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#11
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
In article , VanguardLH wrote:
"daytripper" wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: [...] The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place (both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo. [...] That's some funny stuff right there. Unless you're serious, of course... Cheers! I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the grid? You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a soldering iron? Heat travels. Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to desolder |
#12
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
"GMAN" wrote in message ... In article , VanguardLH wrote: "daytripper" wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: [...] The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place (both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo. [...] That's some funny stuff right there. Unless you're serious, of course... Cheers! I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the grid? You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a soldering iron? Heat travels. Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to desolder Or merely to remove excess solder.... Chris |
#13
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
In article , "Chris S." wrote:
"GMAN" wrote in message ... In article , VanguardLH wrote: "daytripper" wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: [...] The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place (both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo. [...] That's some funny stuff right there. Unless you're serious, of course... Cheers! I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the grid? You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a soldering iron? Heat travels. Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to desolder Or merely to remove excess solder.... Chris True, but if your skill level is that poor, that you need to remove alot of excess solder, you shouldnt really be doing it in the first place. |
#14
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 03:53:53 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
"daytripper" wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: [...] The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place (both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo. [...] That's some funny stuff right there. Unless you're serious, of course... Cheers! I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? Daytrip' is quite well acquainted with the technology. It's a ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with the balls of solder on its pads, It does. The 'B' thing, remember? the mobo come with balls of solder on its grid It does. and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the grid? ....and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It has to be quite closely regulated. You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a soldering iron? Heat travels. You're assuming a lot of things here; nothing on the other side. A matching pattern on the other side with vias connecting them, perfect and matched conduction, and probably a thousand other variables. Might just as well use a toaster oven. Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket. "Knowing how to solder" has nothing to do with it. This is not a normal soldering operation. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you. |
#15
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
"GMAN" wrote:
If you knew how to solder, you would know a solder wick is used to desolder You don't know that you have to heat the solder wick so the solder flows into it? |
#16
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
"Paul" wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: "daytripper" wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:58:33 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: [...] The mobo maker could just make a plastic frame to hold the chip in place (both for position along with affixing to the mobo via spring clip) and the user would use a soldering iron with a tip designed for the BGA grid pattern. The user would buy the mobo they want, the CPU they want, and then do a one-time solder of the CPU onto the mobo. [...] That's some funny stuff right there. Unless you're serious, of course... Cheers! I was serious. You do know what "ball" means in BGA, right? It's a ball of solder. So why can't the chip, even a CPU, come prepped with the balls of solder on its pads, the mobo come with balls of solder on its grid and using feedthroughs so the solder is reached from the backside of the board, and all you have to do is keep the chip pressed against the grid, keep it aligned, heat up the solder gun with a matching grid tip, and just melt all the solder to weld the chip to the grid? You've never applied new solder to the underside of a PCB so it heats the solder on the other side through a feedthrough to use solder wick on the other side when you cannot otherwise reach the other side with a soldering iron? Heat travels. Of course, we're talking about DIY'ers that know how to solder and that it flows towards the heat source and what level of heat to apply and not the boobs that barely know how to push down the level for a ZIF socket. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. You at least want to solder all the balls at the same time. Hence why I said a soldering iron tip that matches the grid you want to solder but assumes you can get heat flow through feedthroughs in the PCB (but that'll make the PCB more expensive so this probably won't happen). I'm not sure a cheap soldering iron (with an array of different tips, like one for BGA wiper tips) is going to work well. It won't have the temperature regulation of a professional soldering station where you can dial in the target temperature and it maintains it during thermal load. I've seen machines that runs the PCB through a hot tin bath (or "wave" that flows over a roller to create a reverse trough). The balls get melted in a row, not the entire grid at once, as the PCB rolls over the wave of solder. You need to preheat the PCB and chips before hitting the solder wave; else, the uneven heating can result in "popcorning" of the chips (their tops pop off). Obviously extremely few home users are going to get a wave soldering