Is it possible to build a silent computer, without fans at all? What case should I buy?

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
Yeah, I'm pretty sure they are the correct figures. I put my fingers
on the heat sink and it feels room temp. The northbridge has no fan
and with my finger on it you can tell it's hotter then room temp. I
also ran it for a while with the fan disconnected to see how quickly
it heated up and it heated up slowly but did heat up some. The
difference between running the fan full speed and at the lowest speed
only seems to be 3 degrees C.

Ahh - are these temperatures when the CPU is under load or sitting idle,
because at idle it probably has power saving measures to reduce consumption
and thereby cut temperatures. Let it run a 100% load test (3D test perhaps)
for 5-10 minutes and see what the temperature is *during* that. I expect it
will cool down again pretty rapidly after it finishes.

On Feb 7, 3:15 pm, mike wrote:
Ken Maltby wrote:
"k" wrote in message
roups.com...
Hello!
Is it possible to build a silent computer, without fans at all? What
case should I buy?
Best regards,
Dima
+790350938

I have a true silent system, but it would not be practical for
everyone.

It is water cooled and I have used 1/2" PVC piping to carry
the water from the room with this PC to another room in the
house. The water pump, fan, and radiator are in the other
room, and can't be heard.

Luck;
Ken

I once built a system with a heavily damped case and dryer vent hose
to carry the hot air and noise elsewhere. Wasn't silent, but was a
lot quieter than before. Got tired of tripping over the hose and
switched to a laptop who's fan didn't run much.
mike- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks mike!
Is there a laptop with two vga outputs with different resolutions?
Best regards,
Dima

On Feb 8, 6:21 am, kony wrote:
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 12:29:36 +1100, "Rod Speed"

wrote:
mobo power reg subcircuit relies on passive cooling
but not convection, rather the expected chassis airflow.

Wrong, as always. Have fun explaining how it works fine with no chassis airflow.

It doesn't work fine, boards die early because of it, unless
a paritcularly low powered CPU such that the generated heat
is similarly low... or towards the same end, the system is
just sitting idle with ACPI/Halt-cooling drastically
reducing current.

A CPU, northbridge or video card fan can be less audible than
a chassis fan, because the chassis can trap the majority of the
noise produced. Less audible even means inaudible.

Irrelevant to whether fanless is perfectly possible.

Possible given the right combination of parts, AND setup,
yes. Possible in general without special measures, no.
Also given these special measures it will still be likely
the system suffers an early demise from running hot.

As for PSU, what kind of silly delusion
is it to think they'll be ok passively?

Perfectly possible to DESIGN one fanless, child.

Actually none of the existing fanless PSU do well in a
system with no fans, like a board they end up relying on the
passive airflow created by the case fans. The only other
viable alternative is a specially designed, extremely low
power system.


now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .

Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?

snip

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:29:23 -0600, "Ken Maltby"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:57:53 -0600, "Ken Maltby"
wrote:


Snip

There is no higher temperature, in fact things are much cooler
in the box than it ever was with fans.

You have not described any method of cooling that would
result in this, rather mismeasurements of a heatsink and
rejection of the effects on capacitors.


The water cooling, as I have it implemented, removes the
heat not only from the specific component, and from the
case but also from the room. Your fans can remove a
lessor amount of heat from the component, and dump it
into the air inside the case. Much, but not all, of the heat
will then be expelled from the case, into the room, to be
sucked back into the case.

Room temp is insignificant unless we assume every computer
room has a significant rise from having the computer in it.
You are contrasting a trivially lower (perhaps 10C) chassis
air temp and active chassis airflow to cool OTHER parts, to
no airflow. Airflow makes far more difference than this
chassis vs ambient difference. If you don't believe it,
take off your water block on your CPU, put only a passive
heatsink on it and let's see how it fares in a board laying
out in a room that stays the same temp, versus having a fan
on it in a case. We both know the passive option is hotter.



In addition any air within the
watercooled system that encounters the other five surfaces
of a waterblock, will give up some of its heat, as well.

