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Computer Eating Keyboards



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 23rd 07, 03:37 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,418
Default Computer Eating Keyboards

On May 22, 8:14 am, "Z" wrote:
I have a client that has a Emachines computer.
Over the past 5 days their computer has killed 3 keyboards.
The 2nd dead keyboard worked for a day, then the next day input 2 characters
for each key pressed then died on the 3rd day.

I have never seen anything like this. I do not recieve any errors from bios
or windows.

Should I just swap the motherboard?

Thanks


Emachines=Evil. What happens more often is the power supply dies and
takes the motherboard with it. I'd change the PSU on general
principles. I've seen dozens of e-corpses with dead motherboards and
power supplies.


  #12  
Old May 23rd 07, 11:07 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
GT
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Posts: 889
Default Computer Eating Keyboards

"Z" wrote in message
...

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 May 2007 11:14:06 -0400, "Z" wrote:

I have a client that has a Emachines computer.
Over the past 5 days their computer has killed 3 keyboards.
The 2nd dead keyboard worked for a day, then the next day input 2
characters
for each key pressed then died on the 3rd day.

I have never seen anything like this. I do not recieve any errors from
bios
or windows.

Should I just swap the motherboard?

Thanks



Insufficient info. When there are two characters it is most
often a keyboard contact problem (like liquid in it). Is
the environment very very humid or it is possible they keep
dumping liquid in? Have these keyboards been tried on other
systems to confirm they are bad? Are they the same
keyboard, perhaps you have a (Manufacturing run) lot of them
with a particular problem?

What about other devices on same (PS2 or USB?) port, do
those work?

Yes if you can rule out environment and the keyboards
themselves, the motherboard remains a prime suspect.


The business is a muffler/auto repair shop and these computers get Real
Nasty with a black dust. I try to keep them clean and isolated, but parts
fail on them pretty regularly.


Maybe this dust is conductive and some has got into the keyboard port on the
motherboard. Try giving that port a good clean before plugging in a new
keyboard.


  #13  
Old May 24th 07, 05:18 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Z
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Posts: 6
Default Computer Eating Keyboards


"kony" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 May 2007 12:18:51 -0400, "Z" wrote:


The business is a muffler/auto repair shop and these computers get Real
Nasty with a black dust. I try to keep them clean and isolated, but parts
fail on them pretty regularly.


This is most likely the problem. You need keyboard covers
at the very least or if that is insufficient, industrial
sealed keyboards. You might also recommend to the shop that
they may be in violation of health standards and should
consider an air cleaner if it isn't solely being deposited
by dirty hands (but if it is, employees washing their hands
would help too).

Since most factors are not directly under your control, I
suggest buying a bulk pack of keyboards with a config you
can find a keyboard cover for, so the keyboards last a bit
longer then if it acts up the cover is washed and the next
keyboard is installed.

The system might be in sad shape from this as well, given
enough metallic dust it could theoretically short out the
USB port but since the keyboards appear to work otherwise
(when first plugged in, new), it tends to suggest only
keyboard failure at this point.


Thanks for the info. I think I'll try Mike's suggestion of a USB keyboard
as this would be cheaper than a motherboard.



I don't expect that to matter, unless the particular
keyboard just happened to be sealed better or designed
different. Note that waterproof types might help but
spillproof/leak-resistant may not, as the latter can mean
they only molded some channeling and put drain holes in
which is not sufficient but for some kinds of small water
spills.


Well, the problem seems to definitely be more widespread. I installed a USB
keyboard and it worked great on first boot. The both it and the mouse(PS/2)
stopped working. THEN, their parallel dongle(For their Alldata parts
software) stopped working. At that point I moved their shop database to
their other computer and shut the bad one down. I'm ordering a replacement
motherboard in the morning and will give the rest a thorough cleaning.

I had your post in mind when I went back to the shop this morning. I
watched several of their mechanics come in, grab an Alldata DVD(The package
contains a dozen or so DVD's each covering a range of auto makers/vehicle
types/years) and pop it into the computer. I actually saw the dust pop off
their hands onto the DVD's as they placed them in the computer, must be
static.