machine. The point I'm making is not all of the balls have to melted all at once (but they should be preheated all at once). There is a magic alignment effect, where the wetted contacts tend to "pull" the chip into alignment, such that the chip rotates to the grid of contacts underneath. You want the solder to fill the pads properly, which is going to happen if all the balls melt at the same time and the chip settles into place. But if the chip slides into a carrier to force alignment, something like a modified PLCC socket but made for alignment purposes instead of providing for contacts: http://www.hermann-uwe.de/files/imag...et.preview.jpg then alignment doesn't rely on wet solder flow pulling the chip in place. Yes, this is a socket but that doesn't preclude designing a new socket (which would be much thinner than this) and whose only function is to force alignment of a unsoldered BGA chip along with a temp clip to apply downward pressure (until after soldering is complete then remove the clip and attach the HSF probably using PCB mountings). I'm saying something could be figured out to provide alignment and pressure so a home user with decent soldering skills could install a BGA chip on a prepped grid on a PCB. That doesn't mean it will happen since manufacturers are trying to save on tenths of a cent so adding such an alignment and soldering helper device probably won't happen (unless it comes as an extra you buy separately to use with the BGA chip but then the mobo would have to be designed to allow the space for it). There are a lot of HSFs that are designed for what's there rather than the design of the mobo planning for them. If you were a home user, and desperate for adventure, you could try a toaster oven. That's the closest thing to IR reflow you can arrange for real cheap. The closest I've seen to multiple contact soldering and for cheap is using a pancake griddle on which to lay the prepped PCB with BGA chip atop. Obviously the pancake griddle method is applying heat on the opposite side of the PCB than where the BGA chip gets soldered, so off-side BGA [de]soldering is possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkjOwuSEzKU This next guy uses a pancake griddle but elevates the PCB off of it. That's because this next guy is reflowing the solder rather than replacing the chip. He uses the griddle to up the temperature but a heat gun to elevate to the melting temperatu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coMtQIvlN6E (looks like the guy is in a cramped dorm, ignore the background "noise") Here's another guy using a griddle to preheat, foil tape for a heat guard, and a heat gun to remove the BGA chip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUw7QE_e2c8 So pancake griddle, soldering iron with grid tip, or heat gun are all methods to melt the solder balls. Because these methods may not keep the chip always aligned because they may liquify the solder balls unevenly. That is why I thought of some carrier or holder in which the chip sits and perhaps a spring for a little downward pressure would ensure alignment. A CPU as a BGA chip is going to have a *lot* of contacts versus the smaller BGA chips you encounter. I'm assuming a CPU is going to be a much larger BGA chip with a lot more pins thus with more mass and more susceptible to sliding around if the PCB is unlevel. The "carrier" could be something really simple, like just 8 posts, 2 to snug in each corner or the chip, that either come in the mobo or can be inserted and removed in mobo holes when needed. I figure something to help alignment rather than rely on the wetting pull might reduce the number of bogus "faulty" returns to mobo vendors or botched jobs. Somehow I suspect mobo vendors aren't going to allow any soldering and doing such will void any warranty - but then how often do users change their CPUs? By the time the user wants to upgrade or replace a faulty CPU is probably after the mobo warranty has expired. Some people used the toaster oven method, to fix Nvidia GPU solder joints. But I would still put this idea in the "repugnant" category. You have absolutely no control of the temperature profile that way, and the toaster oven is going to be heating all sorts of stuff you don't want heated (think "burned plastic"). That's why even with the pancake griddle method I would think you would want to deflect heat away from the parts you are not soldering. In a couple videos, I see them using foil tape to deflect heat. Another idea would be to use a metal block on the griddle along with some heatsink paste to get the griddle's heat to only apply to the underside of the PCB where you are reflowing the solder under the BGA chip. (Voids caused by excessive moisture level on the solder balls.) I think the moisture problem is caused by using water-based rosin. I haven't looked into this source of soldering defect. I don't know if the use of directed heated air (e.g., heat gun) eliminates the moisture issue. From what little that I read, the moisture problem is not due to ambient moisture in the air but of moisture *inside* the BGA package getting baked out. I'm not sure why a chip maker would permit an atmosphere inside their chip that contained moisture. Seems a defect in or a poor process during manufacturer, and the maker is that slack in building the chip then how much better quality would be the rest of the chip. http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www...4-databook.pdf Section 14.7: Moisture Sensitivity It looks to be a manufacturing problem, not actually a soldering problem. It isn't ambient/outside moisture causing the problem (so it isn't a problem of how you perform the soldering). It's a problem with moisture *inside* the chip that expands and pops off the top of the chip. Whether soldering, applying heated air, or for whatever reason the chip gets exposed to high temperature heat, a moist chip can pop. You could, for example, be using a heat gun on some other component but heat up the bad one to pop its lid. To prevent popcorning, it appears the user of the chip (home users or fab plants) are expected to leave the chip inside the dessicant bag until just prior to use. If the problem isn't of poor manufacture of having excessive moisture inside the chip then it appears the popcorning problem is related to poor handling by the consumer/user of the chip. http://glenbrook.webworksnow3.com/bl...3/bga_fig4.gif With care, I'm told you can get defectivity