new system bootup woes

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:

Well, the new mobo has arrived...
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...H_990FX_R2.pdf

The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo).
I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V.

Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before
or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)?

You can "skip lots of checks" if you want.

I certainly don't take baby steps with every
build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out
of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components
in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case.
Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on
installed components. But I don't insist on doing
that test for every motherboard I buy.

If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding
a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some
additional loading.

*******

For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan,
RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and
mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole
thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared
to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary.
If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly
careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card
helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress
relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card.

Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended
if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely
to bump the video card and cause something to fall over.

If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable
mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level
of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code
execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer
the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but
your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video.
Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally
give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined
"market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest
system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no
motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the
screen.

Paul

Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was
pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong.
What to do?

Adam wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:

Well, the new mobo has arrived...
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...H_990FX_R2.pdf

The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo).
I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V.

Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before
or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)?
You can "skip lots of checks" if you want.

I certainly don't take baby steps with every
build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out
of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components
in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case.
Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on
installed components. But I don't insist on doing
that test for every motherboard I buy.

If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding
a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some
additional loading.

*******

For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan,
RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and
mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole
thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared
to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary.
If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly
careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card
helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress
relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card.

Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended
if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely
to bump the video card and cause something to fall over.

If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable
mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level
of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code
execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer
the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but
your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video.
Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally
give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined
"market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest
system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no
motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the
screen.

Paul

Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was
pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong.
What to do?

It shouldn't be thermal tape. It's probably phase change material.
Solid at room temperature. Viscous at higher temperature.

On a running system, the recommended sequence would be:

1) Prime95 or CPUBurn for 10 minutes.
2) Shut down and immediately start work on disassembly.
(While the metals are still warm).
3) Undo the clamp. Rotate the heatsink assembly slightly,
while attempting to work loose the heatsink by lifting.

That's to try to introduce some air into the gap, so
the thing will come apart.

Now, obviously, that procedure only works for a subset
of all possible conditions. If the system never powered
up yet, maybe the phase change material hasn't even had
a chance to turn into cement :-)

It's pretty difficult to apply heat safely, after
the fact. So warming it now wouldn't be quite as easy.
Yes, you can get things like heat guns or an electric
hair dryer. But you don't really know what peak temperature
that will give, or where you'll be generating that temperature.
You could melt part of the plastic fan, or exceed the safe
temperature of the organic CPU packaging (the packaging
actually limits the CPU temperature, and not the
silicon die itself). So if you're going to heat the
thing up, if you think that'll help, the source of
heat can't be too strong or focused to burn or
melt something.

I've had to remove phase change here, and it's a bitch
to scrape off. It doesn't clean up quite as well with
isopropyl, and may need some other chemicals. The Arctic
Clean solvent has orange oil in it (something like
mono-terpene limonene), which might be in the right
ballpark for the job.

If I found an aftermarket product with phase change
on it from the factory, and the odds were good I'd
need to disassemble it a couple times over lifetime,
I'd probably scrape it off when new. And replace
it with something a bit easier to work with.

It doesn't seem to hurt the ZIF sockets too mucn,
to lift out a CPU with the thing locked. That's if you
do it just the one time. If you do it over and
over again, eventually you'll tear the socket apart.
While in the past, there have been snapped off pins, that
would only happen now if you were unlucky, and lifted
at a bit of an angle, instead of straight up. If
you pull it out, and only a couple of pins remain
holding, and you pull on an angle, it could
snap one.

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:
"Paul" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:

Well, the new mobo has arrived...
http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...H_990FX_R2.pdf

The CMOS battery measures +3V (although not when installed in mobo).
I had to remove and place on Antec case to measure +3V.

Should I measure the green/purple of the 24-pin EATXPWR before
or after CPU/RAM installation (on cardboard of course)?
You can "skip lots of checks" if you want.

