If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
* YKhan:
I picked up a 16GB Class 6 (highest speed class) SDHC card for $20 including shipping on Ebay. I'm sure it cost whoever was selling it much less for him to buy it. See my answer to GMAN for that. 50GB Bluray disks can be produced for way less than $1 *today*. That's entirely possible, and that's the reason they'd want to get rid of the optical drive. A small flash drive slot would be a much more cost effective non-permanent storage medium than a disk drive. The flash drive slot indedd is cheaper than a BD drive, but at the end of the day the cheapest solution is no removable media at all. Physical distribution isn't going away, just the optical disk physical distribution. And you can't rely on the Internet to download your games when you need them. Sorry, but you must be really naive if you think physical distribution is not going away in the long term, especially since the publishers more than once expressed that this is what they are aiming for. On the PC, there already is STEAM which in fact is very successful and does completely rely on the internet to download your games, and this for several years now (and often enough, the STEAM version means less hazzle than the version on DVD which requires online activation with limited activations and other intrusive copy protection schemes). Sony and MS are constantly expanding their online stores, and this for a reason. Digital distribution means that more profit goes to the publisher, the second hand market can be dried out (by locking game titles to a certain console), much better control over pricing (single source means no pricing competition), and cost savings because mass production of media is not necessary any more. Also, only digital distribution allows new licensing models like time-based licensing. Physical media might not disappear completely, but with the next consoles we very likely will see that digital distribution plays an equal role as physical distribution, if not more (Current consoles are used as test beds for the concept). You have to be very naive to not see the writing on the wall IMHO. Benjamin |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
Bill Cable wrote:
On Nov 27, 3:15 pm, Yousuf Khan wrote: You missed the other part of this thread that said otherwise. Yousuf Khan Based on what I Googled, one division of IBM is off the Cell... not the whole of IBM. There's more he Cell is no longer hpc material - The Inquirer "According to the IBM executive's crystal ball, Cell is now no longer the right platform on which to develop HPC computing and so IBM will be shifting its focus from Cell-based co-processing to OpenCL-based co-processing - AMD's GPU stuff, in not so many words. This means that while Cell served its purpose in proving parallel processing was the way to go, development costs of further Cell based products become pointless as GPGPU computing becomes more widespread. Considering AMD is one of IBM's closest research partners this hardly comes as a surprise." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...l-hpc-material So it looks like IBM will be moving towards AMD's solutions for at least HPC stuff from now on. Other than HPC and Playstation stuff, what else is there left for Cell? It looks pretty dead to me. Yousuf Khan |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
On Nov 25, 12:56*pm, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
* parallax-scroll: The choice? The PowerVR Series 6 by Imagination Technologies that utilizes a technology known as "TBDR," which is "3-5 times better than a competitive level nVidia/ATI Graphics card." Evidently, Sega used TBDR to help power the old Sega Dreamcast and if you remember, that console was definitely ahead of its time in the visual department. Yes, at a time when the 3Dfx Voodoo2 was a top-of-the line 3D graphics card for PCs. However, it is not 1998 any more, and while AMD and Nvidia invested lots of ressources into advances in the performance and capabilities of their GPUs, the PowerVR today is merely a low-power GPU for handheld devices as their "grownup" versions never left the prototype stage. Sony would be mad if they choosed PowerVR for the PS4. But perhaps the most interesting part about all of this is that Sony will retain the Cell processor currently in all PS3s; this new piece of advanced technology from Imagination will work with the Cell. The PS4 is very unlikely to be Cell based as IBM as stopped all development for this architecture. Cell is dead. Wow. I hadn't read that. So much for Blig Merk's constant yabbering about how great Cell is. On the other hand, isn't it still possible that they'd use some current variant of Cell to power their next console? There must have been developments to the processor since the launch of the PS3 3 years ago and it would allow them to not have to worry about forcing developers to learn yet another brand new architecture for the next generation... Benjamin |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
On Nov 26, 3:48*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Jim wrote: With IBM out x86+Larrabee looks more likely than PoweVR. *Intel can make an offer Sony can't refuse. Except that Larrabee isn't proven yet. PS4 can still go to a more traditional regular PowerPC processor along with a traditional GPU, making it more like the Xbox360. I'd love to read comments from the fanboys on BOTH sides of the fences on this one, haha... * * * * Yousuf Khan |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
On Nov 28, 1:46*pm, (GMAN) wrote:
