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#11
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JK wrote: [...] The move to 64 bits and memory controllers integrated into the cpu for much greater performance are important reasons to upgrade. Of course those chips with integrated memory controllers are made by AMD though. How do you conclude that integrated memory controllers results in much greater performance???????? And why is it important to upgrade when my Dual Channel Hyper Threading Northwood 2.8/800 has performed fast flawlessly since I build it in July?????? Idle Temp 36 Deg. Max temp with 100% flat out numerical analysis = 56 Deg ???????? |
#12
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Johannes H Andersen wrote: JK wrote: [...] The move to 64 bits and memory controllers integrated into the cpu for much greater performance are important reasons to upgrade. Of course those chips with integrated memory controllers are made by AMD though. How do you conclude that integrated memory controllers results in much greater performance???????? When the controller is on the cpu, it runs at the full speed of the cpu. There isn't a much slower off chip front side bus to be a bottleneck. And why is it important to upgrade when my Dual Channel Hyper Threading Northwood 2.8/800 has performed fast flawlessly since I build it in July?????? Idle Temp 36 Deg. Max temp with 100% flat out numerical analysis = 56 Deg ???????? There are those with 16 bit processors that still perform flawlessly, although some people want to run the latest and highest performing software, which in less than a year will probably be 64 bit software for most applications. |
#13
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JK wrote:
There are those with 16 bit processors that still perform flawlessly, although some people want to run the latest and highest performing software, which in less than a year will probably be 64 bit software for most applications. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Talk about Beachfront property! How long did it take 16-bit to yield to 32-bit?.................... no, don't bother, I'll tell you, effectively TEN YEARS!!!!!!! 386-1986............................32 bit software showed up in 1996. 64-bitness will remain irrelivant WRT to the home user for another 8 yrs or so. (using the Opteron initial release time). and yes - I beleive this is a realistic timeframe for "Joe Ave" (i.e. the mainstream). Just as in the late 80's and early 90's (i.e. 16bit on a 32bit) million of us will be using a 64-bit chip to run 32 bit software. Now a 64-bit chip means nothing to me, and on board memory controller which will let me run 32-bit/16-bit faster DOES MEAN SOMETHING.......in the "here and now". I'll buy for 64-bitness in the next decade - thanks. -- http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml http://www.truthinaction.net/iraq/illegaljayne.htm As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air -- however slight -lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas, US Supreme Court (1939-75) "It shows us that there were senior people in the Bush administration who were seriously contemplating the use of torture, and trying to figure out whether there were any legal loopholes that might allow them to commit criminal acts, They seem to be putting forward a theory that the president in wartime can essentially do what he wants regardless of what the law may say," Tom Malinowski of Human Rights Watch - commenting upon Defense Department Lawyer Will Dunham's 56-page legalization of torture memo. If you add all of those up, you should have a conservative rebellion against the giant corporation in the White House masquerading as a human being named George W. Bush. Just as progressives have been abandoned by the corporate Democrats and told, "You got nowhere to go other than to stay home or vote for the Democrats", this is the fate of the authentic conservatives in the Republican Party. Ralph Nader - June 2004 - The American Conservative Magazine "But I believe in torture and I will torture you." -An American soldier shares the joys of Democracy with an Iraqi prisoner. "My mother praises me for fighting the Americans. If we are killed, our wives and mothers will rejoice that we died defending the freedom of our country. -Iraqi Mahdi fighter "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise, soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked me to see if I was alive. I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me. The soldier was laughing, when Yousef cried, the soldier said: "'No, stop," -Shihab, survivor of USSA bombing of Iraqi wedding. "the absolute convergence of the neoconservatives with the Christian Zionists and the pro-Israel lobby, driving U.S. Mideast policy." -Don Wagner, an evangelical South Carolina minister "Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton's administration for the Kosovo military action.'Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,' Bush said." Houston Chronicle 4/9/99 "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country." Washington, D.C., May 5, 2004 "The new administration seems to be paying no attention to the problem of terrorism. What they will do is stagger along until there's a major incident and then suddenly say, 'Oh my God, shouldn't we be organized to deal with this?'" - Paul Bremer, speaking to a McCormick Tribune Foundation conference on terrorism in Wheaton, Ill. on Feb. 26, 2001. "On Jan. 26, 1998, President Clinton received a letter imploring him to use his State of the Union address to make removal of Saddam Hussein's regime the "aim of American foreign policy" and to use military action because "diplomacy is failing." Were Clinton to do that, the signers pledged, they would "offer our full support in this difficult but necessary endeavor." Signing the pledge were Elliott Abrams, Bill Bennett, John Bolton, Robert Kagan, William Kristol, Richard Perle, Richard L. Armitage, Jeffrey Bergner, Paula Dobriansky, Francis Fukuyama, Zalmay Khalilzad, Peter W. Rodman, William Schneider, Jr., Vin Weber, R. James Woolsey and Robert B. Zoellick, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz. Four