If anyone has any suggestions on affordable 'industrial' PC cases/hardware
I'd like to hear them. I'm usually pretty good at finding thing on Google,
but all I've come across is hyper-expensive/rack mount blocks that really
don't fit their needs.

I did find one possible solution that I am pursuing. They gave me an 8"x6"
auto air filter. I bought a 4" 115v fan from Radio Shack and bought wood,
flexible gutter elbow and attachments at Home Depot(~$34 in parts). I'm
going to build a fan/filter system that pumps through the filter and into
the back of the PC. Supposedly this will filter all incoming air and create
a 'positive air pressure' in the case so that all other holes in the case
push air and dust away from the computer.

I'll update next week and a few months out on the filter system. I think
they also need to keep some handiwipes right next to the main shop computer.
I've cleaned enough bottoms with those, hopefully they work as well on shop
dust

Thanks to all for the info/tips.

Chris


  #14  
Old May 24th 07, 05:34 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Noozer
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Posts: 450
Default Computer Eating Keyboards


I did find one possible solution that I am pursuing. They gave me an
8"x6"
auto air filter. I bought a 4" 115v fan from Radio Shack and bought wood,
flexible gutter elbow and attachments at Home Depot(~$34 in parts). I'm
going to build a fan/filter system that pumps through the filter and into
the back of the PC. Supposedly this will filter all incoming air and
create a 'positive air pressure' in the case so that all other holes in
the case push air and dust away from the computer.


Better yet... Get an external drive and put the PC into a clean environment.
Use mouse/keyboard/optical drive with long cables. Even better if you could
image the optical disks onto the hard drive.


  #15  
Old May 24th 07, 06:44 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Computer Eating Keyboards

Z wrote:
"kony" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 May 2007 12:18:51 -0400, "Z" wrote:


The business is a muffler/auto repair shop and these computers get Real
Nasty with a black dust. I try to keep them clean and isolated, but parts
fail on them pretty regularly.

This is most likely the problem. You need keyboard covers
at the very least or if that is insufficient, industrial
sealed keyboards. You might also recommend to the shop that
they may be in violation of health standards and should
consider an air cleaner if it isn't solely being deposited
by dirty hands (but if it is, employees washing their hands
would help too).

Since most factors are not directly under your control, I
suggest buying a bulk pack of keyboards with a config you
can find a keyboard cover for, so the keyboards last a bit
longer then if it acts up the cover is washed and the next
keyboard is installed.

The system might be in sad shape from this as well, given
enough metallic dust it could theoretically short out the
USB port but since the keyboards appear to work otherwise
(when first plugged in, new), it tends to suggest only
keyboard failure at this point.


Thanks for the info. I think I'll try Mike's suggestion of a USB keyboard
as this would be cheaper than a motherboard.


I don't expect that to matter, unless the particular
keyboard just happened to be sealed better or designed
different. Note that waterproof types might help but
spillproof/leak-resistant may not, as the latter can mean
they only molded some channeling and put drain holes in
which is not sufficient but for some kinds of small water
spills.


Well, the problem seems to definitely be more widespread. I installed a USB
keyboard and it worked great on first boot. The both it and the mouse(PS/2)
stopped working. THEN, their parallel dongle(For their Alldata parts
software) stopped working. At that point I moved their shop database to
their other computer and shut the bad one down. I'm ordering a replacement
motherboard in the morning and will give the rest a thorough cleaning.

I had your post in mind when I went back to the shop this morning. I
watched several of their mechanics come in, grab an Alldata DVD(The package
contains a dozen or so DVD's each covering a range of auto makers/vehicle
types/years) and pop it into the computer. I actually saw the dust pop off
their hands onto the DVD's as they placed them in the computer, must be
static.

If anyone has any suggestions on affordable 'industrial' PC cases/hardware
I'd like to hear them. I'm usually pretty good at finding thing on Google,
but all I've come across is hyper-expensive/rack mount blocks that really
don't fit their needs.

I did find one possible solution that I am pursuing. They gave me an 8"x6"
auto air filter. I bought a 4" 115v fan from Radio Shack and bought wood,
flexible gutter elbow and attachments at Home Depot(~$34 in parts). I'm
going to build a fan/filter system that pumps through the filter and into
the back of the PC. Supposedly this will filter all incoming air and create
a 'positive air pressure' in the case so that all other holes in the case
push air and dust away from the computer.