I certainly don't take baby steps with every
build I do. Some of my baby step runs, are out
of curiosity. That's why I've tested the "no components
in motherboard, yes, it will turn on the PSU" test case.
Just to prove that indeed, there is no dependence on
installed components. But I don't insist on doing
that test for every motherboard I buy.

If you're going to do that test, I recommend adding
a disk drive or two, to the PSU, to add some
additional loading.

*******

For my last build, I put motherboard, CPU, heatsink/fan,
RAM, and video card into system, connected keyboard and
mouse, plugged in the two power cables, and did the whole
thing in one test (look for BIOS screen). Being prepared
to back out and pull stuff out of the motherboard if necessary.
If testing a video card on cardboard, you have to be particularly
careful to not pull it out of the slot. The heel clip on the card
helps a bit, but still you have to be careful. You stress
relieve the cable, so it's not tugging on the card.

Cardboard testing on the kitchen table is not recommended
if there are kids around... Because somebody is likely
to bump the video card and cause something to fall over.

If you test without a video card, the setup is more stable
mechanically, but then it'll beep at you. Getting some level
of beeping, is a good positive sign, because it takes BIOS code
execution, to make it beep. Systems with build-in video offer
the advantage of supporting "safe cardboard testing", but
your gamer level motherboard won't have build-in video.
Boards with lots of PCI Express lanes, they don't generally
give you a chipset video as well. There are clearly defined
"market segments" that prevent that sort of overlap. My newest
system is like that, lots of PCI Express lanes, and no
motherboard video. So I have to install a card to see the
screen.

Paul

Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was
pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong.
What to do?

It shouldn't be thermal tape. It's probably phase change material.
Solid at room temperature. Viscous at higher temperature.

On a running system, the recommended sequence would be:

1) Prime95 or CPUBurn for 10 minutes.
2) Shut down and immediately start work on disassembly.
(While the metals are still warm).
3) Undo the clamp. Rotate the heatsink assembly slightly,
while attempting to work loose the heatsink by lifting.

That's to try to introduce some air into the gap, so
the thing will come apart.

Now, obviously, that procedure only works for a subset
of all possible conditions. If the system never powered
up yet, maybe the phase change material hasn't even had
a chance to turn into cement :-)

It's pretty difficult to apply heat safely, after
the fact. So warming it now wouldn't be quite as easy.
Yes, you can get things like heat guns or an electric
hair dryer. But you don't really know what peak temperature
that will give, or where you'll be generating that temperature.
You could melt part of the plastic fan, or exceed the safe
temperature of the organic CPU packaging (the packaging
actually limits the CPU temperature, and not the
silicon die itself). So if you're going to heat the
thing up, if you think that'll help, the source of
heat can't be too strong or focused to burn or
melt something.

I've had to remove phase change here, and it's a bitch
to scrape off. It doesn't clean up quite as well with
isopropyl, and may need some other chemicals. The Arctic
Clean solvent has orange oil in it (something like
mono-terpene limonene), which might be in the right
ballpark for the job.

If I found an aftermarket product with phase change
on it from the factory, and the odds were good I'd
need to disassemble it a couple times over lifetime,
I'd probably scrape it off when new. And replace
it with something a bit easier to work with.

It doesn't seem to hurt the ZIF sockets too mucn,
to lift out a CPU with the thing locked. That's if you
do it just the one time. If you do it over and
over again, eventually you'll tear the socket apart.
While in the past, there have been snapped off pins, that
would only happen now if you were unlucky, and lifted
at a bit of an angle, instead of straight up. If
you pull it out, and only a couple of pins remain
holding, and you pull on an angle, it could
snap one.

Paul

Luckily, all the pins still look perfect (straight and intact). Whew!

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.

BTW, I saw how that phase change material oozed out the sides
just a tiny bit. So, will look for that with the Arctic Silver 5.

Adam wrote:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.

I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No
real drying time.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Adam wrote:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.

I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No
real drying time.


This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent.
It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it
won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a **** poor
solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't
hurt stuff.