years before 9/11, the neocons had Baghdad on their minds." -philip (usenet) "I had better things to do in the 60s than fight in Vietnam," -Richard Cheney, Kerry critic. "I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running - to be effective - some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, It's sovereignty but [some] of that sovereignty they are going to allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission." - Powell 4/27/04 "We're trying to explain how things are going, and they are going as they are going," he said, adding: "Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You're going to have good days and bad days." On the road to democracy, this "is one moment, and there will be other moments. And there will be good moments and there will be less good moments." - Rumsfeld 4/6/04 "I also have this belief, strong belief, that freedom is not this country's gift to the world; freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And as the greatest power on the face of the Earth, we have an obligation to help the spread of freedom." ~ Bush the Crusader RUSSERT: Are you prepared to lose? BUSH: No, I'm not going to lose. RUSSERT: If you did, what would you do? BUSH: Well, I don't plan on losing. I've got a vision for what I want to do for the country. See, I know exactly where I want to lead.................And we got changing times here in America, too., 2/8/04 "And that's very important for, I think, the people to understand where I'm coming from, to know that this is a dangerous world. I wish it wasn't. I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind. - pResident of the United State of America, 2/8/04 "Let's talk about the nuclear proposition for a minute. We know that based on intelligence, that he has been very, very good at hiding these kinds of efforts. He's had years to get good at it and we know he has been absolutely devoted to trying to acquire nuclear weapons. And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." - Vice President Dick Cheney, on "Meet the Press", 3/16/03 "I don't know anybody that I can think of who has contended that the Iraqis had nuclear weapons." - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, 6/24/03 "I think in this case international law stood in the way of doing the right thing (invading Iraq)." - Richard Perle "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." - Colin Powell February 24 2001 "We have been successful for the last ten years in keeping him from developing those weapons and we will continue to be successful." "He threatens not the United States." "But I also thought that we had pretty much removed his stings and frankly for ten years we really have." 'But what is interesting is that with the regime that has been in place for the past ten years, I think a pretty good job has been done of keeping him from breaking out and suddenly showing up one day and saying "look what I got." He hasn't been able to do that.' - Colin Powell February 26 2001 |
#14
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"Johannes H Andersen" wrote in message
... How do you conclude that integrated memory controllers results in much greater performance???????? And why is it important to upgrade when my Dual Channel Hyper Threading Northwood 2.8/800 has performed fast flawlessly since I build it in July?????? Idle Temp 36 Deg. Max temp with 100% flat out numerical analysis = 56 Deg ???????? As much as I don't like JK he does make a good point about integrated memory controllers being a help (though not nessesarly that Intel *NEEDS* one to be compitive). AMD's integrated memory controller has really done more to help out the A64 than any other feature of the chip. There are many applications in the world where the lower latency memory controller is a huge advantage, and probably none where it is a diss-advantage. Carlo |
#15
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:53:06 +0000, Johannes H Andersen wrote:
JK wrote: [...] The move to 64 bits and memory controllers integrated into the cpu for much greater performance are important reasons to upgrade. Of course those chips with integrated memory controllers are made by AMD though. How do you conclude that integrated memory controllers results in much greater performance???????? Think latency. An integrated memory controller has two less I/O crossings, *EACH WAY*. Clocks is clocks. And why is it important to upgrade when my Dual Channel Hyper Threading Northwood 2.8/800 has performed fast flawlessly since I build it in July?????? Is that a serious question? I'm not sure what this has to do with th eprice of oats in China, but just to assue you that the world won't end without your grace, my Opteron has been performing flawlessly since June. ;-) Idle Temp 36 Deg. Max temp with 100% flat out numerical analysis = 56 Deg ???????? ....and this has somehow *something* to do with performance? Wow, what some people will do to convince themselves that they made the right purchase. Good grief, don't apologize! -- Keith |
#16
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 23:46:38 +0000, gaffo wrote:
JK wrote: There are those with 16 bit processors that still perform flawlessly, although some people want to run the latest and highest performing software, which in less than a year will probably be 64 bit software for most applications. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! Talk about Beachfront property! 64bit applications are *here*. Pretty much everything I run here is 64bit. How long did it take 16-bit to yield to 32-bit?.................... Oh, you're talking about WinBlows! Oh, you'll be waiting another decade for a usable OS. ;-) no, don't bother, I'll tell you, effectively TEN YEARS!!!!!!! FOr WinBlows, perhaps. The rest of the world is moving. 386-1986............................32 bit software showed up in 1996. You're on drugs. OS/2 was 32 bit *long* before '96 and Linux is 64bit *now*. 