If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
I'm a programmer by day and fix PC's at night for beer money. I can usually
identify a hardware problem, order the parts and have it fixed in a couple of days. Last summer I got this one computer that had experienced a surge during a lightning storm. No boot - tried new power supply - still not working Ordered mother board - put it all back together with old power supply. It doesn't boot - try new power supply boots but can't find hard drive Stick hard drive in another old computer now this computer doesn't work. Really freakin out and ****ed Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. Put in another hard drive and computer stops booting again, just the CPU fan is running. I return and order another motherboard(Feel kinda bad about this because I probably fried it, but Newegg is great) Put it semi back together with other hard drive it works Put the modem, CD,DVD back in and it stops working. Start to pull components when I notice the modem is a couple of hundred degrees. Pull it and it's working again Get ready to bring it over, just downloaded all XP updates. Reboot again for a final check and it will not boot up again. Give up and tell them I cannot revive it, the very first computer that I have not been able to fix. With all of those shorted components I just threw the whole mess in the trash. Just last week I got another computer and I'm headin down that road again. How do I stop myself? What steps should I take to safely and logically diagnose a computer? Do those POST Code readers really do anything usefull? Thanks, Chris |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
A post code reader was a step in the right direction. It provides
useful data - numbers. But unfortunately, you added variables to the problem by shotgunning. For every addition variable, then a failure becomes exponentially more complex - which is why shotgunning is not performed by better techs. For example, if a problem was not in a power supply and you replaced the power supply with a new one that was either marginal or defective (either way, it is neither good nor bad - it is unknown), then you have exponentially complicated the failure. In CSI, they 'follow the evidence'. You must do same. First, the foundation of a computer is its power supply. Marginal operation by a power supply will make any problem appear everywhere or anywhere. Don't diagnose a power supply by swapping. A 3.5 digit multimeter is even sold in Kmart (as well as Wal-Mart, Radio Shack, Lowes, Tru-Value Hardware, Home Depot ... ). Meter is an essential tool for anyone doing electric work - as important as a screwdriver. Second, procedure to analyze the power supply 'system' (a 'system' - not just a power supply) as summarized in "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at: http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh Notice that others in that discussion would even give up. But Valentin restarted by using a meter to learn which signal was reporting what. Included would be important numbers for any one orange, red, purple, and yellow wires: above 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7 VDC. Third, a power supply 'system' is unknown or defective until the procedure puts it into a 'definitively good' category. Only then is one suspect eliminated - you have finally accomplished something - are ready to more on to other suspects. Notice after all that swapping, what have you accomplished? Nothing. You still don't know if anything is 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad'. Remember everything is either known good, known bad, OR unknown. The world is not binary as so many shotgunners assume. You must establish each 'suspect' as either good or bad (in a ternary world) before replacing or even disconnecting a single wire. Long before disconnecting or swapping anything, knowledgeable techs first identify a suspect(s). Even changing or disconnecting one wire may only exponentially complicate the failure. Using a meter means numbers. Even if those numbers are 'good or bad', still post them here because numbers can result in other useful information from more experienced help. Another reason to use the meter? Without numbers, then more informed posters may not reply. Your replies will only be as useful as facts you provide. That means numbers. Until a power supply 'system' is known good, then post codes will report numbers that are uncertain. Power supply must be 'known good' before numbers in the post code reader can be trusted. On May 31, 4:57 pm, "Z" wrote: I'm a programmer by day and fix PC's at night for beer money. I can usually identify a hardware problem, order the parts and have it fixed in a couple of days. Last summer I got this one computer that had experienced a surge during a lightning storm. No boot - tried new power supply - still not working Ordered mother board - put it all back together with old power supply. It doesn't boot - try new power supply boots but can't find hard drive Stick hard drive in another old computer now this computer doesn't work. Really freakin out and ****ed Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. Put in another hard drive and computer stops booting again, just the CPU fan is running. I return and order another motherboard(Feel kinda bad about this because I probably fried it, but Newegg is great) Put it semi back together with other hard drive it works Put the modem, CD,DVD back in and it stops working. Start to pull components when I notice the modem is a couple of hundred degrees. Pull it and it's working again Get ready to bring it over, just downloaded all XP updates. Reboot again for a final check and it will not boot up again. Give up and tell them I cannot revive it, the very first computer that I have not been able to fix. With all of those shorted components I just threw the whole mess in the trash. Just last week I got another computer and I'm headin down that road again. How do I stop myself? What steps should I take to safely and logically diagnose a computer? Do those POST Code readers really do anything usefull? |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