I'll update next week and a few months out on the filter system. I think
they also need to keep some handiwipes right next to the main shop computer.
I've cleaned enough bottoms with those, hopefully they work as well on shop
dust

Thanks to all for the info/tips.

Chris


Get out the multimeter, and check the +5V and +5VSB coming from the PSU.
I can understand a bad PS/2 port and/or a bad keyboard causing indigestion
for one another. But why would two different interface types have failures ?
To me, the common element, is a supply rail out of spec.

For the DVDs, there are several solutions. Buy them a dozen DVD drives
and leave the DVDs loaded. Use software to mount ISO copies of the
DVD. Or, if the Alldata software allows it, copy the DVDs to the
hard drive.

A filtered air supply is a great idea, but who is going to clean the filter ?

Zalman makes a couple of enclosures that can do away with fans. It helps
if the computer parts inside it, are not high power "gamer" parts. This review
is for a box that can hold a microATX 9.6"x9.6" motherboard. Their concept
is to use heatpipes, to move heat from hot components inside, to the sides
of the computer case.

TNN300 case - about $600 or so:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article302-page1.html

Paul
  #16  
Old May 24th 07, 06:49 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
kony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,416
Default Computer Eating Keyboards

On Thu, 24 May 2007 00:18:55 -0400, "Z" wrote:


Well, the problem seems to definitely be more widespread. I installed a USB
keyboard and it worked great on first boot. The both it and the mouse(PS/2)
stopped working. THEN, their parallel dongle(For their Alldata parts
software) stopped working. At that point I moved their shop database to
their other computer and shut the bad one down. I'm ordering a replacement
motherboard in the morning and will give the rest a thorough cleaning.

I had your post in mind when I went back to the shop this morning. I
watched several of their mechanics come in, grab an Alldata DVD(The package
contains a dozen or so DVD's each covering a range of auto makers/vehicle
types/years) and pop it into the computer. I actually saw the dust pop off
their hands onto the DVD's as they placed them in the computer, must be
static.


First I recommend that they not handle these DVDs. Rip them
to a hard drive as ISO and use an emulation program like
Daemon Tools to access these ISO stored on the system (or
store the ISOs on a central fileserver, we dont' know how
elaborate this setup is. They just should not be handling
and inserting media while covered in metallic dust, and they
would probably love that they no longer have to fool around
with popping in DVDs, though it will take a minor amount of
training for them to start using a shortcut already present
instead of loading the DVD each time.





If anyone has any suggestions on affordable 'industrial' PC cases/hardware
I'd like to hear them. I'm usually pretty good at finding thing on Google,
but all I've come across is hyper-expensive/rack mount blocks that really
don't fit their needs.


Well it won't be cheap... that's what happens when an
industrial, niche product. We don't know anything about
this scenario, like amount of space available for the case
or if they could move it or make more room for it or
anything like t hat. It's not like there's one page with
every industrial case on it, but they're out there... you
are the only one who knows what limitations there are as
industrial cases generally aren't just same size and shape
as they'd be if it were a case for Joe Average's Gaming
system.

If you want to keep them out of the DVD drive, a lockable 2
or 3U rack case might not be such a bad idea.

I did find one possible solution that I am pursuing. They gave me an 8"x6"
auto air filter. I bought a 4" 115v fan from Radio Shack and bought wood,
flexible gutter elbow and attachments at Home Depot(~$34 in parts).


Might I suggest that you increase the filter size (or use
two), use a DC fan instead of AC (safety concerns, remember
someone else may eventually fiddle with this or bump it or
who-knows-what and you might be liable for tack-on circuits
like this.

I suggest not using wood or gutter elbow and similar things.
Take a case which has the drive bay not attached to the
bottom 1/3rd of the front metal wall of the case. Cut a
hole in that metal to accomodate a 120mm x 38mm (not
25.4mm!) thick fan. The fan is mounted to the inside of
that metal wall.

