wrote in : On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 7:21:39 PM UTC-5, Paul wrote: Boris wrote: BINGO!!! I have 6 bulging, and some starting to leak, capacitors. Here's pictures of 5 of them: https://postimg.org/gallery/2kvyq5leo/ Yes, I do remember reading about the capacitor scandal many years ago. And I remember being a little reluctant to purchase any desktop at that time, but I did. I bought the E510 in March 2006. I hadn't thought about this issue until you brought it up. Even when I thoroughly cleaned out the interior of the machine, I didn't notice the bad caps. The closeups clearly show the bulging and leaking, but because I wasn't looking for this issue, and I didn't look closely, and therefore I didn't 'see' it. My fault. I also just resurected an E520 (bought June 2007) last week that belonged to my dad. I had no problems with it, but I just went and looked at all of the caps, and all is well. Funny thing, I originally bought this E510 for my wife, but when she went to a laptop, it got passed around the family. I've spent lots of time the last week or so on desktops/laptops (I thought it would be a day), and I've got to get back to other things, since the holidays are coming fast. I'm going to put repairing this machine on the list of things to do, and will try to get to it after th e new year. I've never done solder work on a motherboard, but I'm will t o try. I've got nothing to lose. Thanks much for the tip. Even if you're good with a soldering iron, you will still have trouble replacing those. The holes for the capacitor legs are only 5 thou larger than the legs themselves. And if you pull too hard on the capacitor leads, you can pull the solder fillet right out of the motherboard. I worked on some at work, with a vacuum desoldering station, and after two hours of work, I was still not making any progress. The ease of removing them, is a direct function of how much bigger the holes are, than the legs of the capacitor. If the holes are "sloppy", the caps come out easily. I've worked on stuff like that too. Paul My experience has been to scrap any motherboards with bad caps. Even if I could replace them, there is no telling whether the caps failure has not weakened some other part of the motherboard. Just not worth it. At this point, E510 systems are a dime a dozen, those that do not have bad caps. If one is in love with the E510 or has important personal data on a hard drive all set up for an E510, get another one. Otherwise, move on to something more modern. The E510 dates from 2006 or 2007, and with its history of bad caps (not just this one), it's better to avoid the model. Agreed. Besides, of my top worst skills, soldering is #1. The only thing I hate more is laying cement. Good idea. Give the E510 some cement shoes, like the old gangs did. |
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