SSD For Old Computer

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

The motherboard is a TYAN S1854 Trinity 400 Rev. 1.07. The BIOS is Award
Modular v4.51PG. The operating system is Windows XP Professional SP3.



Since this is an old PC, the motherboard does not have SATA ports, so I was
thinking about installing a PCI host controller card (SATA).



I fear that my old BIOS will not recognize the solid state drive, so I was
wondering if this upgrade is even possible. Maybe the host controller card
helps the BIOS in seeing the SSD?



The BIOS I have is very old and TYAN has not posted any newer versions since
the year 2000. Also, Award is no longer in business so I don’t know if a
newer BIOS version exists.



What do the experts think/suggest?



PS: I am fully aware that from the practical point of view it is not worth
spending money in upgrading an 11-year old PC. Nevertheless, I would like
to do it as a personal challenge. I have already installed more memory, a
faster microprocessor, and upgraded the graphics card too. Now I would like
to tackle the hard drive issue, but I do not want to spend money in new
parts only to find out that they won’t work at all because of the BIOS
issue…

--

tb

Tiziano wrote:
I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

The motherboard is a TYAN S1854 Trinity 400 Rev. 1.07. The BIOS is Award
Modular v4.51PG. The operating system is Windows XP Professional SP3.

Since this is an old PC, the motherboard does not have SATA ports, so I was
thinking about installing a PCI host controller card (SATA).

I fear that my old BIOS will not recognize the solid state drive, so I was
wondering if this upgrade is even possible. Maybe the host controller card
helps the BIOS in seeing the SSD?

The BIOS I have is very old and TYAN has not posted any newer versions since
the year 2000. Also, Award is no longer in business so I don’t know if a
newer BIOS version exists.

What do the experts think/suggest?

PS: I am fully aware that from the practical point of view it is not worth
spending money in upgrading an 11-year old PC. Nevertheless, I would like
to do it as a personal challenge. I have already installed more memory, a
faster microprocessor, and upgraded the graphics card too. Now I would like
to tackle the hard drive issue, but I do not want to spend money in new
parts only to find out that they won’t work at all because of the BIOS
issue…


You can get adapters for converting SATA to work with an IDE cable.
So that would be one way to do it.

http://www.startech.com/item/IDE2SAT...Converter.aspx

The manual I have here on disk, for S1854, is dated 2001. The year
2003 is roughly when 48 bit LBA support came out for BIOSes. That
is only an issue if the SSD is bigger than 137GB. And even so, may
not prevent you from using it via the IDE cable.

Using a PCI SATA card might be less of a problem, but you're going
to need a driver for the card.

*******

When you buy a PCI storage card, the card has its own BIOS chip.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/15-102-102-S02?$S640W$

In that picture, the chip on the left, is an 32 pin PLCC flash chip
that holds a BIOS. The code in there, implements Extended INT 0x13
services. And those services, tell the BIOS how to boot from
the card. Sometimes, there is a BIOS entry, that enables
the loading of the BIOS from that chip, but I don't see an
"INT 0x13" or "INT 19" entry in your S1854 user manual.

That particular card, uses a Silicon Image SIL3112. There was
a bug in earlier BIOS code used with those, such that a
1TB sized SATA drive would cause the PC to freeze. There is actually
a flash tool available, to flash update code into the chip.
So the BIOS code in there can be corrected, if there is a
problem.

There are some instances, where a SATA card doesn't work in
an old PC. But those problems seemed to be with 440BX
vintage systems. Your machine might be new enough, for a PCI
storage card to be recognized and work.

The most expensive part of your upgrade is the SSD. If
the project doesn't work out, the expense of the PCI card
will be less than the SSD. You can use the SSD on
a newer system, later. So not all of the hardware you
buy, would be throwaway items.

One other thing you might need, is a power adapter cable
for the SSD. The PCI SATA card kit may include a SATA data
cable, but your power supply may be missing a SATA power
cable. You can use one of these, to convert a Molex power
plug, to provide SATA power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812201002

Note that those are not a "perfect solution", as Molex
has +5V, +12V, while SATA has +3.3V, +5V, +12V. But currently,
there are very few SATA devices operating from 3.3V, so you
don't have anything to worry about today.

Paul

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
wrote:

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

What do the experts think/suggest?

What is the maximum speed you expect this motherboard to support?
My guess: 33 MB/s.

So what do you expect to gain by replacing a HDD by SSD?
(Except from increasing the cost per gigabyte 100 fold or so.)

--
Kind regards,
Gerard Bok

Gerard Bok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
wrote:

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

What do the experts think/suggest?

What is the maximum speed you expect this motherboard to support?
My guess: 33 MB/s.

So what do you expect to gain by replacing a HDD by SSD?
(Except from increasing the cost per gigabyte 100 fold or so.)


