UPS battery backup?

I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an
Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place
a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my
PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as
possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks.

Talal Itani

Talal Itani wrote:
I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an
Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place
a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my
PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as
possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks.

Talal Itani



This document discusses the various types. I own the type in Figure 1, which is
an SPS or standby power system. It is not in the power path, as long as AC
power is passing through the device. A relay is used, to flip to battery
backup, and my SPS solves the problem of small power glitches on my AC
power. So while an SPS is the cheapest kind you can find, it is really no
better than a surge protector strip in the amount of protection it can
provide against transients or brownout conditions (and at least I don't
have brownout problems - I'm right next to the substation at the moment,
and get a generous, full 120V, rather than the average 113V the utility
tries to guarantee).

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/S...NM3Y_R5_EN.pdf

This is an example of a Cadillac solution. It is a double conversion unit,
which goes from AC-DC-AC. No transients should be able to leak through
this unit (unless there is a direct lightning strike, and no matter what
technology you use, a lightning strike can still damage things). Note that
it comes with both a USB port and an RS232 port, and via those ports, the
UPS can signal to the computer, for the computer to automatically
shut down. That allows an orderly shutdown, and is a good idea to
protect RAID arrays against file corruption (due to part of the files
still being in cache). An orderly shutdown of Windows, means the caches
are flushed to disk, before shutdown completes.

TRIPP LITE SU1000XLA 1000 VA 800 Watts 8 Outlets Smart Online UPS $400
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842111063

The runtime of the SU1000XLA can be extended by connecting an extra battery.
And higher capacity units are also available. The 1000 seems to be the
smallest in the series.

Example of battery pack to extend runtime (does not increase 800 Watt rating)
The red and black lead, plug to the back of the SU1000XLA.
http://www.provantage.com/tripp-lite...4~7TRPL1JC.htm

There are other, cheaper types of UPSes, with compromises in the level of
protection.

HTH,
Paul

Talal Itani wrote:

I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power
supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power
supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other
technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am
trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible.
I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks.

All the UPS does is allow you time to shut down when the poser
fails. Some will do this automatically. Then you have to worry
about properly configuring restart.

--
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423
http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html

"A man who is right every time is not likely to do very much."
-- Francis Crick, co-discover of DNA
"There is nothing more amazing than stupidity in action."
-- Thomas Matthews



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:47:33 GMT, "Talal Itani"
wrote:


I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an
Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place
a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my
PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as
possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks.

Talal Itani



Get a whole site surge protector and a line conditioner for
the circuit between wall outlet and computer/connected
peripherals.

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:47:33 GMT, "Talal Itani"
wrote:


I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is
an
Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I
place
a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use
my
PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant
as
possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks.

Talal Itani



Get a whole site surge protector and a line conditioner for
the circuit between wall outlet and computer/connected
peripherals.

Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about
three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge
protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line
conditioner?

On Apr 16, 2:20 am, "Talal Itani" wrote:
Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about
three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge
protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line
conditioner?

Power supply does the line conditioning. Conditioning is one of
many functions inside a power supply that may be diminished when a
power supply 'sells on the cheap'. For example this UPS has a clean
AC sine wave when UPS connects computer power supply direct to AC
mains. When in battery backup mode, this UPS output two 200 volt
square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square
waves. Called a 120 volt modified sine wave; it is so 'dirty' as to
damage some small electric motors. This modified sine wave is made
completely irrelevant by 'line conditioning' inside computer power
supplies.

To supplement that line conditioning, try products from Surgex,
Brickwall, or Zerosurge. If you want better line conditioning, then a
better line conditioner costs more.

Same circuit found in power strip protectors is also inside the
UPS. Neither stops, blocks, nor absorbs surges. If located "before
the power supply", then will it stop or absorb what three miles of sky
could not? Of course not. Surge protectors do not stop or block
surges.

Typically destructive type surges seek earth ground. Either surge
finds earth, destructively, through any household appliance, OR is
connected (shunted) to earth ground before surge can enter a building.
Your choice. Do you shunt before a surge can enter the building, or
shunt adjacent to one appliance where surge may find earth ground,
destructively, via computer or anything else nearby. Your choice.

How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated
earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. No
earth ground means no effective protection.

