RFC: Sony Playstation-3 the next IBM PC?

Jan Panteltje wrote in part:
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:55:17 GMT) it happened Robert Redelmeier

Jan Panteltje wrote in part:
Then it hit me: IS Sony PlayStation-3 the next IBM PC?

In a word: NO. Not for technical reasons, because the CPU
is more than enough and a 1080i HDTV would make a fine monitor.

The problem is psycho-social, much like what stops voice
recognition software from becoming the dominant UI. People
like public entertainment (sound, stage, TV) but like private
communications & reading. No-one likes a shoulder-surfer.

It has *2* HDMI outputs, and ANY of the 7 SPE can do
decoding.. No reason why one could not do the TV, and the
other one a normal monitor. It also has component out....
Maybe I misunderstood you?

Oh, this could work, but then you'd have to run monitor,
kbd/ctl cables between entertainment and personal workspaces.
People don't like running cables, nor dealing with the
dual-use complexity.

-- Robert

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:02:47 GMT) it happened Robert Redelmeier
wrote in
:

Jan Panteltje wrote in part:
On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:55:17 GMT) it happened Robert Redelmeier

Jan Panteltje wrote in part:
Then it hit me: IS Sony PlayStation-3 the next IBM PC?

In a word: NO. Not for technical reasons, because the CPU
is more than enough and a 1080i HDTV would make a fine monitor.

The problem is psycho-social, much like what stops voice
recognition software from becoming the dominant UI. People
like public entertainment (sound, stage, TV) but like private
communications & reading. No-one likes a shoulder-surfer.

It has *2* HDMI outputs, and ANY of the 7 SPE can do
decoding.. No reason why one could not do the TV, and the
other one a normal monitor. It also has component out....
Maybe I misunderstood you?

Oh, this could work, but then you'd have to run monitor,
kbd/ctl cables between entertainment and personal workspaces.
People don't like running cables, nor dealing with the
dual-use complexity.
Well, OK, cables.... should see this place..... But there will
*always* be some cables... power, connection to monitor... and
cables are a lot more reliable then all that wireless, I do
not like recharging batteries all the time.... But then at that
pricepoint the PS3 would have: just use two, one next to the TV
and one next to your PC... Like al these AC adapters, now how
to tell these apart.. I have labeled all of these.. to prevent
blowing up stuff, not 2 are the same... Wireless power we need :-)


-- Robert

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:13:35 -0600) it happened chrisv
wrote in :


1920x1080 / 720x576 = 5x exactly!

The HDTV comparison you're looking for is 1920x1080 / 1280x720. And
even that's not right, because there's no source of 1080p, only 1080i.
Converting a 1080i source to 1080p requires no processing, only the
temporary storage of the alternate scan-lines so that the image can be
displayed all at once. So, the REAL comparision, as far as processing
power is concerned, is 1920x1080x0.5 / 1280x720, which is very close
to being the same thing.

Note that the above is a bit over-simplified, but it does correctly
illustrate that 720p is really not "easier" than 1080i (or "1080p"
derived from 1080i).
OK, apart indeed from several de-interlacing schemes, such as over more
then 2 scan lines.
Maybe you can explain to me than why it is claimed that we need a P4 3.2GHz
dual core for the 1080i, and why I can get only 3fps in ffplay on a Duron 950?
(this Duron will play 720x576 @ 25 no problem, in mpeg2dec (picture viewer
only at that resolution ist will hit lots and lots more (that prog has no
speed control, great for checking framerates).

I can only measure, and the ffmpeg H264 decoder is not perfect, has still some
artefacts, on the TPS demo, do you take into account the power needed to
update the display?
Reality check, show me how much frames you get on your system, I make some of
the stream available via ftp if you want?

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 15:56:50 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
wrote in :

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 08:13:35 -0600) it happened chrisv
wrote in :


1920x1080 / 720x576 = 5x exactly!
BTW I think it is like this, if decoding time is 5x and display update time
is 2.5 x and each have similar percentage, then you will be 12.5 x slower.
Then a Duron 950 hat can do 60 fps on 720x576 @ 50 will only do 60 / 12.5 = 4.8
fps on 1920x1080 and this is what I see (actually I see 3 fps).

(Using 2.5x and 5x wild estimates).

QED
:-)

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:39:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:01:22 GMT) it happened
" wrote in
:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:28:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

The last one was a close look at the Sony Play-station-3 specs.
Now that has 2x HDMI out, s-video too, Ethernet in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Pl...specifications

And it runs Linux it seems.

