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#11
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P2B wrote:
Actually, I've recently noticed exactly the same behaviour here. memtest test #6 always reboots at 2% (and sometimes it won't even reboot, but some very odd shutdown happens - fans etc. will spin down, power led will go off, but hd led stays lit(!)). I can run all other tests all day long, as well as things like cpuburn. What's very weird about that memtest #6 failure is also that it doesn't matter at all what memory area is tested and how large the memory area is - it will always crash at 2%, no matter what. I wanted to try some things (like soldering additional caps to vtt) since I suspect the slotket I have (soltek sl-02a++, modded to work with tualatin) might not do a good job (it's just a wild guess though), but didn't have time yet. What slotket do you have? Roland Are the symptoms consistent with the HIP6019 latching a fault ? http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4587.pdf Paul No. The board won't power up if the HIP6019 latches a fault - usually the CPU fan will 'twitch' at power up, but the board shuts down again immediately. Hmm. Are you sure this always happens? Looking at the datasheet, it could explain the behaviour I see (the strange shutdowns, and also (I forgot to mention that before) when it reboots, I can hear the fans (I assume cpu fan, but I haven't listened that closely) spinning slower for a very short period of time (which doesn't happen with a normal reset). I don't feel good about measuring voltages on boards when it's running though (even more so if the measurement points are tiny pins), I guess it's even impossible in that cramped case. I think I'll try modifying the slocket first. Roland |
#12
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In article , P2B
wrote: Paul wrote: In article , Roland Scheidegger wrote: snip Actually, I've recently noticed exactly the same behaviour here. memtest test #6 always reboots at 2% (and sometimes it won't even reboot, but some very odd shutdown happens - fans etc. will spin down, power led will go off, but hd led stays lit(!)). I can run all other tests all day long, as well as things like cpuburn. What's very weird about that memtest #6 failure is also that it doesn't matter at all what memory area is tested and how large the memory area is - it will always crash at 2%, no matter what. I wanted to try some things (like soldering additional caps to vtt) since I suspect the slotket I have (soltek sl-02a++, modded to work with tualatin) might not do a good job (it's just a wild guess though), but didn't have time yet. What slotket do you have? Roland Are the symptoms consistent with the HIP6019 latching a fault ? http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4587.pdf Paul No. The board won't power up if the HIP6019 latches a fault - usually the CPU fan will 'twitch' at power up, but the board shuts down again immediately. P2B I'm referring to the behavior if the 6019 detects a fault _after_ a successful boot. While some voltage regulators automatically recover from a fault, the datasheet for the 6019 looks like you might need to reset it to restore operation. (Other switchers run in hiccup mode until the fault is removed.) Paul |
#13
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:09:05 +0200, Roland Scheidegger wrote:
Ixnei wrote: Curious, Fishface's had a similar response about a mod to Vtt using caps, to fix an apparent photoshop bug. Do you get that photoshop bug? http://members.ams.chello.nl/mgherar...photoshop.html Unfortunately I don't have photoshop, so I couldn't test this. I'm using some generic 370SPC slocket, and I will be looking at getting some tantalum caps soon (if I don't have any appropriate ones already). Just as a side note, using generic slockets with coppermines (and even more so modded with tualatins) seems often to be problematic. I'd have just tried a slot-t, but it's not available in switzerland, and I'm not willing to pay more than the adapter costs in shipping costs (and the soltek slotket isn't quite generic, it is listed by intel as meeting coppermine requirements). If your 370SPC is revision 1.0 from Fastfame then it's explicitly listed by intel as not coppermine compliant. Yeah, well they work in the other boards I've tested. In fact, this type of slotket with both a 733 and a 766 celeron worked fine in a P2L97, and passed memtest. The P2B just doesn't seem to have enough noise immunity. It did pass memtest with the P2-350, but I didn't bother doing further testing with faster processors as I already ran into a fairly substantial roadblock with that board. I've tried google searches on this - found some people with the same problem, others with some explanations of the phenomena, but never found a follow up with a solution... Maybe the monitoring chip is defective? I don't know if that is probable, but if this is indeed the case you might need to replace it (I'm not sure if there are other differences between boards with/without monitoring, but it might work if the chip is removed without replacing it). Yeah that might be a possibility. I know on the other board the CPU temp shows up as a non-selectable N/A (not 130C [Err]), so perhaps this route might work. I'd rather just disable the throttling somehow in the bios... Roland -- We HAVE been at war with Iraq for 13 years now, bombing their country on at least a weekly basis. "U.S.-led sanctions have killed over a million Iraqi citizens, according to UN studies" - James Jennings 3,000+ innocent Iraqi civilian casualties can't be "wrong"... |
