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#11
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"Kevin" wrote in message ... Got it working-- not exactly sure what the problem was. It was either a) I needed to run Ghost from floppy, or b) I needed to bring up the boot menu in BIOS and explicitly tell it to boot from the IDE drive (even though that was the only option). A few bios do get a bit confused when the drive they are configured to boot from goes away, is missing. You basically just need to specify the drive to boot from again. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions & ideas. - Kevin "Kevin" wrote in message ... The boot disk for my XP system has been having a number of bad sector problems lately, so I decided to try to clone it to a new drive. I installed a 2nd drive, formatted it, and used Norton Ghost 2003 to do a clone of the boot (C drive to it. When the clone is complete, I power off, swap the cable and set the jumpers, but get a "boot failure from previous device" error on startup (after BIOS screen but before Windows). I can verify that the clone worked by booting off the original drive with the clone as a slave-- all the files seem to be there. What might I be doing wrong? Thanks, Kevin |
#12
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"Rod Speed" wrote in message ... "Kevin" wrote in message ... The boot disk for my XP system has been having a number of bad sector problems lately, so I decided to try to clone it to a new drive. I installed a 2nd drive, formatted it, and used Norton Ghost 2003 to do a clone of the boot (C drive to it. When the clone is complete, I power off, swap the cable and set the jumpers, but get a "boot failure from previous device" error on startup (after BIOS screen but before Windows). I can verify that the clone worked by booting off the original drive with the clone as a slave-- all the files seem to be there. What might I be doing wrong? You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? |
#13
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"Bob Davis" wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote : You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. It's more complicated than that. The "proper boot device" is established by the BIOS's boot sequence and the "active" partition on the 1st HD in that boot sequence, not by having successfully booted for the 1st time in isolation. A clone booted for the 1st time with the "parent" in view continues to function (in my experience), but it needs the continued presence of its "parent" to do so. This seems to be a feature added my Microsoft to thwart copying of it OSes, starting with the WinNT/Win2K/WinXP family of OSes. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? No. Under WinXP, you can do this with no problem as long as the new OS (the one in drive D hasn't been loaded and started. You can start up the old OS all you want, and it can see the files in drive D: with no problem. The problem appears when the new clone OS in drive D: is started up with the old OS in drive C: visible to it. Somehow the new clone recognizes its "parent" and that it's a "child" in this world. But if it starts up in isolation for the 1st time that it's started, it decides it's a different beast and becomes an "adult". Microsoft doesn't document this behavior and it offers no method (such as initial isolation) to get around it, and the MS Professional Volunteers in the MS newsgroups don't know much if anything about it. At least they seem to avoid writing about it. The MVPs even get quite abusive and hostile if you so much as say that running two installations of one OS CD in *the same machine* is legal. Obviously, MS has them toeing the company line when it comes to gray areas in its EULA. I expect that cloning Longhorn will be even more difficult. *TimDaniels* |
#14
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"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message ... "Bob Davis" wrote: "Rod Speed" wrote : You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. It's more complicated than that. The "proper boot device" is established by the BIOS's boot sequence and the "active" partition on the 1st HD in that boot sequence, not by having successfully booted for the 1st time in isolation. A clone booted for the 1st time with the "parent" in view continues to function (in my experience), but it needs the continued presence of its "parent" to do so. This seems to be a feature added my Microsoft to thwart copying of it OSes, starting with the WinNT/Win2K/WinXP family of OSes. I've booted XP successfully with a clone in the mobile rack, marked by XP as drive G:, both with SATA and PATA drives as the main boot device. The reason I'm apparently avoiding trouble is that I always boot with C: (system) as the drive that made the clone (G. The actual cloned drive (G is never used to boot from. I assume, therefore, that the crux of the issue is to make sure the new clone isn't the new C: and the "parent" (source of the clone) isn't in the system when booted. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? No. Under WinXP, you can do this with no problem as long as the new OS (the one in drive D hasn't been loaded and started. You can start up the old OS all you want, and it can see the files in drive D: with no problem. The problem appears when the new clone OS in drive D: is started up with the old OS in drive C: visible to it. Somehow the new clone recognizes its "parent" and that it's a "child" in this world. But if it starts up in isolation for the 1st time that it's started, it decides it's a different beast and becomes an "adult". This is a bit confusing. By this description, my situation should be problematic (see above), but I've never had a problem. If the drive in the mobile rack (clone) is in the system, it will boot as any other drive attached to the system unless it is the first time the OS has seen that particular device, in which case XP sees it as new hardware and "installs" it. From then on, even after a new cloning, XP sees that drive as G: and the system boots normally. I only boot with the clone in the system if I need to retreive specific files, as when I delete something accidentally from C: and have no backup elsewhere, which I usually do. Now that I've installed a USB mobile rack I can insert the cloned drive (G and it is instantly recognized, something I couldn't do before with the old IDE-type interface, which needed to be inserted when powered down and rebooted. I assume the USB type of arrangement would never be a problem since it isn't in the system when booted. Microsoft doesn't document this behavior and it offers no method (such as initial isolation) to get around it, and the MS Professional Volunteers in the MS newsgroups don't know much if anything about it. At least they seem to avoid writing about it. The MVPs even get quite abusive and hostile if you so much as say that running two installations of one OS CD in *the same machine* is legal. Obviously, MS has them toeing the company line when it comes to gray areas in its EULA. I expect that cloning Longhorn will be even more difficult. I do clones for backup purposes only, and I see no more ethical problem approaching backups in this manner than using MS's own backup program. The fact that I have four or five clones with the OS in each that I rotate for cloning shouldn't violate the spirit of the EULA, if perhaps the letter thereof. All cloning activity is performed on one machine, which is the one for which the OS is licensed, and none are ever run on any other computers. So what could possibly be wrong with that practice? |
#15
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"Bob Davis" wrote:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote: "Bob Davis" wrote: "Rod Speed" wrote : You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. It's more complicated than that. The "proper boot device" is established by the BIOS's boot sequence and the "active" partition on the 1st HD in that boot sequence, not by having successfully booted for the 1st time in isolation. A clone booted for the 1st time with the "parent" in view continues to function (in my experience), but it needs the continued presence of its "parent" to do so. This seems to be a feature added my Microsoft to thwart copying of it OSes, starting with the WinNT/Win2K/WinXP family of OSes. I've booted XP successfully with a clone in the mobile rack, marked by XP as drive G:, both with SATA and PATA drives as the main boot device. The reason I'm apparently avoiding trouble is that I always boot with C: (system) as the drive that made the clone (G. The actual cloned drive (G is never used to boot from. Yes. I assume, therefore, that the crux of the issue is to make sure the new clone isn't the new C: and the "parent" (source of the clone) isn't in the system when booted. I'm not sure what "the issue" is, but the crux of cloning a system and assuring that the clone will be bootable in the future alone (such as when it is used as a replacement for a failed hard disk) is to boot it alone when it is booted for the 1st time. Note that "booted" does not mean "recognized and included in part of the system as a file structure". "Booted" here means having a Master Boot Record that takes control from the BIOS and which then passes control on to the boot sector of the "active" partition where the ntldr program loads the system that resides there. If the old system was drive C:, the clone system will also call itself C: if it is loaded. As drive C: it will find and name other drives in the system with other letters. The old Local Disk C: may become Local Disk D:, but as long as no shortcuts in the loaded system refer drive letters other than C:, it doesn't matter. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? No. Under WinXP, you can do this with no problem as long as the new OS (the one in drive D hasn't been loaded and started. You can start up the old OS all you want, and it can see the files in drive D: with no problem. The problem appears when the new clone OS in drive D: is started up with the old OS in drive C: visible to it. Somehow the new clone recognizes its "parent" and that it's a "child" in this world. But if it starts up in isolation for the 1st time that it's started, it decides it's a different beast and becomes an "adult". This is a bit confusing. By this description, my situation should be problematic (see above), but I've never had a problem. No. In your system, you start up the cloned system, not the clone system. The clone system does not "boot" - it merely sits there and becomes part of the old cloned system as an added file structure in the form of another "Local Disk". If the drive in the mobile rack (clone) is in the system, it will boot as any other drive attached to the system unless it is the first time the OS