So in theory one could use the cheap boxes that already exist for recording
TV, stream the 12Mbits H264 over ethernet to the play-station-3, and, as that
can decode H264 even in 180 progressive, interface in HDMI to the TV.

Then I realized that I could perhaps also use the PS3 as server, as it
would be on the LAN anyways that way, and can run my web and FTP server.

Then I realized that as it should be able to run X it should also be able to
run my applications, StarOffice, newsreader, what not....
Also it is small and silent and fits the ever growing integration concept,
gives me some interesting games....

I do not have one, but sure am interested to get my hands on one now.
Then I realized IBM sold the PC business to the Chinese, why sell something?
You no longer need it, because you have something better,.

IBM is making all Cell processor stuff available to Linux developers (I
downloaded it some time ago).

Then it hit me:
IS Sony PlayStation-3 the next IBM PC?

In a word: NO. At least not before Bill Gates' blessing in form of
Windows version for Cell/PS3 or some form of emulation as the one
rumored to be in the works for MacOS X. With all due respect to
alternative OSes of all kind, they are marginal next to Windows, and
will stay marginal for the foreseeable future. Even according to the
stats of PC sales. And almost certainly all the data on Linux PC
sales is screwed because most of these PCs end up re-formatted with
pirated Windows in a matter of days, maybe hours after the sale.


LOL, sees mlike Billy The Gates came ito life by buying that quick and
dirty MS DOS so IBM had an OS.

Seems to me IBM had Linux for this one in house and needs no MS.
:-)

I did realize that MS share must now head towards earth....
Because it will take him some time to port MS windows to PlayStation 3
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHOaaaaHAHAHAHA LOL hehehe
LOL

You laughed typing the stuff above - the spelling shows. Bill laughs
all the way to the bank - day in, day out. Which laugh is better?

NNN

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:23:18 GMT) it happened
" wrote in
:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:39:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:01:22 GMT) it happened
" wrote in
:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:28:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

The last one was a close look at the Sony Play-station-3 specs.
Now that has 2x HDMI out, s-video too, Ethernet in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Pl...specifications

And it runs Linux it seems.

So in theory one could use the cheap boxes that already exist for recording
TV, stream the 12Mbits H264 over ethernet to the play-station-3, and, as that
can decode H264 even in 180 progressive, interface in HDMI to the TV.

Then I realized that I could perhaps also use the PS3 as server, as it
would be on the LAN anyways that way, and can run my web and FTP server.

Then I realized that as it should be able to run X it should also be able to
run my applications, StarOffice, newsreader, what not....
Also it is small and silent and fits the ever growing integration concept,
gives me some interesting games....

I do not have one, but sure am interested to get my hands on one now.
Then I realized IBM sold the PC business to the Chinese, why sell something?
You no longer need it, because you have something better,.

IBM is making all Cell processor stuff available to Linux developers (I
downloaded it some time ago).

Then it hit me:
IS Sony PlayStation-3 the next IBM PC?

In a word: NO. At least not before Bill Gates' blessing in form of
Windows version for Cell/PS3 or some form of emulation as the one
rumored to be in the works for MacOS X. With all due respect to
alternative OSes of all kind, they are marginal next to Windows, and
will stay marginal for the foreseeable future. Even according to the
stats of PC sales. And almost certainly all the data on Linux PC
sales is screwed because most of these PCs end up re-formatted with
pirated Windows in a matter of days, maybe hours after the sale.


LOL, sees mlike Billy The Gates came ito life by buying that quick and
dirty MS DOS so IBM had an OS.

Seems to me IBM had Linux for this one in house and needs no MS.
:-)

I did realize that MS share must now head towards earth....
Because it will take him some time to port MS windows to PlayStation 3
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHOaaaaHAHAHAHA LOL hehehe
LOL

You laughed typing the stuff above - the spelling shows. Bill laughs
all the way to the bank - day in, day out. Which laugh is better?

I have seen Bills pictures a couple of times last year, he did not look
so happy.
Maybe this is more philosophical, but money cannot buy happiness.
If Bill went to look for the true self he'd at least have a chance to
spend his life with a bit more bliss.
From the life we have (the hours we live) our efficiency in percent is
100 X (hours_happy / hours_lived).
Never mind the species, it will likely go dinos ways.