Get some foam adhesive backed weatherstripping from the
hardware store. With it, create an airtight border around
the inside of the case bezel, that entire front panel.
Depending on how it's made and shaped you may need to vary
the application of the foam but basically just stick it on
such that it extends past the edge and is compressed
slightly when the bezel is placed back on the metal chassis.
Also take a piece of high density foam cut to shape and
liberally contact cement it toward the middle of the bezel
to form another pocket of trapped air right in front of the
fan. Finally, cut out a large rectangular hole in the
bottom front of the bezel. The dimensions of this hole will
be about 1" narrower and 1" shorter than the dimensions of
the filter material. The extra 1/2" overlap on each side is
so you can mount the filter. To mount it, get some aluminum
angle from a hardware store. Dimensions like 1/2" x 1/2"
and 1/8" thick should be about right but the specifics of
the application might make a different size more wieldy.

Measure and cut the channel into the sides and bottom of a
channel to hold the filter(s). The top is left open so the
filters can be slid in and out, or if the filter gaskets are
thick enough to hold them in place well against gravity, you
could leave the bottom off the frame instead of the top. So
this channeled frame bolts to the case bezel, with the
filters out in front where they can see when they get dirty
and replace them. Don't forget to put a fan grill on the
front of the 120mm fan.



I'm
going to build a fan/filter system that pumps through the filter and into
the back of the PC.


It might work but since most cases were designed to have air
intake in the front, and exhaust out the rear of the PSU, it
seems more likely this will create a short loop where the
heated PSU exhaust is slow to mix with the ambient air due
to location and a higher % is drawn back into the system.
It would require a higher airflow rate to achieve same
average system temp. On the other hand, getting everything
out of the front of the system and having it either sealed
or as an exhaust would reduce dirt/dust/etc buildup on the
filter, "Maybe" (hard to say without knowing the environment
and exact configurations possible within that environment.
It would certainly be pretty noisey to have a high level of
filtration and thin ductwork. You might move away from
axial fans and use a radial fan (like squirrel cage type, a
larger size as a lot of ducting and filtering will require
more than a little 4" fan unless it's spinning so fast it is
very loud.



Supposedly this will filter all incoming air and create
a 'positive air pressure' in the case so that all other holes in the case
push air and dust away from the computer.


yes that is the general idea, you just have to make sure the
intake fan actually does push more air than the existing
fans (usually chassis and PSU rear) are exhausting. In
other words, be sure to test the positive pressurization and
that it is enough, not just a slight pressurization as the
pressure level changes as the filter gets clogged with dust,
moving from more positive to less positive pressure in the
case, even going to negative pressure once the filter is
clogged enough.


I'll update next week and a few months out on the filter system. I think
they also need to keep some handiwipes right next to the main shop computer.
I've cleaned enough bottoms with those, hopefully they work as well on shop
dust



The other common option is that you put the system in a
cabinet. I mean airtight with an intake and exhaust port
wherever it's necessary and then that intake is filtered.
System is just as it always was, but cleaned out, and
protected behind the sealed and filtered cabinet. There are
quite a few industrial cases like this, but that's not a
hard thing to build youself out of plywood or thicker
plexiglass/polycarbonate/etc, so long as they don't need to
use the DVD drive anymore, and if they need be able to turn
system off/on, of course a remotely mounted switch on the
cabinet.

You might also look at what options there are to reduce
total heat levels in the system. Lower heat requires less
airflow, results in less actively drawn in dust.
  #17  
Old May 24th 07, 07:06 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Z
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Computer Eating Keyboards


"Paul" wrote in message ...
A filtered air supply is a great idea, but who is going to clean the
filter ?


They are not going to 'clean' the filter, they will replace it with one off
their parts shelf; kinda the beauty of the design, attach an auto filter to
a computer at an auto shop and it starts to make sense to them. I'm
partially done with my air filter contraption and am so far happy with it.

I promise to update with my results.

Chris


  #18  
Old May 26th 07, 05:58 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
ProfGene
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Posts: 108
Default Computer Eating Keyboards

Z wrote:
I have a client that has a Emachines computer.
Over the past 5 days their computer has killed 3 keyboards.
The 2nd dead keyboard worked for a day, then the next day input 2 characters
for each key pressed then died on the 3rd day.

I have never seen anything like this. I do not recieve any errors from bios
or windows.

Should I just swap the motherboard?

Thanks


May the ps2 connnector is faulty. Try a USB keyboard.
 




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