has seen that particular device, in which case XP sees it as new hardware and "installs" it. From then on, even after a new cloning, XP sees that drive as G: and the system boots normally. You misunderstand the term "boot". "Boot" does not mean being included in a loaded system as another Local Disk having an accessible file structure (e.g. D: drive). "Boot" means to "load itself in stages, starting from practically nothing". A "booted" system is a system which has loaded itself, starting with the exe- cution of its own partition's boot sector. A "booted" hard drive is a hard drive which has had control passed to its Master Boot Record by the BIOS and which in turn passes control to the boot sector of the its "active" partition. Since this "active" partition's boot.ini file might designate that its ntldr program load a system on some other partition on any hard drive in the system, the loading of that system is not "booting" per se, but its loading is part of the process which began with "booting", so sloppy terminology includes that loading as part of the "boot" process - which began with the CPU passing control to the BIOS when the CPU felt the power come on. Since the clone system (e.g. D: drive) does not get loaded nor partiticipate in the boot process in your scenario, it is not "booted" nor is it "loaded". It just become accessible as a file structure that contains data. I only boot with the clone in the system if I need to retreive specific files, as when I delete something accidentally from C: and have no backup elsewhere, which I usually do. Now that I've installed a USB mobile rack I can insert the cloned drive (G and it is instantly recognized, something I couldn't do before with the old IDE-type interface, which needed to be inserted when powered down and rebooted. Be careful with your terminology. "Booted" does not mean "accessible". You have only booted the old (i.e. cloned) system, not the (new) clone system. I assume the USB type of arrangement would never be a problem since it isn't in the system when booted. The external USB drive does not contain a bootable system, i.e. it cannot be booted, it cannot be used as the system drive. It can only act as another Local Disk with a file structure. If you have been using an IDE drive in a mobile rack in the same way, you have not ever booted from the drive containing the clone. Microsoft doesn't document this behavior and it offers no method (such as initial isolation) to get around it, and the MS Professional Volunteers in the MS newsgroups don't know much if anything about it. At least they seem to avoid writing about it. The MVPs even get quite abusive and hostile if you so much as say that running two installations of one OS CD in *the same machine* is legal. Obviously, MS has them toeing the company line when it comes to gray areas in its EULA. I expect that cloning Longhorn will be even more difficult. I do clones for backup purposes only, and I see no more ethical problem approaching backups in this manner than using MS's own backup program. It is not the cloning of a system as an archive that MS seems to object to. It's the cloning of a system with a Master Boot Record and boot sector and its boot files (e.g. ntldr, boot.ini, NTDETECT.com, etc.) on an IDE hard drive so that it is bootable as a system drive that MS doesn't like. The fact that I have four or five clones with the OS in each that I rotate for cloning shouldn't violate the spirit of the EULA, if perhaps the letter thereof. In public, MS argues that the letter of the EULA is the spirit of the EULA. Privately, I doubt that it cares about multiple installations derived from a single installation CD existing on a single PC. After all, WinXP won't work on another PC unless that PC is identical in hardware, and only one copy can work at any one time, anyway. All cloning activity is performed on one machine, which is the one for which the OS is licensed, and none are ever run on any other computers. So what could possibly be wrong with that practice? Don't ask that question in a microsoft.* newsgroup unless you're prepared to argue with half a dozen Microsoft MVPs and their shills for a week. *TimDaniels* |
#16
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"Bob Davis" wrote in message news:GejJd.209$1X.95@lakeread07... "Rod Speed" wrote in message ... "Kevin" wrote in message ... The boot disk for my XP system has been having a number of bad sector problems lately, so I decided to try to clone it to a new drive. I installed a 2nd drive, formatted it, and used Norton Ghost 2003 to do a clone of the boot (C drive to it. When the clone is complete, I power off, swap the cable and set the jumpers, but get a "boot failure from previous device" error on startup (after BIOS screen but before Windows). I can verify that the clone worked by booting off the original drive with the clone as a slave-- all the files seem to be there. What might I be doing wrong? You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? Yes. |
#17