#14
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Roland Scheidegger wrote:
Ixnei wrote: Curious, Fishface's had a similar response about a mod to Vtt using caps, to fix an apparent photoshop bug. Do you get that photoshop bug? http://members.ams.chello.nl/mgherar...photoshop.html Unfortunately I don't have photoshop, so I couldn't test this. I'm using some generic 370SPC slocket, and I will be looking at getting some tantalum caps soon (if I don't have any appropriate ones already). Just as a side note, using generic slockets with coppermines (and even more so modded with tualatins) seems often to be problematic. I'd have just tried a slot-t, but it's not available in switzerland, and I'm not willing to pay more than the adapter costs in shipping costs (and the soltek slotket isn't quite generic, it is listed by intel as meeting coppermine requirements). If your 370SPC is revision 1.0 from Fastfame then it's explicitly listed by intel as not coppermine compliant. Yes, it's on the "DO NOT Meet Minimum Requirements" list but I'm not quite sure what to make of that list as they also have the Super Slocket III, which is about the only slotket still available, on it but they do work. At least the two I have did. snip |
#15
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Roland Scheidegger wrote: P2B wrote: Actually, I've recently noticed exactly the same behaviour here. memtest test #6 always reboots at 2% (and sometimes it won't even reboot, but some very odd shutdown happens - fans etc. will spin down, power led will go off, but hd led stays lit(!)). I can run all other tests all day long, as well as things like cpuburn. What's very weird about that memtest #6 failure is also that it doesn't matter at all what memory area is tested and how large the memory area is - it will always crash at 2%, no matter what. I wanted to try some things (like soldering additional caps to vtt) since I suspect the slotket I have (soltek sl-02a++, modded to work with tualatin) might not do a good job (it's just a wild guess though), but didn't have time yet. What slotket do you have? Roland Are the symptoms consistent with the HIP6019 latching a fault ? http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4587.pdf Paul No. The board won't power up if the HIP6019 latches a fault - usually the CPU fan will 'twitch' at power up, but the board shuts down again immediately. Hmm. Are you sure this always happens? Looking at the datasheet, it could explain the behaviour I see (the strange shutdowns, and also (I forgot to mention that before) when it reboots, I can hear the fans (I assume cpu fan, but I haven't listened that closely) spinning slower for a very short period of time (which doesn't happen with a normal reset). I find this whole thread rather odd, as it's replete with reports of P2B behaviors which don't match my experience with the boards at all! I've decided to consolidate my thoughts and observations here rather than in a series of replies to other posts in the thread. With regard to VRM fault, I had assumed the HIP6019 fault signal was involved in shutting down the board if there's a problem in the VRM circuitry, but that turns out not to be the case. I just checked through my inventory of parts boards and found several flavours of P2B with the 6019 removed. There is no connection to pin 13 (FAULT/RT) on any of them. To me this implies the hardware monitoring chip (W83781D) is somehow involved, which is consistent with my experience. I once burned out a fan tachometer input on one of my boards and decided to replace the monitor chip. The board would not power on without the monitor chip - I tried it for interest's sake and the symptoms were identical to a failed 6019, i.e. CPU fan twitches but board does not power up. This still doesn't tell us what happens if the chip shuts down during operation, however. As an aside, failure of the W83781D chip can be very frustrating if you are trying to repair a dead board. To date I have been unable to find a way to diagnose W83781D vs. 440BX Northbridge failure. I have fixed two P2B-DS boards by replacing the W83781D 'on spec', but three others were still dead afterward. Your report of fans spinning slower on reboot after a 'strange shutdown' does not seem plausible as there is nothing but a power transistor between +12v from the power supply and the onboard fan headers. I assume the power transistor is there to be sacrificed if a fan header supply pin is shorted to ground, otherwise traces on the board might melt. I've fixed a couple of boards with dead fan headers by replacing this transistor, and in both cases it failed after a chassis fan seized. I suppose it would be possible to slow the fans by pulsing the 'on' signal to the power transistor, but this seems unlikely to me. The OP's report of 'CPU throttling' also appears implausible since the BIOS does not appear to have such functionality. This is expected since CPUs available when the board was designed did not support throttling, nor does the BIOS contain the I2C code required to instruct the clock chip to change FSB on the fly. Note that the OP's temperature readings are easily simulated - 130 degrees is the maximum the monitoring chip can report, and is obtained by connecting the sensor input pins together. I tried that on several flavours of P2B here, and in all cases the BIOS reports a hardware error, but boots normally if you hit F2 - with fans and FSB both running at their usual speeds. Given the above, my best guess