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:03:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

....snip...
With those Cell SPEs running free from interrupts and task-switches, lots
of real time stuff should be possible (if you can find some IO pin :-) ).
It is like having 8 (or 7) embedded processors as assistance.

And those graphics cards are power hungry....

In my view (as electronics designer) we have seen the following trend over
the last 50 years.
Tubes
transistors
chips
LSI (more chips integrated into one)
microcomputers (plus IO integrated).

The IBM PC system with its plugin boards is reaching its physical limits.
It is nice to be able to 'plug in' but the connector of today is Ethernet
(maybe 1Gbit).
The system to plug in of today is the LAN, connected to the Internet.

So it is a 'natural' to make a box with no slots to plug in, but a simple
ethernet connector, and put and much on one chip as possible.
In the case of Cell, 9 processor cores! plus some shared memory.

The consequences will be enormous.
Not only will the whole 'PCI card' industry have to change to RJ45..., MS
Windows will be out.

It may lead to a huge drop in sales for MS, and, as that is a major export
and source of income for the US, to a major dive on the world exchanges.

We see the end of an era.




Yeah, right. And all those stupids make PCIe / AGP cards with tons of
unneeded contacts...or are they in a conspiracy to artificially drive
up the costs of cards, motherboards, etc? ;P All those stupids at AMD
inventing HyperTransport, and all those stupids at Intel trying (so
far, with no success) to beat HT with their own interconnect version?
Re-inventing the wheel? Why they didn't just use your favorite
8-contact RJ45? Or wait, maybe there still is a reason to use
interconnects other than RJ45?
And even before taking on the PC, the not even yet available PS3 will
have to fight for its life against the already hot-selling Xbox made
by the same MS you love to hate.
Just to set it straight - I don't seat on MS board ;(, I don't own
shares of MSFT (well maybe own them indirectly through some mutual
funds), I've never worked for MS, I've never met Gates, or Ballmer,
or any other MS big shot.

NNN

On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 18:10:22 GMT) it happened
" wrote in
:

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 13:03:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

...snip...
With those Cell SPEs running free from interrupts and task-switches, lots
of real time stuff should be possible (if you can find some IO pin :-) ).
It is like having 8 (or 7) embedded processors as assistance.

And those graphics cards are power hungry....

In my view (as electronics designer) we have seen the following trend over
the last 50 years.
Tubes
transistors
chips
LSI (more chips integrated into one)
microcomputers (plus IO integrated).

The IBM PC system with its plugin boards is reaching its physical limits.
It is nice to be able to 'plug in' but the connector of today is Ethernet
(maybe 1Gbit).
The system to plug in of today is the LAN, connected to the Internet.

So it is a 'natural' to make a box with no slots to plug in, but a simple
ethernet connector, and put and much on one chip as possible.
In the case of Cell, 9 processor cores! plus some shared memory.

The consequences will be enormous.
Not only will the whole 'PCI card' industry have to change to RJ45..., MS
Windows will be out.

It may lead to a huge drop in sales for MS, and, as that is a major export
and source of income for the US, to a major dive on the world exchanges.

We see the end of an era.




Yeah, right. And all those stupids make PCIe / AGP cards with tons of
unneeded contacts...or are they in a conspiracy to artificially drive
up the costs of cards, motherboards, etc? ;P All those stupids at AMD
inventing HyperTransport, and all those stupids at Intel trying (so
far, with no success) to beat HT with their own interconnect version?
Yep, reality can hit hard aint it ;-)


Re-inventing the wheel? Why they didn't just use your favorite
8-contact RJ45? Or wait, maybe there still is a reason to use
interconnects other than RJ45?
No, PCB connectors for these high speeds suck, too much current too,
RJ45 has DC decoupling (transformers remember), and this decoupling
is extremely important to prevent ground loops (between different boxes).
Next will be optical.
Yes some connectors will be needed, hard disks in the 'object', power
connectors.
Eventually at even higher speeds the connections between on board chips
will have to be optical.

It was already clear that there were problems with the current processors
and power and f clock, and that is why they go multiple core.
And Cell is an example of 9 cores in one chip, with good interconnect
and local memory.

Sorry to have to bring it to you ;-)

Displays are important, visualizations.. rendering....
Low power, small boxes, no need to ever open these, just connect an other
gadget to the LAN with a simple RJ45 click.... 100 meters cable length...