'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by more responsible names
such as GE, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, and
Siemens. Some protectors are available even in Lowes and Home Depot
for less than $50. Just to attempt equivalent protection with plug-in
protectors, spend maybe $2000 or $5000.

Again, a protector shunts (connects, clamps, diverts, bonds) to what
typically destructive surges seek: earth ground. Surge protection is
earthing. A protector is not protection. An effective protector
connects (shunts) a surge to earth in a path that is not destructive.
Telcos, commercial radio and TV stations, military facilities, 911
emergency response centers, etc install 'whole house' (service
entrance) protectors because they want to spend less money for real
protection. That short connection to earth ground defines quality of
protection. Separation between protector and electronics then
increases transistor protection.

Your building earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 National
Electrical Code. 'Whole house' protector then connects 'less than 10
feet' to earthing. Earthing connection must have no splices, no sharp
bends, not inside metallic conduit, separated from other non-earthing
wires, etc. Obviously a plug-in protectors violate all those
earthing requirements. No wonder a plug-in solution hase no dedicated
earthing wire and avoids all earthing discussions.

Defined was a secondary protection 'system'. Each 'system' is
defined by 'the' protection device: earthing electrode. Your primary
protection 'system' should also be inspected:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Battery backup, line conditioning, and surge protection are separate
functions best located at different locations. A good power supply
provides line conditioning. Adjacent battery backup maintains power
for data protection. Protector is best located where a surge can be
earthed short via a non-destructive path; to protect all household
electronics including electronics essential to human safety. Three
different power problems solved in different locations.

On Apr 16, 7:56 am, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:20 am, "Talal Itani" wrote:

Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about
three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge
protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line
conditioner?

Sam's club protector? Depends on ratings. Ratings range from junk to
very high. Also depends on degree of risk. Thunderstorms often, lot of
lightning? There are other surge sources, but lightning is the worst.
Computer connection to phone-wire - is suppressor multiport (see
below).

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).

And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency
formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public
to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background. The
NIST guide is an easy read.


Same circuit found in power strip protectors is also inside the
UPS. Neither stops, blocks, nor absorbs surges. If located "before
the power supply", then will it stop or absorb what three miles of sky
could not? Of course not. Surge protectors do not stop or block
surges.

The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by CLAMPING
the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at
the suppressor. They do not work by stopping, blocking, absorbing.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires needs to go through
the suppressor. External connections, like phone, cable TV, also needs
to go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the
suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and phone wires.
These multiport suppressors are described in both the IEEE and NIST
guides.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

A UPS may or may not have effective surge protection. Or a UPS can be
plugged in to a plug-in suppressor.



How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated
earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. No
earth ground means no effective protection.

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing. Since
plug-in suppressors do not work by earthing he believes they cannot
possibly work. But the IEEE guide explains they primarily work by
CLAMPING, not earthing. The IEEE guide explains earthing occurs
elsewhere in the electrical system.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.


'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by more responsible names
such as GE, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, and
Siemens. Some protectors are available even in Lowes and Home Depot
for less than $50.

About a week ago 2 people looked online and found:
Lowes had NO 'whole house' suppressors.
Home Depot had no 'whole house' suppressors near $50. The 2
suppressors available had no specs available from Home Depot or the
manufacturer.
w_ has provided no link to his $50 Lowes/Depot suppressor.


Again, a protector shunts (connects, clamps, diverts, bonds) to what
typically destructive surges seek: earth ground. Surge protection is
earthing. A protector is not protection. An effective protector
connects (shunts) a surge to earth in a path that is not destructive.

The religious belief in earthing again. The IEEE guide says plug-in
suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Never seen - a link from w_ that say plug-in suppressors are NOT
effective.

--
bud--

"bud--" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Apr 16, 7:56 am, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:20 am, "Talal Itani" wrote:

Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about
three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge
protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line
conditioner?

Sam's club protector? Depends on ratings. Ratings range from junk to
very high. Also depends on degree of risk. Thunderstorms often, lot of
lightning? There are other surge sources, but lightning is the worst.
Computer connection to phone-wire - is suppressor multiport (see
below).

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
- the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from
lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to
AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005
(the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic
engineers in the US).

