RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 15:50:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

Blood is the fuel the republican leaders run on.

No I have no respect for them, no I'd choose Clinton any time, at least
he was fun to read about with cigars and all that.

At least he claimed he did not inhale. Seems like you did.

NNN

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006 16:02:34 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:57:25 -0500) it happened George Macdonald
wrote in
:

IIRC Occam was actually a bit of a charlatan... paranoic even, and proposed
his theory, in a largely unsuccessful attempt, to discredit perfectly good,
logical, accepted explanations and have his own lunatic ideas imposed
instead. I'll have to see if I can look that up again but err, looney...
paranoid... yup it seems to fit.:-)

Yea, do not know him personally... Was he Republican?

You were the one who used his name.

Anyways as to the RJ45, you have heard of VOIP have you?
In most houses here the old RJ11 connector is used for the phone.

Huh? RJ-11 in NL? Not what the standard info presents at all. In fact it
seems there are 18 different phone jack types in Europe - bit of a mess
really but great for any company which makes adapters... 18x18 different
products. This site says this is the one for NL:
http://www.travelessentials.com/depa...tor/page1.html.
Christ even Luxembourg has its own phone jack.

Now think VOIP for a moment. All those standalone VOIP phones come
with Ethernet.
So the cables with the RJ11 will have to be replaced by cables with RJ45
anyways, and a connection WILL be in almost every room (never mind the
restroom, I had a business partner who would phone from there; he was on the
phone all day, but most people go there to get away from it for a moment,
smoke a cigarette (if allowed), but some want phones EVERYWHERE).

VOIP, as a base service, has a problem in many parts of USA: if you lose
power, how do you call the electric company to report it? As for phones
everywhere, people hate wiring - the buggers who install it always make a
cock-up of it and it's messy. In older houses, it means ripping plastered
walls apart. Again most people just get an RF phone.

Then there are many ways that (VOIP) Ethernet can enter the house.
Some use the old telco copper wire (DSL), some use TV cable, some use
Internet over power lines (but that is really a no no, in Austria those
companies have had their license withdrawn, because the (not twisted)
power lines emit RF interference 10000 times stronger then allowed limits,
and short wave digital radio no longer worked.....).
But anyways, all these 'suppliers' of VOIP end up with an Ethernet connector.
Their box could be where the cable meets the house so to speak, all different
boxes, but all interfacing to that same infrastructure called Ethernet.
Just alone because of this VOIP Ethernet will be standard in the future.

I think you're going to have a hard time selling the idea of (re)cabling
the residential market - it certainly is nothing I'm interested in... nor
many people here that I've talked to in the US. IOW you may have a small
niche market there but I wouldn't get excited about its prospects.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

George Macdonald wrote in part:
On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:57:25 -0500) it happened George Macdonald
IIRC Occam was actually a bit of a charlatan... paranoic even,
and proposed his theory, in a largely unsuccessful attempt,
to discredit perfectly good, logical, accepted explanations and
have his own lunatic ideas imposed instead. I'll have to see
if I can look that up again but err, looney... paranoid... yup
it seems to fit.:-)

William of Ockham might have been a radical reductionist
but his razor is the basis for modern science.

Yea, do not know him personally... Was he Republican?

No. Do you consider 14thC Francisian friars to be the equivalent!

Huh? RJ-11 in NL?

Yes, in new construction. The clever 4-contact interrupting
blades are still seen of course. Just as 4pins are in the US.
Rejacking is nowhere near as much work as rewiring.

VOIP, as a base service, has a problem in many parts of USA:
if you lose power, how do you call the electric company to
report it?

Cellphone, of course! The real question is, How many
backups to you want? Somebody will always want more.

As for phones everywhere, people hate wiring - the buggers
who install it always make a cock-up of it and it's messy.
In older houses, it means ripping plastered walls apart.
Again most people just get an RF phone.

Surely you've noticed that Euro guildsmen are much more skillful
than US wire monkeys. They pay for it too. Interiors surface
wiring is also considered acceptable, whereas in the US it is
not, where many complain even about exterior surface wiring.
Not that Euros have much choice, since they don't use studs or
hollow drywall. They pay for that, too!

I think you're going to have a hard time selling the idea of
(re)cabling the residential market - it certainly is nothing
I'm interested in... nor many people here that I've talked
to in the US. IOW you may have a small niche market there
but I wouldn't get excited about its prospects.