down to around 1 ball in 100,000. That means, if you solder down a hundred chips each having 1000 balls underneath, one of the chips will have a single bad solder joint. It would take a little effort and expense though, to get that good at it. The results of home users doing such soldering, isn't going to be that good. The typical DIY'er doesn't have $200+ temperature-controlled soldering stations or even the soldering skills for just splicing wires together. I don't remember how many times I've helped with replumbing a house to watch someone apply heat at the joint and think that's where they heat up the solder instead of letting it flow towards the heat by applying to torch past the joint overlap. There's a reason why DIY hardware didn't involve soldering. Hell, I remember working on the test floor where we tested the mainframes and watching some so-called engineers raping a PCB trying unsolder a part and then gobbing on the solder to replace it. I still have memories of one guy that would poke the tip of a soldering iron into a blivet and circle the iron in a conical pattern trying to heat up the solder inside to then suck it out all the while hearing the squeaking of the tip against the dry blivet. I've seen some folks using an soldering gun instead of a soldering iron so they end up using way too much heat in too large an area. Soldering seems almost an inate skill, like whether you can play a piano or just bang your fingers against the keys. Probably a better setup is ordering both the mobo and CPU (BGA) together and having the vendor do the initial soldering for a fee. You get to choose what you want on the mobo but someone with proper gear and expertise does the solder work. Then sometime later when you want to upgrade the CPU, and probably after the mobo warranty has expired, you can try to remove and replace the BGA chip yourself. You can do it hoping the PCB is level and that wetting gives you proper alignment but I would think something to aid alignment would reduce the number of botched jobs by amateurs, like me. I think someone already mentioned using a converter card where the BGA style CPU would get soldered onto a card and the card shoved into a slot. This is reminscent of the Slot 1/2 CPUs. Of course, it means the CPU manufacturers would be producing BGA style chips while someone else was manufacturing the cards and doing the soldering for you so you end up buying the BGA CPU already on a card. Mobo makers have to follow by providing CPU slots. Of course, all of this "what do we do know" conjecture is based on someone's hypothesis of what Intel /might/ do. The computer industry is rife with technologies or schemes that dead ended. Remember the microchannel bus? Was it the EISA hosts where if you lost the floppy then you might not be able to boot the computer? I was surprised at the 3 years the SECC/SEPP form (Slot 1) for CPUs lasted considering how often the mobo slot got cracked which resulted in less pressure on the fingers against the card's pins. Several times I had to use cable ties looped together across the top of a Slot 1/2 CPU to hold it down because the mount brackets cracked or broke, or having to scavenge from failed Slot 1 CPUs to dismantle the shell and replace the fan. How long did Microsoft's BOB last? I'm pretty sure if Intel decides to direct its manufacturing to producing only BGA style CPUs that something else will arise to meet the challenge of installing and replacing those CPUs outside the mainline of computer parts makers. Or DIY'ers will have to improve their soldering skills and perhaps their tools from those that don't want to learn and practice getting weed out. Look at what happens with cars. Some folks simply don't want to learn beyond the aspirated engines they grew up with and/or don't want to buy the tools to keep up with the changes. Having to solder or reflow BGA parts will become a differentiating factor in typing the DIY'ers. |
#17
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
"krw" wrote:
...and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It has to be quite closely regulated. Hence why the DIY'ers that will do this task are those that have soldering stations. You know, the ones where you can dial in the temperature. However, as pointing out in the videos to which I link, others have been inventive in finding cheaper means of doing the soldering, reflow, or desoldering. "Knowing how to solder" has nothing to do with it. This is not a normal soldering operation. It is if you have the right tools (or not how to fab your own gerry rig). Again, the videos show NON-professionals doing the work and they are not using $300 soldering or desoldering stations, either. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you. It means they will void the warranty. As I mentioned, the most likely scenario is that you order the CPU you want with the mobo you want and the combo gets delivered to you with that setup. A jobber at some point after the chip manufacturer but before the retail/online vendor does the work or is contracted out or however the vendor wants to get made the hardware config that you order. Sometime later you want to replace the CPU because it went bad, like you overclocked or overvolted it, or you want a better CPU. Do you really buy a mobo with a CPU and then immediately discard the CPU to buy a more powerful CPU and put that one in? No, you buy your hardware list, fab the parts together, and sometime later decide to upgrade. Users of mobos that have expired their warranty won't care about what the retailer will sell them since they already have it, it's out of warranty, and they've decided they will change the CPU. I don't see that this will impact the initial or first sale of hardware when you fab your homebrew host. You're going to build your shopping list, get the parts, and slap it together. Sometime later you decide to make changes. In this case, it's not a question of whether a retailer will sell you a CPU and mobo separately and warrantly their users soldering expertise. It'll be whether or not non-commercial or non-volume users can purchase the BGA CPUs to acquire them to sometime later swap out those CPUs. If you can't buy one BGA CPU at a time, it's not likely you're going to buy 100 or 1000 of them to change the CPU on your one home computer. My bet is some volume buyer will resell the individual units at a markup and make some good money at it. Of course, they aren't going to include a warranty with it. |