You are trying hard to stretch negligable things into an
argument. There is not nearly high enough surface ara on
the waterblock, the waterblock is HEATED from the part it is
cooling, and the temp difference between chasssis ambient
and waterblock is not only minor, but the waterblock
would've even been HOTTER than the case if only you had a
fan in the system, so you somewhat have it backwards.



I think it's inevitable that such water cooling will lower the
temps. inside the case.


You can think on it and guess and not have any reasonable
way to conclude it, or just measure temps properly as is the
scientific methodology. Others have and know it does result
in hotter running parts besides those with the waterblocks
on them.

On 12 Feb 2007 11:06:55 -0800, "
wrote:


Actually none of the existing fanless PSU do well in a
system with no fans, like a board they end up relying on the
passive airflow created by the case fans. The only other
viable alternative is a specially designed, extremely low
power system.


now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .


They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.




Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.




I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?


Failed. They die.

On Feb 12, 8:21 pm, kony wrote:
On 12 Feb 2007 11:06:55 -0800, "

wrote:
Actually none of the existing fanless PSU do well in a
system with no fans, like a board they end up relying on the
passive airflow created by the case fans. The only other
viable alternative is a specially designed, extremely low
power system.

now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .

They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.



Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.



I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?

Failed. They die.

what makes/models have you tried?
I googled
thermaltake fanless power supply overheat

I didn't get horror stories. One guy said it worked fine so far(2
days).

"kony" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:29:23 -0600, "Ken Maltby"
wrote:


"kony" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 05:57:53 -0600, "Ken Maltby"
wrote:


Snip

There is no higher temperature, in fact things are much cooler
in the box than it ever was with fans.

You have not described any method of cooling that would
result in this, rather mismeasurements of a heatsink and
rejection of the effects on capacitors.


The water cooling, as I have it implemented, removes the
heat not only from the specific component, and from the
case but also from the room. Your fans can remove a
lessor amount of heat from the component, and dump it
into the air inside the case. Much, but not all, of the heat
will then be expelled from the case, into the room, to be
sucked back into the case.

Room temp is insignificant unless we assume every computer
room has a significant rise from having the computer in it.
You are contrasting a trivially lower (perhaps 10C) chassis
air temp and active chassis airflow to cool OTHER parts, to
no airflow. Airflow makes far more difference than this
chassis vs ambient difference. If you don't believe it,
take off your water block on your CPU, put only a passive
heatsink on it and let's see how it fares in a board laying
out in a room that stays the same temp, versus having a fan
on it in a case. We both know the passive option is hotter.


Not necessarily, I have a pretty good Hunter ceiling fan.
The passive heatsink could be hotter than an active heatsink,
at a point of measurement, but there is nothing to say that a
massive passive heatsink with the proper design couldn't
cool the part better than your standard CPU heatsink and
fan.




In addition any air within the
watercooled system that encounters the other five surfaces
of a waterblock, will give up some of its heat, as well.

You are trying hard to stretch negligable things into an
argument. There is not nearly high enough surface ara on
the waterblock, the waterblock is HEATED from the part it is
cooling, and the temp difference between chasssis ambient
and waterblock is not only minor, but the waterblock
would've even been HOTTER than the case if only you had a
fan in the system, so you somewhat have it backwards.


Now you are just being totally ignorant, and it is obvious
you have never encountered water cooling of any kind.
(Or ever tried to solder a copper pipe that has water in
it. ) The moving water is very effective at carrying away
heat. Waterblocks don't get hot. In fact one way I test
home made waterblocks is to press it onto a hot electric
burner, holding it in my hand. They stay cool even when
the rest of the burner is glowing cherry red.


I think it's inevitable that such water cooling will lower the
temps. inside the case.


You can think on it and guess and not have any reasonable
way to conclude it, or just measure temps properly as is the
scientific methodology. Others have and know it does result
in hotter running parts besides those with the waterblocks
on them.