The seek time is better on the SSD. And the PCI bus can operate
at 110-120MB/sec or so. The PCI bus is also used to connect
the Northbridge to the Southbridge.

VIA Apollo Pro 133 VT82C694X + VT82C596B

http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/ch...egacy/pro133a/

*******

For fun, I tried the forums for an equivalent motherboard, Asus P3V4X,
and there seem to be problems with add-in cards. So it is possible
that adding a PCI SATA card, won't be that easy. Maybe add the PCI
controller card first, and then buy the SSD if it seems to be working
well.

http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...Language=en-us

The chipset only supports UDMA 66, so using the SATA to IDE adapter,
wouldn't perform as well.

Paul

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Paul wrote:
Tiziano wrote:
I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

The motherboard is a TYAN S1854 Trinity 400 Rev. 1.07. The BIOS is
Award Modular v4.51PG. The operating system is Windows XP
Professional SP3. Since this is an old PC, the motherboard does not have
SATA ports,
so I was thinking about installing a PCI host controller card (SATA).

I fear that my old BIOS will not recognize the solid state drive, so
I was wondering if this upgrade is even possible. Maybe the host
controller card helps the BIOS in seeing the SSD?

The BIOS I have is very old and TYAN has not posted any newer
versions since the year 2000. Also, Award is no longer in business
so I don’t know if a newer BIOS version exists.

What do the experts think/suggest?

PS: I am fully aware that from the practical point of view it is
not worth spending money in upgrading an 11-year old PC. Nevertheless, I
would like to do it as a personal challenge. I have
already installed more memory, a faster microprocessor, and upgraded
the graphics card too. Now I would like to tackle the hard drive
issue, but I do not want to spend money in new parts only to find
out that they won’t work at all because of the BIOS issue…


You can get adapters for converting SATA to work with an IDE cable.
So that would be one way to do it.

http://www.startech.com/item/IDE2SAT...Converter.aspx

The manual I have here on disk, for S1854, is dated 2001. The year
2003 is roughly when 48 bit LBA support came out for BIOSes. That
is only an issue if the SSD is bigger than 137GB. And even so, may
not prevent you from using it via the IDE cable.

Using a PCI SATA card might be less of a problem, but you're going
to need a driver for the card.

*******

When you buy a PCI storage card, the card has its own BIOS chip.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/15-102-102-S02?$S640W$

In that picture, the chip on the left, is an 32 pin PLCC flash chip
that holds a BIOS. The code in there, implements Extended INT 0x13
services. And those services, tell the BIOS how to boot from
the card. Sometimes, there is a BIOS entry, that enables
the loading of the BIOS from that chip, but I don't see an
"INT 0x13" or "INT 19" entry in your S1854 user manual.

That particular card, uses a Silicon Image SIL3112. There was
a bug in earlier BIOS code used with those, such that a
1TB sized SATA drive would cause the PC to freeze. There is actually
a flash tool available, to flash update code into the chip.
So the BIOS code in there can be corrected, if there is a
problem.

There are some instances, where a SATA card doesn't work in
an old PC. But those problems seemed to be with 440BX
vintage systems. Your machine might be new enough, for a PCI
storage card to be recognized and work.

I have and old 440BX board with a Slot-T adapter / Tualatin 1.3GHz / 512MB
ECC SDRAM / XP Pro that I use as a test-bed. It has a SATA PCI card (that
also has an ATA133 PATA connector) in it that works flawlessly as well as an
ultra-wide SCSI PCI card. It's handy as I can use it to check out most any
type of HDD / optical drive. It's set up in an open desktop (non-tower) type
case, easy to access.

The most expensive part of your upgrade is the SSD. If
the project doesn't work out, the expense of the PCI card
will be less than the SSD. You can use the SSD on
a newer system, later. So not all of the hardware you
buy, would be throwaway items.

One other thing you might need, is a power adapter cable
for the SSD. The PCI SATA card kit may include a SATA data
cable, but your power supply may be missing a SATA power
cable. You can use one of these, to convert a Molex power
plug, to provide SATA power.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812201002

Note that those are not a "perfect solution", as Molex
has +5V, +12V, while SATA has +3.3V, +5V, +12V. But currently,
there are very few SATA devices operating from 3.3V, so you
don't have anything to worry about today.

It's my understanding that the 3.3V is only needed for true hot-swapping of
SATA HDDs such as when they're used in a RAID array. I could be wrong
though, I haven't Googled it. :-)
--
Cheers,
Shaun.

"When we dream.... that's just our brains defragmenting" G Jackson.

~misfit~ wrote:


Note that those are not a "perfect solution", as Molex
has +5V, +12V, while SATA has +3.3V, +5V, +12V. But currently,
there are very few SATA devices operating from 3.3V, so you
don't have anything to worry about today.

