Boot.ini question

"Rod Speed" wrote:
But you shouldnt have a boot.ini on these other two
drives, that just confuses the issue since you dont
know which boot.ini is actually being used at boot time.


You're not paying attention to what is clearly on the
page. The comments in the boot.ini file's options
that are displayed on the screen during bootup tell
which boot.ini file, and thus which HD, has control.
In the boot.ini contents below, for instance:

boot.ini file in 40GB HD:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS=
"(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINDOWS=
"(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(1)\WINDOWS=
"(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1" /fastdetect

the boot.ini files 3 options clearly state that
"(40GB part 1 boot.ini)", meaning that it is on the
40GB HD.

*TimDaniels*

"Rod Speed" wrote:
You cant do it that way either. You should be leaving the 80G drive
with the only boot.ini at the top of the hard drive boot order list, so
you can be sure that that drive is being booted by the bios.


That is clearly being done. First, with the 80GB HD at
the head of the HD boot order, each of the 3 HDs were booted.
Then with the 80GB HD remaining at the head of the HD boot
order and the order of the other 2 HDs reversed, all 3 HDs
were again booted.

Next, with the 40GB HD at the head of the HD boot order,
each of the 3 HDs were booted. Then with the 40GB HD
remaining at the head of the HD boot order and the order
of the other 2 HDs reversed, all 3 HDs were again booted.

Next, with the 120GB HD at the head of the HD boot order,
each of the 3 HDs were booted. Then with the 120GB HD
remaining at the head of the HD boot order and the order
of the other 2 HDs reversed, all 3 HDs were again booted.

You can see, if you study the results, that the HD that
contained the OS that got booted was always the one
corresponding to the value of rdisk(n), where "n" was the
displacement from the head of the HD boot order.

*TimDaniels*








THEN you should swap JUST the 40G and the 120G
drives in the boot order list, while keeping them at
lower priority in the boot order list than the 80G drive
and see what drive gets booted when you select each
of the boot.ini entrys with rdisk values of 1 and 2.

Each of the three entries in the boot.ini-derived boot menu was selected
and the OS that loaded was recorded. A file with a name identifying the
HD it was on was put on the desktop of each OS in partition #1 of each HD
to aid in
identifying the HD. Since the boot.ini files contained entries
only for the partition #1 on each HD, the experiment was a specific test
for the meaning of the "rdisk()" parameter.

Then the order of the 2nd and 3rd HD in the hard drive boot order was
reversed, and the above experiment was repeated.

RESULTS

HD boot order: 80GB, 40GB, 120GB
menu option selected: booted:
(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1 80GB, part 1
(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1 40GB, part 1
(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1 120GB, part 1

HD boot order: 80GB, 120GB, 40GB
menu option selected: booted:
(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1 80GB, part 1
(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1 120GB, part 1
(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1 40GB, part 1

HD boot order: 40GB, 80GB, 120GB
menu option selected: booted:
(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1 40GB, part 1
(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1 80GB, part 1
(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1 120GB, part 1

HD boot order: 40GB, 120GB, 80GB
menue option selected: booted:
(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1 40GB, part 1
(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1 120GB, part 1
(40GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1 80GB, part 1

HD boot order: 120GB, 40GB, 80GB
menue option selected: booted:
(120GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1 120GB, part 1
(120GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1 40GB, part 1
(120GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1 80GB, part 1

HD boot order: 120GB, 80GB, 40GB
menue option selected: booted:
(120GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1 120GB, part 1
(120GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1 80GB, part 1
(120GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1 40GB, part 1

DISCUSSION

The "rdisk()" parameter was seen to always correspond to the
position of the hard drive in the Phoenix Tech BIOS's hard drive
boot order through all permutations of the hard drive boot order.

No it wasnt, you confused the issue with the SIIG IDE PCI controller card.

Whether this correspondence is found in other BIOSes is unknown by this
investigator, but since the Phoenix Tech's BIOSes are used by several
large manufacturers of PCs, it is probably a very common meaning for
"rdisk()" among modern PCs running a Microsoft Windows operating system.

Fraid not, and phoenix bios are the least commonly used of the 3
majors. And most dont have their drives on a PCI controller either.

*TimDaniels*, Investigator

******, actually.

"Rod Speed" wrote:
No it wasnt, you confused the issue with the SIIG IDE PCI
controller card.

Fraid not, and phoenix bios are the least commonly used
of the 3 majors. And most dont have their drives on a PCI
controller either.


You grasp at straws and try to change the subject since
your statements about the meaning of rdisk were shown to
be WRONG.