Given the resources I would use a 2nd or 3rd known working computer & assume
that all the 'bits' in the faulty one were faulty & try one at a time in the other machines. @@@ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
On Thu, 31 May 2007 16:57:03 -0400, "Z" wrote:
I'm a programmer by day and fix PC's at night for beer money. Don't fix computers while drunk or sleepy. Don't get "stuck" on insisting you find a solution at one moment (unless an emergency / job related), if you get stuck, set something aside and your subconscious mind may work out a solution later. I can usually identify a hardware problem, order the parts and have it fixed in a couple of days. ? Depends on the problem, often just replacing the part is akin to giving up, though time is valuable too, some problems aren't worth solving. Of course other times the part is just damaged/dead/ or bugs that would never be resolved. Last summer I got this one computer that had experienced a surge during a lightning storm. No boot - tried new power supply - still not working Before new PSU did you unplug the present from AC, then clear CMOS, and replug/try again? Always unplug PSU and clear CMOS before changing parts, especially since it's quick, easy, free. Ordered mother board - put it all back together with old power supply. It doesn't boot - try new power supply boots but can't find hard drive Stick hard drive in another old computer now this computer doesn't work. Really freakin out and ****ed Why so? A surge travels every path it can, though some lower impedance will be (more) destructive. If the surge is bad enough it becomes a scenario of taking a working system and trying each questionable part in turn in that system. Even worse is that some forms of surge damage are not immediate or obvious failure, a chip can have some burns and still more-or-less work, it's that "less" part which could eventually be a problem... so stability checks are very important like Prime95, memtest86+. Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. I don't understand why you did this, at this point. Based on what was written (and if you had unplugged from AC and cleared CMOS) it would seem the PSU, board and HDD are damaged. You report no other problems with the board *yet* so perhaps you left something out, but this is one area where having another drive or boot device to run memtest86+ might not hurt, to see if the basic functionality of the board is in tact. IOW, if the board had finished posting onto the point of detecting drives and that fails, AND the drive in question seems nonfunctional in other system, you had indication the board was working up to that point... and you had no real reason to POST code check the new board with the new psu since neither were subjected to the surge... unless again you left out some details. Put in another hard drive and computer stops booting again, just the CPU fan is running. We dont know if it was stable. Where does it stop booting? you are leaving out the key troubleshooting and system-validation-as-stable details and only describing what it won't do, not what it does do successfully. Both must be considered when finding fault. I return and order another motherboard(Feel kinda bad about this because I probably fried it, but Newegg is great) Maybe, if the old PSU were outputting bad power so before trying the old PSU the new PSU should have been tried or at least the old checked with a multimeter before attempt to power anything valuable... but you only wrote that system didn't boot with old PSU, again leaving out key details of exactly what it WAS doing... so we have no way to know if your next step was reasonable or not. Put it semi back together with other hard drive it works Put the modem, CD,DVD back in and it stops working. Don't bother trying to build up a whole system then try it. Start out with minimum parts - CPU, 1 memory module, heatsink/fan, video card (least power hungry card you have, preferribly not the one in the system previously during the surge event). See if it can then do what is expected given the parts attached. Attach a boot device that can load and run memtest86. If it is stable at this point, attach hard drive. See if drive is detected, if it starts to boot the OS. Forget about modem/opticals/etc until bare minimum parts work to run more diagnostics or OS, then diagnostics (which could be anything, using the required features of the system and checking basic stability. Start to pull components when I notice the modem is a couple of hundred degrees. Unless it was inserted in the slot wrong, (which is hard to do, but leaving no possibility unaccounted for) throw it away, do not put in this or any other system it's not worth the time or risk. At this point, you have identified a component which if previously installed when the system wouldn't work, might have been at fault. Now the other parts might be rechecked without the modem if it was always installed. Another reason to start out with minimal build and work upwards to final config instead of subtractively. Also with parts subject