More BS, these others must have published such results, or
you would have no way of knowing their results or the methods
used - so where can I find these publications? Or a review of
such testing? (Personally, I expect these "others" are a figment
of your imagination.) {And does that mean when you talked
about "the inevitably higher temp.", you were guessing?}

But I'm not guessing, I have been water cooling PCs and other
devices for a number of years now. And my temperature
measurements are as proper and "scientific" as any. The temp.
at the point I took that measurement (the base of the heatsink),
within the limits of the accuracy of the sensor used, was as I
reported. [the same 32c that Everest gives for the MB sensor]

If the part under the heat sink were able to be cooled by
moving air, as you claim, then it should be able to raise the
temperature of the heatsink in still air. (Of course there is some
air movement in the case I described, just not as much as fans
would provide, so for the purpose of this thread, and in tune
with Kony's warped thinking it's "still air".)

Perhaps, your reply could at least include a site or source for
your "others" claim. (Not holding my breath.)

Luck;
Ken

"kony" wrote in message
...
On 12 Feb 2007 11:06:55 -0800, "
wrote:


Actually none of the existing fanless PSU do well in a
system with no fans, like a board they end up relying on the
passive airflow created by the case fans. The only other
viable alternative is a specially designed, extremely low
power system.


now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .


They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.




Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.




I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?


Failed. They die.


Sounds like more results from "Kony's Imaginary Testing Lab",
to me.

Luck;
Ken

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 12, 8:21 pm, kony wrote:
On 12 Feb 2007 11:06:55 -0800, "

wrote:
Actually none of the existing fanless PSU do well in a
system with no fans, like a board they end up relying on the
passive airflow created by the case fans. The only other
viable alternative is a specially designed, extremely low
power system.

now you can get 300W or 400W regular sized, power supplies with
heatsinks on the outside. I haven't tried them, but surely they use
convection, and not air from case fans, to cool off .

They do quite poorly at cooling themselves, and similarly
run hot with parts that are not rated for higher temps in
most cases. If they have ventilation holes and are mounted
in a typical chassis with any exterior wall (or ducted
towards same effect) fans, they are using that to attain
lower temps and it is a good thing because most are not
built to run passively very well, don't use exotic parts to
withstand the higher temps. In some models they make some
improvements like paralleled switching rectifiers, but then
they don't even change from electrolytic capacitors to solid
so the lifespan is still substantially shorter - but they
don't have to care, because it may still outlive it's
warranty period and they know mission critical systems dont
rely on a passive PC PSU.



Before then, all I found available were little 250w power supplies,
and similarly low wattage "power supply cards". The former, I was
told, needed a fan blowing air over them. The latter, (both available
models) had a noisy transformer issue. Both are now irrelevant thanks
to regular sized properly powered fanless PSUs.

are you referring to the "newer" regular sized ones?

Yes, true passive cooling requires more than just strapping
a heatsink on it. The shame is that even an extremely low
RPM fan would help substantially, and be inaudible, but
they're trying to use marketing to sell the product instead
of best engineering practices.



I haven't tried them yet,
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?

Failed. They die.

what makes/models have you tried?
I googled
thermaltake fanless power supply overheat

I didn't get horror stories. One guy said it worked fine so far(2
days).


But you don't understand, Kony doesn't need to have "tried"
anything, he operates purely from theory and his opinion. I'm
really looking forward to his reply to your questions.

Luck;
Ken

On Feb 13, 12:44 am, "Ken Maltby" wrote:
wrote in message
snip
Regarding power supplies that you've found, haven't cooled off well
without a case fan. How did you detect that? Did you stick a
thermometer in there? What temp did you get - or did it just feel hot?
Did it effect the Volts on the rails - how?

Failed. They die.

what makes/models have you tried?
I googled
thermaltake fanless power supply overheat

I didn't get horror stories. One guy said it worked fine so far(2
days).

But you don't understand, Kony doesn't need to have "tried"
anything, he operates purely from theory and his opinion.

not true

He told you already, he tried them and they died.

I'm
really looking forward to his reply to your questions.


if you were correct then what would you be looking forward to? Sounds
messed up to me. Unless you really think you might be wrong - which
makes what you wrote earlier a bit outrageous.


jh