*TimDaniels*

Timothy Daniels wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Timothy Daniels wrote

ABSTRACT

This experiment shows that the Phoenix Technologies BIOS
exposes the hard drive boot order to ntldr such that the para-
meter "rdisk(x)" in the boot.ini file corresponds to the hard
drive having a displacement "x" from the head of the hard drive
boot order, where "x" is a positive integer starting with 0.

No it doesnt.

HARDWARE

Dell Dimension XPS-R450 with a Phoenix Tech BIOS,
(3) Maxtor DiamondMaxPlus 9 hard drives connected to

(1) SIIG IDE PCI controller card.

That alone is a problem. You dont get the effect you
are claiming with drives on the motherboard IDE ports.

Bet that is the real reason you have ****ed up so spectacularly.

You're grasping at straws.

Nope, there's a reason MS doesnt mention the hard
drive boot order in the documentation of the ARC path
naming convention and neither does anyone else.

The PCI card is just the controller, and all it does is connect the hard
drives to the BIOS.

Its more complicated than that with the ARC path naming convention.

The BIOS controls the hard drive boot order and presents them to ntldr
and the OS.

But you dont get the effect you are claiming
with drives on the motherboard controller.

Timothy Daniels wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Timothy Daniels wrote

ABSTRACT

This experiment shows that the Phoenix Technologies BIOS
exposes the hard drive boot order to ntldr such that the para-
meter "rdisk(x)" in the boot.ini file corresponds to the hard
drive having a displacement "x" from the head of the hard drive
boot order, where "x" is a positive integer starting with 0.

No it doesnt.

HARDWARE

Dell Dimension XPS-R450 with a Phoenix Tech BIOS,
(3) Maxtor DiamondMaxPlus 9 hard drives connected to
(1) SIIG IDE PCI controller card.

HARD DRIVE CONFIGURATION

IDE channel 0, Master - 80GB hard drive
IDE channel 0, Slave - 40GB hard drive
IDE channel 1, Master - 120GB hard drive

Each HD has a Master Boot Record (MBR),
each HD has as its partition #1 a Primary partition
that
1) has a Boot Sector,
2) is marked "Active", and which
3) contains the boot files ntldr, boot.ini, and ntdetect.com .

SOFTWARE CONFIGURATION

Microsoft WindowsXP Pro installed in partition #1 of each HD.

boot.ini file in 80GB HD:

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(1)\WINDOWS=
"(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 0, part 1" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(1)\WINDOWS=
"(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 1, part 1" /fastdetect
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(1)\WINDOWS=
"(80GB part 1 boot.ini) rdisk 2, part 1" /fastdetect

That boot.ini is just plain wrong on the comments on each
entry, they arent all for the 80G drive, there is one for
each physical drive because the rdisk value varies.

Read again.

No point, it stays wrong no matter how often its read.

The comments in the boot options indicate on which HD the boot.ini file
resides.

There is no need for that on every boot option line.

Read on, and you'll see that there is one boot.ini file on each HD,

And that is wrong too, there shouldnt be to simplify the test config.

and the boot.ini file on each HD says in the comments which HD it's on.

There is no need for that on every boot option line in the boot.ini

This is so one can see during boot-up which boot.ini file is being used

There shouldnt be more than one boot.ini

and thus which HD got control from the BIOS.
"(80GB part 1 boot.ini)" means that the boot.ini file is on the 80GB HD.

See above.

Timothy Daniels wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But you shouldnt have a boot.ini on these other two
drives, that just confuses the issue since you dont
know which boot.ini is actually being used at boot time.

You're not paying attention to what is clearly on the page.

Wrong, as always.

The comments in the boot.ini file's options that are displayed on the
screen during bootup tell
which boot.ini file, and thus which HD, has control.
In the boot.ini contents below, for instance:

You should just one boot.ini file and you shouldnt be
changing the drive at the top of the boot order list
when testing what the rdisk parameter refers to.

Timothy Daniels wrote
Rod Speed wrote

No it wasnt, you confused the issue with the SIIG IDE PCI controller
card.

Fraid not, and phoenix bios are the least commonly used of the 3 majors.
And most dont have their drives on a PCI controller either.

You grasp at straws and try to change the subject

Lying, as always. There is no change of subject what so ever.

since your statements about the meaning of rdisk were shown to be WRONG.

No they werent, you didnt even do the test with motherboard ports.

If you do, you will find that your claim about
the rdisk parameter is just plain WRONG.

And you cant even manage to put your comments in a single reply either.

En , Rod Speed va escriu
Antoine Leca wrote
Rod Speed wrote

But NOT when you JUST change the boot order sequence.