to surges, it might not hurt to inspect them under strong light before trying, applying power again. Pull it and it's working again Get ready to bring it over, just downloaded all XP updates. Reboot again for a final check and it will not boot up again. Give up and tell them I cannot revive it, the very first computer that I have not been able to fix. With all of those shorted components I just threw the whole mess in the trash. While the odds of everything (or at least much) being damaged are low, it happens... some failures are harder to fix than others. Just last week I got another computer and I'm headin down that road again. How do I stop myself? What steps should I take to safely and logically diagnose a computer? Do those POST Code readers really do anything usefull? The most useful thing is to have spares of compatible parts, preferribly a whole system. Since you are yet again fixing another suspect system it could be good to maintain a small stock of such parts and in your spare time, instead of throwing away the questionable parts (besides those with obvbious faults like the modem) retest the other parts as it is convenient, when an opportunity presents itself with least work or time required to do it. This is more feasible for maintaining stock of a spare drive, PSU, modem, etc, than for parts changing frequently like motherboards, CPUs, and memory... but even those are not so hard to stock in some situations. For example if you are getting at least some kind of just compensation for the time, part of that could be keeping the whole suspect system and to the (customer?) it is as good a value to just pay for replacement parts to achieve a quick build, minimal extra bench time, instead of diagnostic time just to end up with parts known already to be subject to damaging surge conditions and that were potentially not very valuable anymore as they depreciated over time and use/wear. In summary, surge damage is one of the biggest PITA to troubleshoot, particularly if you don't have a whole 2nd system in which to swap out parts. The POST code reader is most valuable when you need to check what a motherboard is doing if you have reasonable expectation the CPU, memory and PSU are still good. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
I've fixed dozens and dozens of computers over the years by 'shotgunning', I
guess it was just dumb luck that all worked until that one. Of course in most cases it's obvious, bad hard drive, cd etc. I have a multimeter that I've used for other projects and want to learn more about using it to diagnose problems. I want to diagnose my current problem computer correctly and methodically. Thanks for the link, looks like a lot of good info in that thread. Any other resources you can point me to(websites/books) to learn more about it? Thanks, Chris "w_tom" wrote in message oups.com... A post code reader was a step in the right direction. It provides useful data - numbers. But unfortunately, you added variables to the problem by shotgunning. For every addition variable, then a failure becomes exponentially more complex - which is why shotgunning is not performed by better techs. For example, if a problem was not in a power supply and you replaced the power supply with a new one that was either marginal or defective (either way, it is neither good nor bad - it is unknown), then you have exponentially complicated the failure. In CSI, they 'follow the evidence'. You must do same. First, the foundation of a computer is its power supply. Marginal operation by a power supply will make any problem appear everywhere or anywhere. Don't diagnose a power supply by swapping. A 3.5 digit multimeter is even sold in Kmart (as well as Wal-Mart, Radio Shack, Lowes, Tru-Value Hardware, Home Depot ... ). Meter is an essential tool for anyone doing electric work - as important as a screwdriver. Second, procedure to analyze the power supply 'system' (a 'system' - not just a power supply) as summarized in "When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at: http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh Notice that others in that discussion would even give up. But Valentin restarted by using a meter to learn which signal was reporting what. Included would be important numbers for any one orange, red, purple, and yellow wires: above 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7 VDC. Third, a power supply 'system' is unknown or defective until the procedure puts it into a 'definitively good' category. Only then is one suspect eliminated - you have finally accomplished something - are ready to more on to other suspects. Notice after all that swapping, what have you accomplished? Nothing. You still don't know if anything is 'definitively good' or 'definitively bad'. Remember everything is either known good, known bad, OR unknown. The world is not binary as so many shotgunners assume. You must establish each 'suspect' as either good or bad (in a ternary world) before replacing or even disconnecting a single wire. Long before disconnecting or swapping anything, knowledgeable techs first identify a suspect(s). Even changing or disconnecting one wire may only exponentially complicate the failure. Using a meter means numbers. Even if those numbers are 'good or bad', still post them here because numbers can result in other useful information from more experienced help. Another reason to use the meter? Without numbers, then more informed posters may not reply. Your replies will only be as useful as facts you provide. That means numbers. Until a power supply 'system' is known good, then post codes will report numbers that