What recabling? VoIP has flaws, but cabling ain't one of 'em.
Disconnect the house POTS at the NID. Plug the VoIP PBX/bridge
into any open RJ11. It pushes battery & dialtone to std sets,
and needs power (UPS at owners option) and uplink.

-- Robert

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 14:55:46 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
wrote:

George Macdonald wrote in part:
On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Jan 2006 03:57:25 -0500) it happened George Macdonald
IIRC Occam was actually a bit of a charlatan... paranoic even,
and proposed his theory, in a largely unsuccessful attempt,
to discredit perfectly good, logical, accepted explanations and
have his own lunatic ideas imposed instead. I'll have to see
if I can look that up again but err, looney... paranoid... yup
it seems to fit.:-)

William of Ockham might have been a radical reductionist
but his razor is the basis for modern science.

That's a bit of a leap.:-) Personally I'd never heard of him until InMOS's
language for the ill-fated transputer.

Yea, do not know him personally... Was he Republican?

No. Do you consider 14thC Francisian friars to be the equivalent!

Huh? RJ-11 in NL?

Yes, in new construction. The clever 4-contact interrupting
blades are still seen of course. Just as 4pins are in the US.
Rejacking is nowhere near as much work as rewiring.

What about the URL I gave?

On the rejacking, there used to be regulations on jacks used which allowed
the Euro telcos to prohibit any use of jacks which did not conform to their
design. I haven't had recent experience but they *would* disconnect you
for any "violation". Has this all changed? In the UK they still seem to
be stuck on their special jacks.

VOIP, as a base service, has a problem in many parts of USA:
if you lose power, how do you call the electric company to
report it?

Cellphone, of course! The real question is, How many
backups to you want? Somebody will always want more.

Hmm, here the electric company uses the caller ID to trace the address and
locate the fault - no human interaction at all. Dunno how that's done
exactly but with a cell phone that could cause complications for an
automated system. I've never tried with a cellphone because I don't have
nor want one.:-)

As for phones everywhere, people hate wiring - the buggers
who install it always make a cock-up of it and it's messy.
In older houses, it means ripping plastered walls apart.
Again most people just get an RF phone.

Surely you've noticed that Euro guildsmen are much more skillful
than US wire monkeys. They pay for it too. Interiors surface
wiring is also considered acceptable, whereas in the US it is
not, where many complain even about exterior surface wiring.
Not that Euros have much choice, since they don't use studs or
hollow drywall. They pay for that, too!

Wow I dunno where you got all that. The Euro "guildsmen" that I've come
across, I would not call particularly more skillful than US variants... but
they are better "protected" against DIYers and umm, "non-union" workers.
I've seen *some* surface wiring in the odd rented dwelling which had been
done-over on the cheap but no, in general people will not accept it any
more than it is here in the US.

As for drywall, there are many more terraced and semi-detached houses there
where the separating wall is obviously quite substantial but all housing,
other than maybe super-luxury, since the 40s/50s has had what is known as
plasterboard -- basically the same stuff as drywall -- with a cavity, for
its inner walls and for "finishing" of the separating walls.

I think you're going to have a hard time selling the idea of
(re)cabling the residential market - it certainly is nothing
I'm interested in... nor many people here that I've talked
to in the US. IOW you may have a small niche market there
but I wouldn't get excited about its prospects.

What recabling? VoIP has flaws, but cabling ain't one of 'em.
Disconnect the house POTS at the NID. Plug the VoIP PBX/bridge
into any open RJ11. It pushes battery & dialtone to std sets,
and needs power (UPS at owners option) and uplink.

In the *context*, he was talking about having RJ-45 Ethernet jacks *and*
wiring (cat 5e/6 ?) all over the building... not just for VOIP of course
but that was one of his justifications.

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

George Macdonald wrote in part:
wrote:
William of Ockham might have been a radical reductionist
but his razor is the basis for modern science.

That's a bit of a leap.:-) Personally I'd never heard of
him until InMOS's language for the ill-fated transputer.

No leap. The thing about science is independance from
personality.

What about the URL I gave?

You are correct. NL is a 4 pin. I was thinking about FR
with the interrupting blade. These adapters may be necessary,
depeinding on where you go. People are more likely to complain
if they can get one than if they have one they don't need.