is the symptoms observed by the OP on the board with the funky hardware monitor are entirely due to the monitoring chip failing in an unusual fashion, resulting in the BIOS becoming thoroughly confused when it reads (or tries to read) the monitor chip's registers. And finally, back to the original issue of memtest86 crashing shortly after starting test 6. I've never seen this under any circumstances. Are we talking about the original memtest86 v3.0 (which I've used on P2B boards for years), or memtest86 3.1a, or memtest86+ 1.x ?? I've never used any of the recently released versions. I don't feel good about measuring voltages on boards when it's running though (even more so if the measurement points are tiny pins), I guess it's even impossible in that cramped case. I think I'll try modifying the slocket first. I understand your trepidation, but IME errant probing of a running board rarely causes problems a reboot doesn't cure. Tip: The contacts in a female Molex connector fit nicely on most meter probes. To make fine probes for your meter, just remove a couple from a spare Molex, solder jumper pins from a dead board onto them, and slide onto the existing probes. Now you can measure individual chip pins on the board with greatly reduced risk of shorting to an adjacent pin. P2B |
#16
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Paul wrote: In article , P2B wrote: Paul wrote: In article , Roland Scheidegger wrote: snip Actually, I've recently noticed exactly the same behaviour here. memtest test #6 always reboots at 2% (and sometimes it won't even reboot, but some very odd shutdown happens - fans etc. will spin down, power led will go off, but hd led stays lit(!)). I can run all other tests all day long, as well as things like cpuburn. What's very weird about that memtest #6 failure is also that it doesn't matter at all what memory area is tested and how large the memory area is - it will always crash at 2%, no matter what. I wanted to try some things (like soldering additional caps to vtt) since I suspect the slotket I have (soltek sl-02a++, modded to work with tualatin) might not do a good job (it's just a wild guess though), but didn't have time yet. What slotket do you have? Roland Are the symptoms consistent with the HIP6019 latching a fault ? http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4587.pdf Paul No. The board won't power up if the HIP6019 latches a fault - usually the CPU fan will 'twitch' at power up, but the board shuts down again immediately. P2B I'm referring to the behavior if the 6019 detects a fault _after_ a successful boot. While some voltage regulators automatically recover from a fault, the datasheet for the 6019 looks like you might need to reset it to restore operation. (Other switchers run in hiccup mode until the fault is removed.) Paul It turns out nothing happens as a direct result of the 6019 detecting a fault at _any_ time as there is no connection to the fault pin - see my other post in this thread. |
#17
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P2B wrote:
Roland Scheidegger wrote: P2B wrote: Actually, I've recently noticed exactly the same behaviour here. memtest test #6 always reboots at 2% (and sometimes it won't even reboot, but some very odd shutdown happens - fans etc. will spin down, power led will go off, but hd led stays lit(!)). I can run all other tests all day long, as well as things like cpuburn. What's very weird about that memtest #6 failure is also that it doesn't matter at all what memory area is tested and how large the memory area is - it will always crash at 2%, no matter what. I wanted to try some things (like soldering additional caps to vtt) since I suspect the slotket I have (soltek sl-02a++, modded to work with tualatin) might not do a good job (it's just a wild guess though), but didn't have time yet. What slotket do you have? Roland Are the symptoms consistent with the HIP6019 latching a fault ? http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4587.pdf Paul No. The board won't power up if the HIP6019 latches a fault - usually the CPU fan will 'twitch' at power up, but the board shuts down again immediately. Hmm. Are you sure this always happens? Looking at the datasheet, it could explain the behaviour I see (the strange shutdowns, and also (I forgot to mention that before) when it reboots, I can hear the fans (I assume cpu fan, but I haven't listened that closely) spinning slower for a very short period of time (which doesn't happen with a normal reset). I find this whole thread rather odd, as it's replete with reports of P2B behaviors which don't match my experience with the boards at all! I've decided to consolidate my thoughts and observations here rather than in a series of replies to other posts in the thread. With regard to VRM fault, I had assumed the HIP6019 fault signal was involved in shutting down the board if there's a problem in the VRM circuitry, but that turns out not to be the case. I just checked through my inventory of parts boards and found several flavours of P2B with the 6019 removed. There is no connection to pin 13 (FAULT/RT) on any of them. To me this implies the hardware monitoring chip (W83781D) is somehow involved, which is consistent with my experience. I once burned out a fan tachometer input on one of my boards and decided to replace the monitor chip. The board would not power on without the monitor chip - I tried it for interest's sake and the symptoms were identical to a failed 6019, i.e. CPU fan twitches but board does not power up. This still doesn't tell