Correct, assuming the generally used meaning for
"boot order sequence" ("order inside the IPL table",
also known as "IPL Priority", according to the standard.)

Where exactly are you getting that from ?

Compaq-Phoenix-Intel, BIOS Boot Specification Version 1.01, 1996, 46 p.
http://www.phoenix.com/NR/rdonlyres/...pecsbbs101.pdf

Would you have read/meant anything else?


ALL he is saying to you now is that its only the hard drives
with an MBR that matter in the bios boot order list, as
opposed to all entrys in that list including optical drives etc.

I did not read it this way, but if he said that, it would be very wrong.

Also, the fact there is or not a MBR should not come into play. You can
perfectly boot a computer with a device whose sector LBA0 ends in 55AAh but
lacking a MBR.
Perhaps you'll have to disable the advanced "features" like "virus
protection", though.


And its completely trivial to prove that it doesnt with the test
I posted.

You meant:
] The obvious problem with your claim is trivial to prove.
] Setup a test config where the boot.ini comes off the
] first drive in the boot list in the bios, with an entry to
] boot off a different physical drive. When you move
] that later physical drive in the boot order in the bios,
] that doesnt make any difference to which drive gets
] booted when you select that entry in the boot.ini at
] boot time. The N value changes according to you
] because you have moved it in the bios boot sequence
] list. XP still boots the same physical drive regardless.

The problem with this test is that it does not work in general.

Assume you have two controlers: say two IDE drives and a RAID array.
According to your hypothesis, we will assume that the booting ("system" in
MS parlance) drive would be the first IDE, so 0x80, the second would have
number 0x81, and the array will get the next position, 0x82.
We also assume that Windows is on the RAID array, so BOOT.INI reads
something as
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(2)partition(1)\WINDOWS

Now, if you change the "Hard disk drive sequence" in the BIOS, how could
that ever work?
Changing the sequence will assign 0x80 to the array, so it boots from it; we
should first assume the BOOT.INI had be moved accordingly; but to boot
successfully you also need to correct its content also, here to rdisk(0).
The IDE drives will get 0x81 and 0x82, but they are irrelevant as far as
your scheme is concerned.


Basically, I feel that the NTLDR scheme is dependant upon _both_ the
identification of the system device (the one where BOOT.INI is) and the boot
device a.k.a. where Windows kernel is (indicated by the ARCpath). Moving any
of those results usually in impossibility to boot and need to mess with the
location and content of BOOT.INI (there is hope the new BootMgr scheme will
solve part of these problems, but I am not sure).


And I understand neither you do...

Wrong again.

Sorry about the double negative, I thought it could be understood.
I wrote it was my impression you did _not_ know about some BIOS that allows
to _change_ the order the various drives on a single controller/device are
getting assigned.

If I was wrong and you do know about it, please elaborate.


Antoine

En ,
Timothy Daniels va escriu
Each HD was in turn put at the head of the BIOS's hard drive
boot order and the PC was started.

How do you do that *exactly*.

I do not have a XPS here, but on any of regular (recent) Dimension (4x00),
Optiflex and PowerEdge, I am only able to assign priorities between
_controlers_ (in the "Hard-Disk Drive Sequence" setup submenu); nothing
relevant was settable in the "Boot Sequence" submenu (only relevant is
"Hard-Disk Drive C:", and it is obviously the 0x80 disk as determined by the
above menu).

Then I have another menu, got with F10, which allows to boot from any IDE
drive installed (along other options).


According to your test description, it looks like your (Dell/Phoenix) BIOS
acts differently.


Whether this correspondence is found in other BIOSes is unknown
by this investigator,

Correct so far.

but since the Phoenix Tech's BIOSes are used by several large
manufacturers of PCs

Unfortunately, the feature you are relying upon seems specific, not only to
the maker of the BIOS, but also to the very breed of it.


Antoine

"Antoine Leca" asked:
Timothy Daniels va escriu
Each HD was in turn put at the head of the BIOS's hard drive
boot order and the PC was started.

How do you do that *exactly*.


During POST, I hit the Delete key. That brings up the BIOS.
I hit the RtArrow key 4 times. That brings up the Boot screen.
I hit the DownArrow key 8 times. That passes the
First Boot Device screen, the
Second Boot Device screen, and the
Third Boot Device screen.
Then I hit Enter and up comes the Hard Drive Submenu screen
which contains the hard drive boot order. The order
of the hard drives listed there can be adjusted with
the (+) and (-) keys.
Then I hit the Esc key to get back to the Boot screen.
Then I hit the RtArrow key once to get to the Exit screen.
Then I hit Enter twice to exit the BIOS, and POST restarts.

*TimDaniels*