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"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message ... "Bob Davis" wrote: "Rod Speed" wrote : You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. It's more complicated than that. Nope, he's right on the reason it gets its tiny little 'brain' scambled. The "proper boot device" is established by the BIOS's boot sequence and the "active" partition on the 1st HD in that boot sequence, not by having successfully booted for the 1st time in isolation. Thats just plain wrong with the boot after XP has got involved in the boot. If your story was correct, you wouldnt be able to boot the clone by ensuring that the original wasnt visible on the first boot after the clone, and be able to plug the original back in again after XP has claimed to detect new hardware and been allowed to reboot, and have it still boot off the clone entirely in the sense that you can unplug the original again and have it still boot fine. A clone booted for the 1st time with the "parent" in view continues to function (in my experience), but it needs the continued presence of its "parent" to do so. Not if the original isnt visible on the first boot of the clone. This seems to be a feature added my Microsoft to thwart copying of it OSes, starting with the WinNT/Win2K/WinXP family of OSes. Nope, its just a quirk of the way that family keeps track of drives, so you can still boot from a particular physical drive after you have moved it around on the controllers etc. Thats essentially what the drive's ID is for and that process has a problem with a clone of the drive when the ID is also cloned and so there are now two physical drives with the same ID. It can sort that out if it cant see the original on the first boot after the clone has been done, and so it cant be a deliberate attempt at preventing cloning, because it wouldnt be hard to keep track of the physical drive detail like the hardware serial number as well so it would be obvious that the XP drive ID is on a different physical drive because the drive hardware serial number has changed etc. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? No. Under WinXP, you can do this with no problem as long as the new OS (the one in drive D hasn't been loaded and started. You can start up the old OS all you want, and it can see the files in drive D: with no problem. The problem appears when the new clone OS in drive D: is started up with the old OS in drive C: visible to it. Somehow the new clone recognizes its "parent" and that it's a "child" in this world. But if it starts up in isolation for the 1st time that it's started, it decides it's a different beast and becomes an "adult". Microsoft doesn't document this behavior and it offers no method (such as initial isolation) to get around it, and the MS Professional Volunteers in the MS newsgroups don't know much if anything about it. At least they seem to avoid writing about it. The MVPs even get quite abusive and hostile if you so much as say that running two installations of one OS CD in *the same machine* is legal. Obviously, MS has them toeing the company line when it comes to gray areas in its EULA. Mindless conspiracy theory. I expect that cloning Longhorn will be even more difficult. Wanna bet ? It hasnt changed over the NT/2K/XP sequence while MS did introduce the validation system with XP. |
#18
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"Timothy Daniels" wrote in message ... "Bob Davis" wrote: "Timothy Daniels" wrote: "Bob Davis" wrote: "Rod Speed" wrote : You basically have to unplug the original drive for the first boot after the drive has been cloned and boot off the copy. XP will claim to have detected new hardware and ask to be allowed to reboot. Once you have allowed that, you can put the original drive back in the system if you want, if you say want to use it for video capture etc. If XP can see both the original and the copy during the first boot after the original has been cloned, it gets seriously confused, even if you boot off the copy and it uses files off the original for the boot. This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. It's more complicated than that. The "proper boot device" is established by the BIOS's boot sequence and the "active" partition on the 1st HD in that boot sequence, not by having successfully booted for the 1st time in isolation. A clone booted for the 1st time with the "parent" in view continues to function (in my experience), but it needs the continued presence of its "parent" to do so. This seems to be a feature added my Microsoft to thwart copying of it OSes, starting with the WinNT/Win2K/WinXP family of OSes. I've booted XP successfully with a clone in the mobile rack, marked by XP as drive G:, both with SATA and PATA drives as the main boot device. The reason I'm apparently avoiding trouble is that I always boot with C: (system) as the drive that made the clone (G. The actual cloned drive (G is never used to boot from. Yes. I assume, therefore, that the crux of the issue is to make sure the new clone isn't the new C: and the "parent" (source of the clone) isn't in the system when booted. I'm not sure what "the issue" is, but the crux of cloning a system and assuring that the clone will be bootable in the future alone (such as when it is used as a replacement for a failed hard disk) is to boot it alone when it is booted for the 1st time. Note that "booted" does not mean "recognized and included in part of the system as a file structure". "Booted" here means having a Master Boot Record that takes control from the BIOS and which then passes control on to the boot sector of the "active" partition where the ntldr program loads the system that resides there. If the old system was drive C:, the clone system will also call itself C: if it is loaded. As drive C: it will find and name other drives in the system