are uncertain. Power supply must be 'known good' before numbers in the post code reader can be trusted. On May 31, 4:57 pm, "Z" wrote: I'm a programmer by day and fix PC's at night for beer money. I can usually identify a hardware problem, order the parts and have it fixed in a couple of days. Last summer I got this one computer that had experienced a surge during a lightning storm. No boot - tried new power supply - still not working Ordered mother board - put it all back together with old power supply. It doesn't boot - try new power supply boots but can't find hard drive Stick hard drive in another old computer now this computer doesn't work. Really freakin out and ****ed Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. Put in another hard drive and computer stops booting again, just the CPU fan is running. I return and order another motherboard(Feel kinda bad about this because I probably fried it, but Newegg is great) Put it semi back together with other hard drive it works Put the modem, CD,DVD back in and it stops working. Start to pull components when I notice the modem is a couple of hundred degrees. Pull it and it's working again Get ready to bring it over, just downloaded all XP updates. Reboot again for a final check and it will not boot up again. Give up and tell them I cannot revive it, the very first computer that I have not been able to fix. With all of those shorted components I just threw the whole mess in the trash. Just last week I got another computer and I'm headin down that road again. How do I stop myself? What steps should I take to safely and logically diagnose a computer? Do those POST Code readers really do anything usefull? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
On May 31, 1:57 pm, "Z" wrote:
I'm a programmer by day and fix PC's at night for beer money. I can usually identify a hardware problem, order the parts and have it fixed in a couple of days. Last summer I got this one computer that had experienced a surge during a lightning storm. No boot - tried new power supply - still not working Ordered mother board - put it all back together with old power supply. It doesn't boot - try new power supply boots but can't find hard drive Stick hard drive in another old computer now this computer doesn't work. Really freakin out and ****ed Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. Put in another hard drive and computer stops booting again, just the CPU fan is running. I return and order another motherboard(Feel kinda bad about this because I probably fried it, but Newegg is great) Put it semi back together with other hard drive it works Put the modem, CD,DVD back in and it stops working. Start to pull components when I notice the modem is a couple of hundred degrees. Pull it and it's working again Get ready to bring it over, just downloaded all XP updates. Reboot again for a final check and it will not boot up again. Give up and tell them I cannot revive it, the very first computer that I have not been able to fix. With all of those shorted components I just threw the whole mess in the trash. Just last week I got another computer and I'm headin down that road again. How do I stop myself? What steps should I take to safely and logically diagnose a computer? Do those POST Code readers really do anything usefull? Not really. Thanks, Chris I stop at replacing three pieces of hardware. If you have to fight it that hard, it's not likely to be stable or happy, long term. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
On Thu, 31 May 2007 21:35:44 -0400, "Z" wrote:
I've fixed dozens and dozens of computers over the years by 'shotgunning', I guess it was just dumb luck that all worked until that one. Depends on whether the fault mode had a strong possiblity of damaging more than one part at a time. When it does, it is best to start out with least components possible, test that much, and then add another & retest, etc. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
Z wrote: Last summer I got this one computer that had experienced a surge during a lightning storm. No boot - tried new power supply - still not working Ordered mother board - put it all back together with old power supply. It doesn't boot - try new power supply boots but can't find hard drive Why did you try the new mobo with the old PSU? Did you first test the old PSU to see if it was putting out any excessive voltage or too much AC ripple? |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
Z wrote:
Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. POST cards are ALWAYS a waste of money. Get a refund as it was a waste -- http://www.bootdisk.com/ |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Cursed Computers - When to give up
On 14 Jun 2007 00:16:02 -0500, Plato |@|.| wrote:
Z wrote: Order a couple of POST Code readers from Ebay. One doen't tell me anything, one tells me everything is rosy. POST cards are ALWAYS a waste of money. Get a refund as it was a waste In many cases this is true, though some of those selling on ebay cost so little it would cost less to keep it than pay to return ship it. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
I give up........... | Vince | Dell Computers | 31 | August 6th 05 11:53 PM |
P4B gone mad - or cracked or cursed ?? | Arifi Koseoglu | Asus Motherboards | 2 | October 9th 04 07:43 PM |
Bicycle computers and other micro computers | Joseph | General | 0 | January 27th 04 03:33 PM |
My harddrive is cursed ! | Alberto Panno-Peano | General Hardware | 2 | January 20th 04 06:59 PM |
Cleaning/Erasing old computers to give away? | Whelan | Dell Computers | 8 | December 16th 03 05:48 PM |