Hmm, here the electric company uses the caller ID to trace
the address and locate the fault - no human interaction
at all. Dunno how that's done exactly but with a cell phone
that could cause complications for an automated system.

Sure, and they'd have to fall-back to older tech.

I've never tried with a cellphone because I don't have nor
want one.:-)

That case can easily be made. Who wants to be on a leash?
Only those who hold the whip.

Wow I dunno where you got all that. The Euro "guildsmen" that
I've come across, I would not call particularly more skillful
than US variants... but they are better "protected" against
DIYers and umm, "non-union" workers. I've seen *some* surface
wiring in the odd rented dwelling which had been done-over on
the cheap but no, in general people will not accept it any more
than it is here in the US.

It varies by locale. Many cities, much of the housing is
state-owned and rent controlled. Older buildings with
solid walls are hard to do without surface wiring. Have
you ever tried trenching?

As for drywall, there are many more terraced and semi-detached
houses there where the separating wall is obviously quite
substantial but all housing, other than maybe super-luxury,
since the 40s/50s has had what is known as plasterboard --

Some places, but many places building codes are different.
I've seen 1990s dutch construction with thru-brick for
_interior_ non-load bearing walls!

basically the same stuff as drywall -- with a cavity, for its
inner walls and for "finishing" of the separating walls.

In the *context*, he was talking about having RJ-45
Ethernet jacks *and* wiring (cat 5e/6 ?) all over the
building... not just for VOIP of course but that was one
of his justifications.

Sorry, I missed that. My fault from jumping late into
the thread. I would think if someone has 4 pr phone wiring
not-too-badly-daisychined, that could be converted to 10baseT
without too much trouble. Or buy the equipment to run one
of the 1pr systems.

-- Robert

Voip Learning and Translating Tutorial
Voice Over IP is a new communication means that let you telephone with
Internet at almost null cost.
How this is possible, what systems are used, what is the standard, all
that is covered by this Howto.


http://www.freewebs.com/voipformula/VoIP-HOWTO.html

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:00:00 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
wrote:

George Macdonald wrote in part:
wrote:
William of Ockham might have been a radical reductionist
but his razor is the basis for modern science.

That's a bit of a leap.:-) Personally I'd never heard of
him until InMOS's language for the ill-fated transputer.

No leap. The thing about science is independance from
personality.

Well I've studied scientific subjects all my life and I'd have thought if
it was a tenet of modern science, it would have come up before InMOS.:-)

What about the URL I gave?

You are correct. NL is a 4 pin. I was thinking about FR
with the interrupting blade. These adapters may be necessary,
depeinding on where you go. People are more likely to complain
if they can get one than if they have one they don't need.

Hmm, no you were right about recent installations: I decided to do a bit of
"research" and turned up that the European Commission has mandated the
RJ-11 as part of a Common Technical Regulation - I'm not sure if full CTR21
was ever established because it's all tied up with an attempt to have a
common standard for the electrical interface and the signalling etc.
Before a CTR is stamped into law, the quango concerned issues TBRs,
Technical Basis for Regulation, so the delegates concerned have all been
haggling over TBR21, TBR37 & TBR38 but AIUI, the RJ-11 *is* now mandated
for Telcos and equipment suppliers, with optional adapters for the latter.

So the EC does *some* good things after all but the amount of legal bumph
they've accumulated over this is mind-boggling and all they've apparently
got so far is RJ-11 - D.C. has nothing on Bruxelles as far as work-program
for lawyers.:-) Some of the tech discussions I came across are hilarious:
they have polls on details of TBRxx and whether it is "ready" for CTR; you
get: "we will vote 'for' if rules are amended to adapt to *our* system"...
utterly futile. A German comment was "utterly useless", the French seem to
"miss" meetings and the Irish are always present. The quango, ETSI, has
installed itself in Sophia-Antipolis not far from Cannes and close to Cap
d'Antibes... mmmm, *very* nice location.:-)

Wow I dunno where you got all that. The Euro "guildsmen" that
I've come across, I would not call particularly more skillful
than US variants... but they are better "protected" against
DIYers and umm, "non-union" workers. I've seen *some* surface
wiring in the odd rented dwelling which had been done-over on
the cheap but no, in general people will not accept it any more
than it is here in the US.

It varies by locale. Many cities, much of the housing is
state-owned and rent controlled. Older buildings with
solid walls are hard to do without surface wiring. Have
you ever tried trenching?