with other letters. The old Local Disk C: may become Local Disk D:, but as long as no shortcuts in the loaded system refer drive letters other than C:, it doesn't matter. With my old Win98SE machine I cloned C: to D: once per week and left D: in the system at all times. It would then seem that you could still do this with XP since the hardware configuration will not have changed. Does this make sense? No. Under WinXP, you can do this with no problem as long as the new OS (the one in drive D hasn't been loaded and started. You can start up the old OS all you want, and it can see the files in drive D: with no problem. The problem appears when the new clone OS in drive D: is started up with the old OS in drive C: visible to it. Somehow the new clone recognizes its "parent" and that it's a "child" in this world. But if it starts up in isolation for the 1st time that it's started, it decides it's a different beast and becomes an "adult". This is a bit confusing. By this description, my situation should be problematic (see above), but I've never had a problem. No. In your system, you start up the cloned system, not the clone system. The clone system does not "boot" - it merely sits there and becomes part of the old cloned system as an added file structure in the form of another "Local Disk". If the drive in the mobile rack (clone) is in the system, it will boot as any other drive attached to the system unless it is the first time the OS has seen that particular device, in which case XP sees it as new hardware and "installs" it. From then on, even after a new cloning, XP sees that drive as G: and the system boots normally. You misunderstand the term "boot". "Boot" does not mean being included in a loaded system as another Local Disk having an accessible file structure (e.g. D: drive). "Boot" means to "load itself in stages, starting from practically nothing". A "booted" system is a system which has loaded itself, starting with the exe- cution of its own partition's boot sector. A "booted" hard drive is a hard drive which has had control passed to its Master Boot Record by the BIOS and which in turn passes control to the boot sector of the its "active" partition. Since this "active" partition's boot.ini file might designate that its ntldr program load a system on some other partition on any hard drive in the system, the loading of that system is not "booting" per se, but its loading is part of the process which began with "booting", so sloppy terminology includes that loading as part of the "boot" process - which began with the CPU passing control to the BIOS when the CPU felt the power come on. Since the clone system (e.g. D: drive) does not get loaded nor partiticipate in the boot process in your scenario, it is not "booted" nor is it "loaded". It just become accessible as a file structure that contains data. I only boot with the clone in the system if I need to retreive specific files, as when I delete something accidentally from C: and have no backup elsewhere, which I usually do. Now that I've installed a USB mobile rack I can insert the cloned drive (G and it is instantly recognized, something I couldn't do before with the old IDE-type interface, which needed to be inserted when powered down and rebooted. Be careful with your terminology. "Booted" does not mean "accessible". You have only booted the old (i.e. cloned) system, not the (new) clone system. I assume the USB type of arrangement would never be a problem since it isn't in the system when booted. The external USB drive does not contain a bootable system, i.e. it cannot be booted, it cannot be used as the system drive. It can only act as another Local Disk with a file structure. If you have been using an IDE drive in a mobile rack in the same way, you have not ever booted from the drive containing the clone. Microsoft doesn't document this behavior and it offers no method (such as initial isolation) to get around it, and the MS Professional Volunteers in the MS newsgroups don't know much if anything about it. At least they seem to avoid writing about it. The MVPs even get quite abusive and hostile if you so much as say that running two installations of one OS CD in *the same machine* is legal. Obviously, MS has them toeing the company line when it comes to gray areas in its EULA. I expect that cloning Longhorn will be even more difficult. I do clones for backup purposes only, and I see no more ethical problem approaching backups in this manner than using MS's own backup program. It is not the cloning of a system as an archive that MS seems to object to. It's the cloning of a system with a Master Boot Record and boot sector and its boot files (e.g. ntldr, boot.ini, NTDETECT.com, etc.) on an IDE hard drive so that it is bootable as a system drive that MS doesn't like. The fact that I have four or five clones with the OS in each that I rotate for cloning shouldn't violate the spirit of the EULA, if perhaps the letter thereof. In public, MS argues that the letter of the EULA is the spirit of the EULA. Privately, I doubt that it cares about multiple installations derived from a single installation CD existing on a single PC. After all, WinXP won't work on another PC unless that PC is identical in hardware, Thats not true of the versions of XP that dont require validation. and only one copy can work at any one time, anyway. All cloning activity is performed on one machine, which is the one for which the OS is licensed, and none are ever run on any other computers. So what could possibly be wrong with that practice? Don't ask that question in a microsoft.* newsgroup unless you're prepared to argue with half a dozen Microsoft MVPs and their shills for a week. |