us what happens if the chip shuts down during operation, however. As an aside, failure of the W83781D chip can be very frustrating if you are trying to repair a dead board. To date I have been unable to find a way to diagnose W83781D vs. 440BX Northbridge failure. I have fixed two P2B-DS boards by replacing the W83781D 'on spec', but three others were still dead afterward. Your report of fans spinning slower on reboot after a 'strange shutdown' does not seem plausible as there is nothing but a power transistor between +12v from the power supply and the onboard fan headers. I assume the power transistor is there to be sacrificed if a fan header supply pin is shorted to ground, otherwise traces on the board might melt. I've fixed a couple of boards with dead fan headers by replacing this transistor, and in both cases it failed after a chassis fan seized. I suppose it would be possible to slow the fans by pulsing the 'on' signal to the power transistor, but this seems unlikely to me. My P2B has practically nothing in the way of monitoring but your supposition about pulsing the 'on' signal to the transistor is precisely how SpeedFan works on my BP6. If the fan can be turned off for, say, suspend then it can be pulsed too. The OP's report of 'CPU throttling' also appears implausible since the BIOS does not appear to have such functionality. This is expected since CPUs available when the board was designed did not support throttling, nor does the BIOS contain the I2C code required to instruct the clock chip to change FSB on the fly. Note that the OP's temperature readings are easily simulated - 130 degrees is the maximum the monitoring chip can report, and is obtained by connecting the sensor input pins together. I tried that on several flavours of P2B here, and in all cases the BIOS reports a hardware error, but boots normally if you hit F2 - with fans and FSB both running at their usual speeds. My P2B (VM) doesn't have any visible CPU throttling function in BIOS either and while your comment about CPUs of the era not 'supporting' it is true that doesn't mean CPU throttling couldn't be, and wasn't, done. My original issue BH6, for example, has BIOS settings for CPU throttling: 75%, 62.5%, 50%, etc. There was no 'CPU support' needed as those older systems throttled by blocking the system clock. It's processor independent. Now, I also note that my P2B runs ACPI and if his thermal sensor is 'broke' at 130 I wonder if windows itself could be throttling, which would depend on the ACPI table (thermal zones). Have you looked to see what the P2B BIOS has in there? I suppose it could also be possible that the BIOS has a non adjustable throttle built in at some fixed temperature value and, as noted above, it wouldn't need to set an FSB freq into the clock gen to do it. Given the above, my best guess is the symptoms observed by the OP on the board with the funky hardware monitor are entirely due to the monitoring chip failing in an unusual fashion, resulting in the BIOS becoming thoroughly confused when it reads (or tries to read) the monitor chip's registers. snip |
#18
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In article , P2B
wrote: Paul wrote: In article , P2B wrote: Paul wrote: In article , Roland Scheidegger wrote: snip Actually, I've recently noticed exactly the same behaviour here. memtest test #6 always reboots at 2% (and sometimes it won't even reboot, but some very odd shutdown happens - fans etc. will spin down, power led will go off, but hd led stays lit(!)). I can run all other tests all day long, as well as things like cpuburn. What's very weird about that memtest #6 failure is also that it doesn't matter at all what memory area is tested and how large the memory area is - it will always crash at 2%, no matter what. I wanted to try some things (like soldering additional caps to vtt) since I suspect the slotket I have (soltek sl-02a++, modded to work with tualatin) might not do a good job (it's just a wild guess though), but didn't have time yet. What slotket do you have? Roland Are the symptoms consistent with the HIP6019 latching a fault ? http://www.intersil.com/data/fn/fn4587.pdf Paul No. The board won't power up if the HIP6019 latches a fault - usually the CPU fan will 'twitch' at power up, but the board shuts down again immediately. P2B I'm referring to the behavior if the 6019 detects a fault _after_ a successful boot. While some voltage regulators automatically recover from a fault, the datasheet for the 6019 looks like you might need to reset it to restore operation. (Other switchers run in hiccup mode until the fault is removed.) Paul It turns out nothing happens as a direct result of the 6019 detecting a fault at _any_ time as there is no connection to the fault pin - see my other post in this thread. But doesn't the 6019 shut down anyway ? My point is, the processor loses power (because the 6019 latched a fault), but the ATX PS is still powered. What the fans do, depends on where the logic signals that control the power transistor on the fan header, come from. This is not a normal way for the board to run - on a multiple supply board, you would want it to shut down, rather than bias being applied to some supplies and not others. On the 6019, the fault signal isn't connected, because the PGOOD signal is used. You probably already have a copy of this reference schematic, and if you search for PWRGOOD and look at some of the logic, the equivalent of PGOOD from a VRM is used as part of the logic for PWROK which is fed to a couple of major chips on the board. ftp://download.intel.com/design/chip...x/BXDPDG10.PDF I notice on that reference schematic, how VTT has a 22uF cap on it for filtering. Maybe that is where the workaround value came from ? Paul |