64-bitness will remain irrelivant WRT to the home user for another 8 yrs or so. (using the Opteron initial release time). What *are* you smoking? *another* 8 years? It'll be relevant in less than two. ...not to mention that AMD64 does a rather nice 32bit, at a small cost. and yes - I beleive this is a realistic timeframe for "Joe Ave" (i.e. the mainstream). Ok, Joe Average will be happy with a P5 to download his spam. So? That's not the mainstream either. Withing two years, I think gamers are going to be 64b and mainstream (as in new) systems will be over 1GB (where 64bit processors are really needed - assuming you believe in virtual memory) Just as in the late 80's and early 90's (i.e. 16bit on a 32bit) million of us will be using a 64-bit chip to run 32 bit software. Some are running 64bit software now. Get with it man! ;-) Now a 64-bit chip means nothing to me, and on board memory controller which will let me run 32-bit/16-bit faster DOES MEAN SOMETHING.......in the "here and now". I'll buy for 64-bitness in the next decade - thanks. If you are a serious user (note that I didn't see any reason to upgrade a K6-III *until* AMD64 was reasonable), you'll be buying sooner than that, IMO. The memory barrier is a serious one and the cost[*] of 64bit is trivial. [*] even if the price is a tad high right now. -- Keith |
#17
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"Yousuf Khan" wrote in message ... AJ wrote: Personally, if Northwoods go away and Prescott is the only Intel choice, I'm gonna buy AMD. Secondly, if motherboards from Intel become $120, I'll go third party there too. Enough of the gouging already. "Innovation" where it is not necessary is not appreciated. Not even sure why you would need to announce this, AMD and/or third-party motherboards should've always been on your radar, even before now. Historically, good integrated motherboards for AMD haven't been there. AJ |
#18
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"Johannes H Andersen" wrote in message ... JK wrote: [...] The move to 64 bits and memory controllers integrated into the cpu for much greater performance are important reasons to upgrade. Of course those chips with integrated memory controllers are made by AMD though. How do you conclude that integrated memory controllers results in much greater performance???????? And why is it important to upgrade when my Dual Channel Hyper Threading Northwood 2.8/800 has performed fast flawlessly since I build it in July?????? Idle Temp 36 Deg. Max temp with 100% flat out numerical analysis = 56 Deg ???????? On these cool fall days, (though I have the heat on in my home), my 2.4 Northwood idles at under 30 C. As I type this, it's at 28. I have a Zalman 7000 AlCu instead of the stock HSF though. Your 36 C idle temp sounds high to me, but maybe your ambient is higher too. AJ |
#19
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"Ghostrider" wrote in message ... AJ wrote: It's sad how corps can get so caught up in their own BS that they have no concept of what's important (incapable of any kind of out-of-the-box thinking). Hopefully they'll be able to realize their mistakes and produce consumer-driven products and maybe even anticipate what is wanted before they get so far away from the mark in the future. Personally, if Northwoods go away and Prescott is the only Intel choice, I'm gonna buy AMD. Secondly, if motherboards from Intel become $120, I'll go third party there too. Enough of the gouging already. "Innovation" where it is not necessary is not appreciated. AJ The consumer market has been slowing down in any event and throwing more capital into the Pentium-4 makes little or no sense at all. Of course, we all know that Intel has its own version of the "skunk works" (or certainly can afford to have one) and it would be interesting to see what mature product might emerge from Intel's R&D after 2 or 3 years. With future business prospects being what they currently are, the ability to continuously upgrade has come to a screeching halt, anyway. "Innovate" may mean changing directions or going down a different path. I'm all set for the next few years with my Intel 865 MB and Northwood combo. I like it. By the time I'm ready again for a new machine, maybe they will have gone through all the interim models of boards and processors and have something I'll want again. AJ |
#20
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 20:53:06 GMT, Johannes H Andersen
wrote: JK wrote: [...] The move to 64 bits and memory controllers integrated into the cpu for much greater performance are important reasons to upgrade. Of course those chips with integrated memory controllers are made by AMD though. How do you conclude that integrated memory controllers results in much greater performance???????? The integrated memory controller reduces memory latency by roughly 20-30%. This is HUGE. Consider that processor speeds have increased by two orders of magnitude since the 386 days, while memory bandwidth has increased by well over one order of magnitude, but memory latency has only dropped by about 50%. Even with the VERY large caches that are becoming common on today's chips, memory latency is still a rather important part of the equation. This alone probably results in about a 10-15% improvement in system performance over a (theoretical) otherwise identical processor with an off-chip memory controller. I'm really not sure how much longer Intel can go with an off-chip memory controller, they are pretty much the ONLY company left that hasn't moved this on-chip (not counting the grandfathered designs like SGI MIPS chips and HP PA-RISC). And why is it important to upgrade when my Dual Channel Hyper Threading Northwood 2.8/800 has performed fast flawlessly since I build it in July?????? Idle Temp 36 Deg. Max temp with 100% flat out numerical analysis = 56 Deg ???????? Obviously there's absolutely no reason at all for you to upgrade a system that you built 4 months ago. However, for someone like me who built most of their system in early 2002, it's starting to get a bit long in the tooth (woohoo for me though, I just ordered a newer processor today!). Many others are running systems that are even older and may be looking into upgrading. Despite popular belief, a 1.0GHz PIII does tend to feel a little bit sluggish these days once you're used to much faster processors. ------------- Tony Hill hilla underscore 20 at yahoo dot ca |
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