No I haven't tried trenching but/because I've seen the results of bungled
attempts.:-) Much of that "state owned" has been sold off to the former
renters... and of course, eventually, the usual leeches.

In the *context*, he was talking about having RJ-45
Ethernet jacks *and* wiring (cat 5e/6 ?) all over the
building... not just for VOIP of course but that was one
of his justifications.

Sorry, I missed that. My fault from jumping late into
the thread. I would think if someone has 4 pr phone wiring
not-too-badly-daisychined, that could be converted to 10baseT
without too much trouble. Or buy the equipment to run one
of the 1pr systems.

I'm not sure what "1pr" is but HomePNA is claiming to be getting close to
100Mb/s now, but I'm not sure what the reliability is like. I know that at
work, the cat5 I put in has been working fine at 1Gb/s so I guess if the
original telephone wiring were done carefully......

--
Rgds, George Macdonald

On a sunny day (Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:00:00 GMT) it happened Robert Redelmeier
wrote in
:

Wow I dunno where you got all that. The Euro "guildsmen" that
I've come across, I would not call particularly more skillful
than US variants... but they are better "protected" against
DIYers and umm, "non-union" workers. I've seen *some* surface
wiring in the odd rented dwelling which had been done-over on
the cheap but no, in general people will not accept it any more
than it is here in the US.

It varies by locale. Many cities, much of the housing is
state-owned and rent controlled. Older buildings with
solid walls are hard to do without surface wiring. Have
you ever tried trenching?

As for drywall, there are many more terraced and semi-detached
houses there where the separating wall is obviously quite
substantial but all housing, other than maybe super-luxury,
since the 40s/50s has had what is known as plasterboard --

Some places, but many places building codes are different.
I've seen 1990s dutch construction with thru-brick for
_interior_ non-load bearing walls!

basically the same stuff as drywall -- with a cavity, for its
inner walls and for "finishing" of the separating walls.

In the *context*, he was talking about having RJ-45
Ethernet jacks *and* wiring (cat 5e/6 ?) all over the
building... not just for VOIP of course but that was one
of his justifications.

Sorry, I missed that. My fault from jumping late into
the thread. I would think if someone has 4 pr phone wiring
not-too-badly-daisychined, that could be converted to 10baseT
without too much trouble. Or buy the equipment to run one
of the 1pr systems.

Base10 is too slow, if new I would go for gigabit, base100 will do for HD TV.


Some remarks: Yes telco has changed a lot in Netherlands in last few years.
Yes my DSL modem came just with RJ11 connector.
Yes there are 'adapter plugs' from 4 pin (the big connectors) to RJ11 in
every KPN shop these days, they ALSO have DIY cable and RJ11 plugs with
pliers in those shops these days.
So all RJ11 really even on the phones.
The old houses may have 4 pin big connectors.. likely with RJ11 adapters.

As for putting in the cat 5 ... I am sure it will happen, first in new
buildings.
The power-over-Ethernet (cat5) modules are still expensive..
And I think the land lines will still operate for -what is it 24 hours?- if
power goes... (There were 48 V batteries in the local phone 'stations'.
Something like 48 V 30A chargers I actually designed for them, but now
these stations are all solid state I wonder how long these will run without
power).
Do you know?
All cell phone (GSM) will stop working, and all TCP/IP say Internet will stop
working too without power (think Internet over cable).
I am not at all sure DSL will still work without power.
(We had power failure in large parts of the country several times now).

So, anyways, to be prepared for that (but I am a nerd) I have a battery
powered amateur radio station here that can run max 12 Hours continuous in
TRANSMIT (in case of flooding here).
Worst case 30 minutes worldwide in transmit at max power, enough time to say
'help'.
With modern tech I would not rely on a phone line working ANYTIME when power
goes especially if the area is flooded (yes I am behind a sea dike).

Yes the telco here had to give up (or at least did give up) many of the old
'kill you if you open box' rules.....
This was due to market pressure, others wanted to sell modems too.., other
carriers use their network.. etc.

Europe is getting more and more liberal as far as telecommunications is
concerned.
Even the assignment of frequencies, in Germany spectrum is allocated different
in different cities now I have read (for TV over cell phone), there seem to be
2 systems..
A new digital TV standard... it is going really fast.....
Hope that answers George Macdonald question too.

Where will it go?