#19
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 22:48:31 -0400, P2B wrote:
I find this whole thread rather odd, as it's replete with reports of P2B behaviors which don't match my experience with the boards at all! I've decided to consolidate my thoughts and observations here rather than in a series of replies to other posts in the thread. snip The OP's report of 'CPU throttling' also appears implausible since the BIOS does not appear to have such functionality. This is expected since CPUs available when the board was designed did not support throttling, nor does the BIOS contain the I2C code required to instruct the clock chip to change FSB on the fly. Note that the OP's temperature readings are easily simulated - 130 degrees is the maximum the monitoring chip can report, and is obtained by connecting the sensor input pins together. I tried that on several flavours of P2B here, and in all cases the BIOS reports a hardware error, but boots normally if you hit F2 - with fans and FSB both running at their usual speeds. Evidently standby mode is entered 75% of the time in a short timecycle: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=p2...eds.com&rnum=5 I will try playing with disabling "green" power functionality in the BIOS. Given the above, my best guess is the symptoms observed by the OP on the board with the funky hardware monitor are entirely due to the monitoring chip failing in an unusual fashion, resulting in the BIOS becoming thoroughly confused when it reads (or tries to read) the monitor chip's registers. Even when using the "no hardware monitor" BIOS? I think you're correct tho, that it is still reading them and believing there is a heat problem. And finally, back to the original issue of memtest86 crashing shortly after starting test 6. I've never seen this under any circumstances. Are we talking about the original memtest86 v3.0 (which I've used on P2B boards for years), or memtest86 3.1a, or memtest86+ 1.x ?? I've never used any of the recently released versions. I'm using the most recently released version - I have the older 3.0 version which I will shortly test to confirm/deny this!!! -- We HAVE been at war with Iraq for 13 years now, bombing their country on at least a weekly basis. "U.S.-led sanctions have killed over a million Iraqi citizens, according to UN studies" - James Jennings 3,000+ innocent Iraqi civilian casualties can't be "wrong"... |
#20
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P2B wrote:
I find this whole thread rather odd, as it's replete with reports of P2B behaviors which don't match my experience with the boards at all! I've decided to consolidate my thoughts and observations here rather than in a series of replies to other posts in the thread. You probably don't use substandard slockets ;-). And even if you do, if it's indeed caused by improper vtt buffering, then it's exactly the sort of issue you'd expect to only see on some boards, not on all, even if it's the same revision. Your report of fans spinning slower on reboot after a 'strange shutdown' does not seem plausible as there is nothing but a power transistor between +12v from the power supply and the onboard fan headers. I assume the power transistor is there to be sacrificed if a fan header supply pin is shorted to ground, otherwise traces on the board might melt. I've fixed a couple of boards with dead fan headers by replacing this transistor, and in both cases it failed after a chassis fan seized. I suppose it would be possible to slow the fans by pulsing the 'on' signal to the power transistor, but this seems unlikely to me. If the voltage regulator shuts down due to an error, I assume weird things might happen - including a half shutdown immediately followed by a restart (which could explain the fans spinning slower). And finally, back to the original issue of memtest86 crashing shortly after starting test 6. I've never seen this under any circumstances. Are we talking about the original memtest86 v3.0 (which I've used on P2B boards for years), or memtest86 3.1a, or memtest86+ 1.x ?? I've never used any of the recently released versions. I've tried with memtest86 3.0, and memtest86+ 1.11 (I've switched to that so I could compile it myself, since 3.0 needs an ancient gcc 2.95.3). I wasn't aware that there's now a memtest86 3.1 version, the 3.0 version was there for a LONG time. I don't think though testing with 3.1 would change the result... (I also forgot to mention the problem is independant of vcore (tested 1.4/1.5/1.6V) or fsb/cpu clock (tested 133, 100 and 66MHz FSB)). I don't feel good about measuring voltages on boards when it's running though (even more so if the measurement points are tiny pins), I guess it's even impossible in that cramped case. I think I'll try modifying the slocket first. I understand your trepidation, but IME errant probing of a running board rarely causes problems a reboot doesn't cure. Tip: The contacts in a female Molex connector fit nicely on most meter probes. To make fine probes for your meter, just remove a couple from a spare Molex, solder jumper pins from a dead board onto them, and slide onto the existing probes. Now you can measure individual chip pins on the board with greatly reduced risk of shorting to an adjacent pin. I'll try it when soldering vtt caps doesn't help. Roland |
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