In article , Benjamin Gawert wrote: * YKhan: Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days. Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges, flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB, meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives. A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash as medium. Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper, but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible. Benjamin Oh please, I picked up 6 32Gb SDHC cards off of ebay for $8 a piece. That's definitely not what those cards were going for when they first came out. You couldn't walk into any retail store and get such an item for anywhere near that price so that's got to be getting pretty close to the actual cost of manufacture at the time those particular cards were produced. It will cost Sony a LOT less than that, on the order of a dollar or even less per piece, to mass produce Blu-ray discs... So in a few years, its very possible youll see 50GB thumb drives or memory cards for retail at that price. You already can get 16 GB for under $10 at best buy all the time |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
On Nov 28, 2:11*am, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
* YKhan: Well, Nintendo used to do fine with cartridges in the olden days. Perhaps they're going back to the modern equivalent of cartridges, flash memory thumb drives? Most modern SD flash cards are 8 to 16GB, meaning that they're already larger than or equal to DVD drives in capacity, and they are still growing. Blu-Ray disk don't seem like they offer enough of a cost advantage over flash drives. A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash as medium. Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper, but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible. I'm quite certain there would be a huge backlash from consumers if they were to take this route. Many people bank on the ability to resell games once they've finished them. Further, the network bandwidth required to handle massive downloads of even games that only take up half a Blu-ray disc won't be here even in the next decade. The U.S. is by far the most important market so the video game industry will make sure that anything they choose to do will be viable in this territory. Benjamin |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
On Nov 29, 7:56*pm, YKhan wrote:
On Nov 28, 2:11*am, Benjamin Gawert wrote: A 50GB flash drive still costs many times (magnitudes) more than a 50GB Bluray disk, so it is highly unlikely that next consoles will use flash as medium. I picked up a 16GB Class 6 (highest speed class) SDHC card for $20 including shipping on Ebay. I'm sure it cost whoever was selling it much less for him to buy it. An equally likely scenario is that they purchased them earlier and were not able to turn them around and so settled for making very little to no profit just unloading them on eBay. Besides that, game publishers clearly aim to move from physical distribution to electronic distribution, not only because it is cheaper, but also because it allows them to kill the 2nd hand market (games are locked to a console/user and can't be sold) and makes other licensing models (like time-based licensing where you buy playtime) possible. That's entirely possible, and that's the reason they'd want to get rid of the optical drive. A small flash drive slot would be a much more cost effective non-permanent storage medium than a disk drive. Physical distribution isn't going away, just the optical disk physical distribution. And you can't rely on the Internet to download your games when you need them. Optical discs are not going away anytime soon. Maybe for the generation after next but we're definitely going to have some sort of optical medium for the coming generation. It's just not cost effective enough to use anything else right now. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
On Nov 30, 1:19 am, Benjamin Gawert wrote:
* YKhan: I picked up a 16GB Class 6 (highest speed class) SDHC card for $20 including shipping on Ebay. I'm sure it cost whoever was selling it much less for him to buy it. See my answer to GMAN for that. 50GB Bluray disks can be produced for way less than $1 *today*. That's entirely possible, and that's the reason they'd want to get rid of the optical drive. A small flash drive slot would be a much more cost effective non-permanent storage medium than a disk drive. The flash drive slot indedd is cheaper than a BD drive, but at the end of the day the cheapest solution is no removable media at all. Physical distribution isn't going away, just the optical disk physical distribution. And you can't rely on the Internet to download your games when you need them. Sorry, but you must be really naive if you think physical distribution is not going away in the long term, especially since the publishers more than once expressed that this is what they are aiming for. In the long term, of course - long term being the generation after next *earliest.