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"Rod Speed" wrote:
"Timothy Daniels" wrote: "Bob Davis" wrote: This is very interesting. For years I've heard that you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects. What you've said hear makes it more clear that if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. It's more complicated than that. Nope, he's right on the reason it gets its tiny little 'brain' scambled. Bob Davis said: "you can't/shouldn't have a clone of XP running together with the normal boot drive housing the OS, although I've booted many times with a clone attached with no adverse effects." One can certainly continue to boot the old OS with the new OS in the system and visible to the old OS - and do it indefinitely - with no advers effects. The problem arises when the new OS (the clone) is booted for the 1st time and the old OS (the "parent") is visible to it during that 1st boot. IOW, it's when the clone is loaded and started for the 1st time that is critical, not just being visible as a file structure (as it would be if the "parent" were always the OS that was booted). This you and I know, but it was not what the OP wrote. The "proper boot device" is established by the BIOS's boot sequence and the "active" partition on the 1st HD in that boot sequence, not by having successfully booted for the 1st time in isolation. Thats just plain wrong with the boot after XP has got involved in the boot. This was a comment on the term "proper boot device". The "boot device" is, indeed, established by the boot order in the BIOS and the 1st device in that order that is capable of booting. In the case of hard drives, the "active" partition on the selected HD is expected to have a boot sector and the files boot.ini, ntldr, ntdetect.com, and perhaps others. The boot.ini contains the menu of partitions from which ntldr is to load the OS from. In a clone, the boot.ini will be exactly as it was in the "parent", and when booted in isolation, the clone will behave exactly like the parent did because its boot.ini is exactly like its "parent's" boot.ini . Presumably, the "parent's" boot.ini had as a default an instruction like "boot from the 1st HD in the boot order, and look in its 1st partition for the OS". This boot.ini would be coded something like this: [boot loader] timeout=0 default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S [operating systems] multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS="Windo ws XP" /fastdetect This says that the only optional OS is the same as the default, and both are to be found on the 1st HD in the HD boot order (i.e. at relative position 0), and the OS is in the 1st partition of that HD. Since the timeout is set to 0, no menu will appear on the screen and ntldr will attempt to load the default OS. Now if you have multiple clones in multiple HDs, such as I have, you can have the boot.ini file in partition 2 of HD 1 specify the OS in partition 4 of HD 3 to load. IOW, the boot.ini doesn't have to be in the partition that contains the OS. It can specify *any* partition on *any* HD in the system. If your story was correct, you wouldnt be able to boot the clone by ensuring that the original wasnt visible on the first boot after the clone, and be able to plug the original back in again after XP has claimed to detect new hardware and been allowed to reboot, and have it still boot off the clone entirely in the sense that you can unplug the original again and have it still boot fine. A clone booted for the 1st time with the "parent" in view continues to function (in my experience), but it needs the continued presence of its "parent" to do so. Not if the original isnt visible on the first boot of the clone. Of course! That's the point of the entire discussion. *TimDaniels* |
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"Rod Speed" wrote:
"Bob Davis" wrote: .........if booted with a new clone with the original boot drive attached, as described above, the OS may think the old drive is the boot device since the ID matches. However, after the new drive is booted, new hardware installed, and the drive's ID established as the proper boot device, all is well. Thus, once this first boot with a new copy is accomplished without the original attached, this original can be subsequently run in the system with no ill effects. Ignoring the term "proper boot device", and assuming that the "new hardware installed" is the new HD itself, it doesn't explain what causes the apparent "binding" of the 2 OSes if the clone sees the "parent" on 1st boot. In trying that very scenario, I got inconsistent results, but on one occasion, I found that the clone that had been started for the 1st time with the "parent" visible had its My Documents folder pointing to files in its "parent". The clone ran OK, but if I removed the "parent", I could no longer access the files in My Documents. At that point, I concluded that Rod Speed's warning about not starting the clone for the 1st time in the presence of its "parent" had some truth. But neither of us knows what the mechanism is that causes it and how making the "parent" absent avoids it. *TimDaniels* |
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