It's my understanding that the 3.3V is only needed for true hot-swapping of
SATA HDDs such as when they're used in a RAID array. I could be wrong
though, I haven't Googled it. :-)

There are some SATA flash drives that use 3.3V. Those are the only
ones I've see comments about. I've noticed some reviews on Newegg,
where the drive wasn't getting power, and it was because the person
was using one of those Molex adapters (which doesn't have 3.3V).

http://www.microsatacables.com/

It seems to be a micro SATA thing, at least in this example.

http://ssd.toshiba.com/SSD-product-guide.html

Paul

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:49:03 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Gerard Bok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
wrote:

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

What do the experts think/suggest?

What is the maximum speed you expect this motherboard to support?
My guess: 33 MB/s.

So what do you expect to gain by replacing a HDD by SSD?
(Except from increasing the cost per gigabyte 100 fold or so.)


The seek time is better on the SSD.

That's true.

And the PCI bus can operate at 110-120MB/sec or so.

The PCI bus might, but does an 11 year old motherboard ?

Maybe add the PCI controller card first, and then buy the
SSD if it seems to be working well.

I doubt that. Without a bootable media attached to the PCI
controller it is very hard to test whether it would boot if such
a media where attached ;-)

Maybe buy a CompactFlash to IDE converter ?

--
Kind regards,
Gerard Bok

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:48:43 GMT, (Gerard
Bok) wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:49:03 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Gerard Bok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
wrote:

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

What do the experts think/suggest?

.... that an 11 year old motherboard (and PSU, etc) are at
end of expected lifespan, that it makes no sense to upgrade
at this point unless you had the intended upgrade parts
lying around unused and they were of little value (unlike an
SSD of any reasonable capacity).




What is the maximum speed you expect this motherboard to support?
My guess: 33 MB/s.

66 MB/s



So what do you expect to gain by replacing a HDD by SSD?
(Except from increasing the cost per gigabyte 100 fold or so.)


The seek time is better on the SSD.

That's true.

And the PCI bus can operate at 110-120MB/sec or so.

The PCI bus might, but does an 11 year old motherboard ?

That Via southbridge did not have very good PCI bus
performance, especially if other PCI cards were installed.
I'd expect a peak sustained throughput of about 85MB/s, or
less when using a PCI sound or video card.



Maybe add the PCI controller card first, and then buy the
SSD if it seems to be working well.

I doubt that. Without a bootable media attached to the PCI
controller it is very hard to test whether it would boot if such
a media where attached ;-)

Maybe buy a CompactFlash to IDE converter ?

Just for testing or for use? For regular use it would be
much slower than an SSD. For testing the OP might be able
to borrow someone's SATA HDD, or buy the SSD from someplace
with a good return policy so at worst if it doesn't work he
is out only (a typical average rate for refund is...) 15% of
purchase price plus return shipping cost.

On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:01:14 -0400, kony wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:48:43 GMT, (Gerard
Bok) wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:49:03 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Gerard Bok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
wrote:

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

Bad quote ;-)
I do have 11 year old PC's around but it wasn't my idea to
'upgrade' them, using SSD ;-)

Maybe buy a CompactFlash to IDE converter ?

Just for testing or for use? For regular use it would be
much slower than an SSD.

On second thought that wasn't such a smart advice indeed :-)
Not with speed in mind, that is.
There are CF cards marked '133' out there, but that doesn't mean
133 MBps (rather: 133 times floppy speed.) Sorry.

--
Kind regards,
Gerard Bok

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 13:15:34 GMT, (Gerard
Bok) wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jul 2010 13:01:14 -0400, kony wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 17:48:43 GMT, (Gerard
Bok) wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:49:03 -0400, Paul
wrote:

Gerard Bok wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:42:48 -0500, "Tiziano"
wrote:

I have this 11-year old PC and I am thinking about upgrading it by
installing an SSD (SATA).

Bad quote ;-)
I do have 11 year old PC's around but it wasn't my idea to
'upgrade' them, using SSD ;-)

Maybe buy a CompactFlash to IDE converter ?

Just for testing or for use? For regular use it would be
much slower than an SSD.

On second thought that wasn't such a smart advice indeed :-)
Not with speed in mind, that is.
There are CF cards marked '133' out there, but that doesn't mean
133 MBps (rather: 133 times floppy speed.) Sorry.


There is a sale right now on a 32GB OCZ Onyx for $60 after
rebate, at that price point I might change my mind about
upgrading an aging PC with an SSD... though of course it is
slower than many but still leaps better than the jmicron
controller based SSDs of a couple years ago.

Problem is, older PCs probably aren't running Win7 and older
OS don't have TRIM support so the performance will degrade
once all blocks have had data written to them... though it
may still easily be faster than the old HDD it replaces or a
new HDD.

http://www.mwave.com/mwave/SKUSearch...iteria=BA37393