* On the PC, there already is STEAM which in fact is very successful and does completely rely on the internet to download your games, and this for several years now (and often enough, the STEAM version means less hazzle than the version on DVD which requires online activation with limited activations and other intrusive copy protection schemes). You can't really compare the markets. STEAM caters to PC gamers who well before the service came out were already accustomed to long wait times for the download of large files. This was nothing new to them *and* they were able to save some money because some of the cost savings were passed along to them. Console gamers only just this generation had online services and gaming (yes, I know there were online games on the Xbox and PS2 but they were not nearly as popular and widespread) and most people only download the smaller Arcade games which are relatively quick downloads even for people with slower DSL connections. It's a HUGE leap to a 25GB download. Plus, Microsoft and Sony aren't going to pass **** along to the customers - they'll keep all those savings for themselves and we'll be paying $60 for a freakin' download. They're not dumb enough to try that anytime soon. Sony and MS are constantly expanding their online stores, and this for a reason. Digital distribution means that more profit goes to the publisher, the second hand market can be dried out (by locking game titles to a certain console), much better control over pricing (single source means no pricing competition), and cost savings because mass production of media is not necessary any more. Also, only digital distribution allows new licensing models like time-based licensing. If customers had to pay full shelf price for games on STEAM, it would not have been nearly as successful and we wouldn't even be talking about it right now. Sony and MS are expanding their online stores but not taking any real big chances there. We see some of the older Xbox 360 games available but how big were those really? Maybe 6GB? 7GB? That's still a BIG difference from even a 25GB game, let alone a 50GB game. One thing is for sure, we won't be seeing anything like Metal Gear Solid 4 in download-only form for at least a couple of generations. Physical media might not disappear completely, but with the next consoles we very likely will see that digital distribution plays an equal role as physical distribution, if not more (Current consoles are used as test beds for the concept). Equal role? Unlikely. I'd say the next generation will be the "test bed" and the generation after that will see digital distribution playing a bigger role assuming that U.S. network bandwidth has sufficiently increased within the next decade (not so confident about that, though). I'm quite sure both MS and Sony are going to be looking at how well the PSP GO's software performs in the market. If Patapon 2's sales performance is any indication, not well at all... You have to be very naive to not see the writing on the wall IMHO. Benjamin |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
According to Wikipeda,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(m...nt_.28P PE.29 Put three of the "PPE" cores together and you end up with something very similar to the X360's Xenon CPU. So if Sony kept the current architecture (1 PPE + 6 SPE) and simply added two more PPEs, it can probably double the real-world CPU performance over the PS3. -- "War is the continuation of politics by other means. It can therefore be said that politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed." "The alMIGHTY N" wrote in message ... On the other hand, isn't it still possible that they'd use some current variant of Cell to power their next console? There must have been developments to the processor since the launch of the PS3 3 years ago and it would allow them to not have to worry about forcing developers to learn yet another brand new architecture for the next generation... |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ?
"Jim" wrote in message
... You need the eDRAM's bandwidth to keep the pixel pipelines full. 3.2GB/s wont give you 2.4Gigatexels so its use for gfx is limited. 3.2 GB/s is still *4x* the Dreamcast's bandwidth to local video RAM. And that's just for streaming textures to the GPU. The framebuffer is in eDRAM with its 9.6 GB/s bandwidth. Even with TBDR's claimed efficiencies back in the day (3x according to PowerVR), the PS2's architecture still had more memory bandwidth available. Going back to the original topic, the biggest problem with TBDR is its larger memory footprint, which can balloon out of control with today's polygon counts. See this Beyond3D interview with Tim Sweeney back in 2001 (when the PowerVR Kyro was making rounds), accessible through the Web Archive: http://web.archive.org/web/200104231...ML/002596.html RDRAM's high latency is another problem. RAM latency isn't as big a problem with graphics as it is with general-purpose CPU work. So if you wanted to use any of the PS2's potential you had to use 8bit textures and sub SD res. That's a fanboy urban legend turned into "truth" after it got quoted and requoted a few times. Probably what happened was that PS2 development tools weren't good, and many developers couldn't stream textures from system RAM with acceptable performance. The Dreamcast had an architecture closer to PCs, so it was easier to program and to port games over. The AA page was vague. Multisampling didn't come until next year with the GeForce3 and with the GS's bandwidth it would be cheap to use. Jaggies are usually the #1 complaint about PS2 gfx. Actually multisample AA was made popular on the Voodoo5, which came out in July 2000. The Geforce3 came out in March 2001. -- "War is the continuation of politics by other means. It can therefore be said that politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed." |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
PS4 graphics to be PowerVR Series 6 ? | Benjamin Gawert | Ati Videocards | 2 | November 26th 09 12:10 AM |
Intel's future graphics tech is PowerVR | Air Raid | General | 1 | August 10th 06 12:56 AM |
state of PowerVR Series 5 | R420 | Ati Videocards | 22 | May 28th 04 05:24 PM |
state of PowerVR Series 5 | R420 | Nvidia Videocards | 22 | May 28th 04 05:24 PM |