And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
- this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to
protect the appliances in your home" published by the National
Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency
formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001

Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public
to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was
targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background. The
NIST guide is an easy read.


Same circuit found in power strip protectors is also inside the
UPS. Neither stops, blocks, nor absorbs surges. If located "before
the power supply", then will it stop or absorb what three miles of sky
could not? Of course not. Surge protectors do not stop or block
surges.

The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by CLAMPING
the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at
the suppressor. They do not work by stopping, blocking, absorbing.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the
same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires needs to go through
the suppressor. External connections, like phone, cable TV, also needs
to go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the
suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and phone wires.
These multiport suppressors are described in both the IEEE and NIST
guides.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

A UPS may or may not have effective surge protection. Or a UPS can be
plugged in to a plug-in suppressor.



How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated
earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. No
earth ground means no effective protection.

w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing. Since
plug-in suppressors do not work by earthing he believes they cannot
possibly work. But the IEEE guide explains they primarily work by
CLAMPING, not earthing. The IEEE guide explains earthing occurs
elsewhere in the electrical system.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.


'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by more responsible names
such as GE, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, and
Siemens. Some protectors are available even in Lowes and Home Depot
for less than $50.

About a week ago 2 people looked online and found:
Lowes had NO 'whole house' suppressors.
Home Depot had no 'whole house' suppressors near $50. The 2
suppressors available had no specs available from Home Depot or the
manufacturer.
w_ has provided no link to his $50 Lowes/Depot suppressor.


Again, a protector shunts (connects, clamps, diverts, bonds) to what
typically destructive surges seek: earth ground. Surge protection is
earthing. A protector is not protection. An effective protector
connects (shunts) a surge to earth in a path that is not destructive.

The religious belief in earthing again. The IEEE guide says plug-in
suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.

Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Never seen - a link from w_ that say plug-in suppressors are NOT
effective.

--
bud--


Odd couple of posts there. Both have valid points IMHO.

Lightning and other transient external surges are best clamped
to ground/earth where they enter your system/home/local circuit.
For the power line that is obviously where it enters and is fused.
For a cable line, phone line, satellite coax, antenna line/coax, it
should be accomplished just before entering the home as well,
and there are "blocks" provided for that very purpose.

(If possible you want all of these to connect to the same
grounding point. You can also connect several grounding rods
into a common pattern and make "common ground" connections
through any of them.)

The other point is that the ground provided within a modern
three prong "grounded" receptacle/line is quite sufficient to
handle, even very substantial, surges that originate within a
protected system/home. (If your building conforms to current
building/wiring codes, it will be so protected.) [ This just adds
to the importance of properly grounding any lines you bring
into your home, like a TV antenna/cable coax.]

The Plug-in Surge Protectors and more sophisticated line
conditioning devices normally have all the grounding they
need through a grounded/3 wire power connection. Where
they may need, or even be able to use, a more direct
grounding path, it will be explicitly spelled out. (Such
devices are designed for installation in an engineering closet,
not the desktop.)

So, it is a good idea to check your home's existing grounding,
and a common/"whole house" surge protecting "breaker" may
be worth while. You should also check that any other lines
entering your home are properly grounded as well. But, if
your home meets the common building codes, the plug-in
protection devices are a valid and useful option/ additional
protection.

Luck;
Ken

On Apr 16, 9:00 pm, "Ken Maltby" wrote:
...
So, it is a good idea to check your home's existing grounding,
and a common/"whole house" surge protecting "breaker" may
be worth while. You should also check that any other lines
entering your home are properly grounded as well. But, if
your home meets the common building codes, the plug-in
protection devices are a valid and useful option/ additional
protection.

Wall receptacle ground is not earth ground. Specific references
defined earthing: 'less than 10 foot' connection, no sharp bends, no
splices, not bundled with other wires, etc. All necessary because
surge currents are high frequency. For example, a 50 foot wire from
wall receptacle to breaker box may be less than 0.2 ohms resistance.
That same wire to a trivial 100 amp surge might be 130 ohms
impedance. 130 ohms times 100 amps puts the wall receptacle ground
as something less than 13,000 volts. Will all surge current take the
13,000 volts path to earth ground? Of course not. Wire too long, too
many sharp bends, too many splices, .... Remember all those
requirements? IOW excessive wire impedance. Surge may find other
paths to earth such as destructively through an adjacent TV.