It is true, webcam ( I have a DCS-900 on RJ45, also works when PC is off
as webserver, watch your place from all over the world), one could of course
have a video tuner (what is 12 Mbits), most new DVD players (Kiss) will have
RJ45 Ethernet, what not?
Upgrade later? Buy a PS4 :-)




And even before taking on the PC, the not even yet available PS3 will
have to fight for its life against the already hot-selling Xbox made
by the same MS you love to hate.
xbox is way below expected sales, way way way below that in Japan,
hardly any games, they did their BEST to lock out Linux, so that already
excludes half the universe + South America... + China as potential market..
alas what a vision.

Much of the connector madness is caused by DRM, for example HDMI.
Close the analog hole? Wrong place wrong place....

Just to set it straight - I don't seat on MS board ;(, I don't own
shares of MSFT (well maybe own them indirectly through some mutual
funds),
Well, you know what wil lhappen now....

I've never worked for MS, I've never met Gates, or Ballmer,
or any other MS big shot.
I think I did not either, better for them too, would have asked him about
Linux.
hehe

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message
...
On a sunny day (Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:23:18 GMT) it happened
" wrote in
:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 20:39:03 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 19 Jan 2006 16:01:22 GMT) it happened
" wrote in
:

On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:28:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje
wrote:

The last one was a close look at the Sony Play-station-3 specs.
Now that has 2x HDMI out, s-video too, Ethernet in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Pl...specifications

And it runs Linux it seems.

So in theory one could use the cheap boxes that already exist for
recording
TV, stream the 12Mbits H264 over ethernet to the play-station-3,
and, as that
can decode H264 even in 180 progressive, interface in HDMI to the
TV.

Then I realized that I could perhaps also use the PS3 as server, as
it
would be on the LAN anyways that way, and can run my web and FTP
server.

Then I realized that as it should be able to run X it should also be
able to
run my applications, StarOffice, newsreader, what not....
Also it is small and silent and fits the ever growing integration
concept,
gives me some interesting games....

I do not have one, but sure am interested to get my hands on one
now.
Then I realized IBM sold the PC business to the Chinese, why sell
something?
You no longer need it, because you have something better,.

IBM is making all Cell processor stuff available to Linux developers
(I
downloaded it some time ago).

Then it hit me:
IS Sony PlayStation-3 the next IBM PC?

In a word: NO. At least not before Bill Gates' blessing in form of
Windows version for Cell/PS3 or some form of emulation as the one
rumored to be in the works for MacOS X. With all due respect to
alternative OSes of all kind, they are marginal next to Windows, and
will stay marginal for the foreseeable future. Even according to the
stats of PC sales. And almost certainly all the data on Linux PC
sales is screwed because most of these PCs end up re-formatted with
pirated Windows in a matter of days, maybe hours after the sale.


LOL, sees mlike Billy The Gates came ito life by buying that quick and
dirty MS DOS so IBM had an OS.

Seems to me IBM had Linux for this one in house and needs no MS.
:-)

I did realize that MS share must now head towards earth....
Because it will take him some time to port MS windows to PlayStation 3
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA WHOaaaaHAHAHAHA LOL hehehe
LOL

You laughed typing the stuff above - the spelling shows. Bill laughs
all the way to the bank - day in, day out. Which laugh is better?

I have seen Bills pictures a couple of times last year, he did not look
so happy.
Maybe this is more philosophical, but money cannot buy happiness.
If Bill went to look for the true self he'd at least have a chance to
spend his life with a bit more bliss.
From the life we have (the hours we live) our efficiency in percent is
100 X (hours_happy / hours_lived).
Never mind the species, it will likely go dinos ways.

Money can't buy happiness, but it can eliminate many sources of worry and
unhappiness. Don't judge people by their photographs.

As for the eventual uses of the PS3 and the cell chip in it or
derivatives of it, it will be interesting to see what happens. Of course
if you have money and want a special version of your own, or a customized
system using it, I can put you in touch with some folks.....

del cecchi

Del Cecchi wrote:


As for the eventual uses of the PS3 and the cell chip in it or
derivatives of it, it will be interesting to see what happens. Of course
if you have money and want a special version of your own, or a customized
system using it, I can put you in touch with some folks.....


As I think I predicted, Mercury Computer Sytems has a product

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3591350722.html

and they have serious customers with natural applications who also have
money. I hope some of those boxes wind up in academic environments.
That's a much more plausible environment for discovering what cell is
really capable of than hacking PS3. It would take a brave soul,
indeed, to jump into that market without first seeing how Mercury makes
out.

RM