There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use
gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms
of safety issues.

*******

Using the available MSDS sheets for ArctiClean cleaner kit for computers...

(First solvent bottle, thermal material remover)
D-Limonene --- orange oil
Methyl Esters of Soybean Oil
Non-Ionic Surfactant --- soap

(Second solvent bottle, used as a surface purifier)
Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether --- no idea, but "miscible in everything"

The difference there, is the Limonene is more suited
to non-polar pastes than isopropyl would be. As you would
expect with products like that, you use one of the solvents
at a much higher rate than the other one, but they give you
equal sized bottles.

Paul

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Adam wrote:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.

I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu. No
real drying time.


This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent.
It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it
won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a **** poor
solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't
hurt stuff.

There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use
gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms
of safety issues.


"gasoline" ?!?!? Even the fumes (not to mention flammability) are not safe.

I just used whatever I had around that made sense.


*******

Using the available MSDS sheets for ArctiClean cleaner kit for
computers...

(First solvent bottle, thermal material remover)
D-Limonene --- orange oil
Methyl Esters of Soybean Oil
Non-Ionic Surfactant --- soap

(Second solvent bottle, used as a surface purifier)
Dipropylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether --- no idea, but "miscible in
everything"

The difference there, is the Limonene is more suited
to non-polar pastes than isopropyl would be. As you would
expect with products like that, you use one of the solvents
at a much higher rate than the other one, but they give you
equal sized bottles.

Paul

The fans spin!!! :-)

purple +5.166V
green +4.321V (short PWR-GND with screwdriver) = +0.12V

That was with CPU and RAM (no video card) on cardboard.

Will install in Antec case and then install video card.

Thanks to ALL for your help.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:03:00 -0800
"Adam" wrote:

Uh-oh, when removing the heatsink, the CPU was
pulled right out of the socket with it. That thermal tape is strong.
What to do?

Examine the pins. ;-}

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Nice computers don't go down.
Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
"The Barsoom Project"

On Sun, 28 Dec 2014 14:10:32 -0800
"Adam" wrote:

Luckily, all the pins still look perfect (straight and intact). Whew!

Good to hear!

Cybe R. Wizard
--
Nice computers don't go down.
Larry Niven, Steven Barnes
"The Barsoom Project"

Paul wrote:
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Adam wrote:

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/30...at-sink-remove
With a dropper, I soaked that phase change material with
isopropyl rubbing alcohol 70% for some minutes.
Pointed the hair dryer at the crack between the CPU and
heatsink (where the phase change material is). Then,
with a plastic stick, I pushed the CPU board along the heatsink,
which was sitting upside down with the copper facing up.
The CPU slid loose. Then, I cleaned the heatsink with
lens cleaning wipes. Thinking about cleaning the CPU with
lens cleaning wipes after it is installed in the new mobo to
avoid bending the pins. Waiting for things to dry now.

I just use the same isopropyl alcohol to clean the heatsink and cpu.
No real drying time.


This isopropyl business, isn't because it's the perfect solvent.
It's because if you get the isopropyl on any electronics, it
won't hurt anything. The isopropyl is actually a **** poor
solvent for this use, but it's commonly available and won't
hurt stuff.

I would not say **** poor. It works, it degreases, it does no harm to
the PCB or components...and it wont kill you if you do not choose to
drink it. This is in contrast to the tetrafluoro chloride that was used
to clean up boards after wave-soldering.


There are people who visit the hardware groups, who use
gasoline, and I can't imagine a worse choice. In terms
of safety issues.


Make sure they are smoking when they do it ;-)




--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Adam wrote:


The fans spin!!! :-)

purple +5.166V
green +4.321V (short PWR-GND with screwdriver) = +0.12V

That was with CPU and RAM (no video card) on cardboard.

Will install in Antec case and then install video card.

Thanks to ALL for your help.

See, it's magic :-)

Now, on with the testing.

Paul