Bud follows me everywhere to promote for the plug-in manufacturers.
He hopes you don't read what his citation Page 42 Figure 8
demonstrates a plug-in protector too far from earth ground and too
close to TVs puts a TV at 8000 volts. Surge currents through an
adjacent protector to earth ground take what path? An 8000 volt path,
destructively, via the TV because a protector (using wall receptacle
safety ground) is too far away from earth ground.

Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates why high reliability facilities don't
use grossly overpriced protectors. They need protection - as has been
well proven for the past 100 years. Not just any connection to
earth. A short connections to protection. As Page 42 Figure 8
demonstrates, a protector is too far from earth ground. Therefore
protector may earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances.

Another of Bud's citations, an IEEE paper, even defined the problem
in it conclusion:
1) ... objectionable difference in reference voltages ... occur
even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are
present at the point of connection of appliances.

Yes, a plug-in protector (costing tens of times more money per
protected appliance), being too far from earth, may simply earth
destructively via household appliances.

Wire impedance is why a connection from protector to earth must be
short (less than 10 feet) and why a wall receptacle safety (equipment)
ground is not earth ground. Phone companies prefer that separation
between protector and switching computer to be up to 50 meters. That
separation contributes to protection. Earthing wire impedance so
critical that even sharp wire bends can adversely affect protection.

Ground wires from AC wall receptacles have far too many sharp bends.

Meanwhile, what happens if a plug-in protector attempts to earth via
safety ground wire. That ground wire is bundled with all other
wires. A surge is now induces on all other wires. Just another
reason why a plug-in protector is not effective. Again, what is
required of that earthing connection? It must be separated from other
non-earthing wires. Why? So that a surge on the earthing wire will
not induce surges on all other wires. Just another reason why AC wall
receptacle safety grounds will not act as earthing for surges.

Each protector will only be as effective as its earth ground. A
protector 'less than 10 foot' to earth can be extremely effective.
The plug-in protector is so far from earth (via wires inside the wall)
as to even earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances -
as demonstrated on Page 42 Figure 8.

Industry professionals discuss wire impedance - not wire
resistance. Things like long wires, sharp bends, etc increase
impedance - adversely compromise connection to earth. 'Whole house'
protector is effective because it has a short connection to earth.

BTW it is not surge protecting breakers. A breaker would open
circuit - try to stop a surge. Is that silly little breaker going to
stop what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Again,
protector acts like a switch that closes.

Meanwhile earthing only according to code is insufficient. As
stated before, earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 code. That
means 'less than 10 feet', separated from other non-earthing wires, no
sharp bends, etc. A home that meets code still may not meet those
requirements. For example, a breaker box earthing wire should not
travel up over a foundation and then down to a ground rod. Too long.
Too many sharp bends. Better protection means through a foundation
and down to ground rods. Earthing - not the protector - defines
protection. That shorter path with fewer 90 degree turns means
enhanced protection - earthing that meets and *exceeds* code
requirements.

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:20:59 GMT, "Talal Itani"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:47:33 GMT, "Talal Itani"
wrote:


I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is
an
Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I
place
a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use
my
PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant
as
possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks.

Talal Itani



Get a whole site surge protector and a line conditioner for
the circuit between wall outlet and computer/connected
peripherals.

Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about
three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge
protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line
conditioner?



The goal is not to buy a device then see what is needed
next, it is to buy devices to methodically address the need.

IF you are serious about protection, it would mean paying
for the protective devices, not mere cheap devices that have
the same word "protector" tacked onto them.

That means you might as well throw away the Sam's club
protector, it is not a serious protection. It can be better
than nothing at some surges but that is not what you asked
about.

You do not define exactly what you want to protect against
and the budget. These are always primary concerns. There
is no perfect protection against every possible harm to your
computer, only what you get for what you pay.

The whole site protection is a low impedance path to ground
from surges entering a location. It does not provide best
protection against surges generated within that site, which
are then handled by the line conditioner.

This is not a school classroom, you asked about protection
and it was answered. Either buy the devices or don't but do
not ask us to spend lenghtly periods of time educating about
it as that is what you could have already done with a basic
Google search. This is not at all a new topic, power surges
have been around for longer than there have been computers.