#18
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 22:57:20 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
"krw" wrote: ...and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It has to be quite closely regulated. Hence why the DIY'ers that will do this task are those that have soldering stations. You know, the ones where you can dial in the temperature. However, as pointing out in the videos to which I link, others have been inventive in finding cheaper means of doing the soldering, reflow, or desoldering. "Soldering stations" are *NOT* intended for BGA work. boggle You need at least hot air and preferably a controlled oven for this. "Knowing how to solder" has nothing to do with it. This is not a normal soldering operation. It is if you have the right tools (or not how to fab your own gerry rig). Again, the videos show NON-professionals doing the work and they are not using $300 soldering or desoldering stations, either. Unbelievable. Not having sockets doesn't mean you can't DIY. It means the DIY'er will need better skills than pushing stuff into a socket or slot. It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you. It means they will void the warranty. No, it means that they will not be in this market at all. The number of DIYers who can do this is close enough to zero that it's not a business. As I mentioned, the most likely scenario is that you order the CPU you want with the mobo you want and the combo gets delivered to you with that setup. No, the most likely scenario is that this business won't exist. If there is any DIY market, you'll buy the board with the CPU (and perhaps the memory, too). A jobber at some point after the chip manufacturer but before the retail/online vendor does the work or is contracted out or however the vendor wants to get made the hardware config that you order. Sometime later you want to replace the CPU because it went bad, like you overclocked or overvolted it, or you want a better CPU. Do you really buy a mobo with a CPU and then immediately discard the CPU to buy a more powerful CPU and put that one in? No, you buy your hardware list, fab the parts together, and sometime later decide to upgrade. Users of mobos that have expired their warranty won't care about what the retailer will sell them since they already have it, it's out of warranty, and they've decided they will change the CPU. No, you buy a new board, too. The choices of CPUs will be very limited, too. I don't see that this will impact the initial or first sale of hardware when you fab your homebrew host. You're going to build your shopping list, get the parts, and slap it together. Sometime later you decide to make changes. In this case, it's not a question of whether a retailer will sell you a CPU and mobo separately and warrantly their users soldering expertise. It'll be whether or not non-commercial or non-volume users can purchase the BGA CPUs to acquire them to sometime later swap out those CPUs. If you can't buy one BGA CPU at a time, it's not likely you're going to buy 100 or 1000 of them to change the CPU on your one home computer. My bet is some volume buyer will resell the individual units at a markup and make some good money at it. Of course, they aren't going to include a warranty with it. You're dreaming. |
#19
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
"krw" wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: "krw" wrote: ...and how are you going to regulate the temperature on this mass? It has to be quite closely regulated. Hence why the DIY'ers that will do this task are those that have soldering stations. You know, the ones where you can dial in the temperature. However, as pointing out in the videos to which I link, others have been inventive in finding cheaper means of doing the soldering, reflow, or desoldering. "Soldering stations" are *NOT* intended for BGA work. boggle You need at least hot air and preferably a controlled oven for this. How does having a soldering station preclude your ownership of a heat gun? How are you going to cleanup the solder left behind after removing the BGA chip? With a little soldering iron repeatedly trying to wick up a few solder remnants at a time? Or put a wide tip on the station iron, lay it across a length of wick, and use the whole length to capture a lot of solder remnant at a time? Please don't generalize some $40 soldering station with those costing hundreds that ARE designed for BGA rework. Sorry if you mistook my "soldering station" to mean some style that isn't designed for the task. If I said you need a new tire, I really shouldn't have to specify what tire fits your car. Besides, that small and simple soldering iron station with temperature control still suffices for BGA rework, too. If you watched the videos, you'll see that removing the BGA device doesn't require the use of the lowly soldering iron station, and neither does the installation of the BGA chip. Users have found pancake griddles (with their temperature control) and heat guns sufficient for removal and installation. Yet that lowly soldering iron-only station does come in handy when cleaning up all the solder remnant and re-balling the BGA chip. It means that no retailer is going to sell this stuff to you. It means they will void the warranty. No, it means that they will not be in this market at all. The number of DIYers who can do this is close enough to zero that it's not a business. So you're claiming the DIY'ers are incapable of learning new skills. If some college dude in a cramped dorm can use a pancake griddle and heat gun to reflow the solder for a BGA GPU to fix cold solder joints and another guy can use the same griddle and heat gun to replace a BGA chip, why can't others? The hardest part of the entire process is the time to protect the area outside the chip by applying foil tape (as a heat deflector for the heat gun's airflow), all the solder and rosin cleanup after removing the BGA chip, and re-balling the BGA chip and none of that requires super-wizard skills by a DIY'er. Doing the desoldering to remove and soldering to install are the easy parts. It's a lot like painting a house: most of the effort and time is spent in preparation and the actual painting goes quick and easy. Yes, there are different levels of DIY'ers. Sorry, but I'm not terribly concerned about the lowest level of them that have troubles figuring out why an AGP video card won't fit in a PCIe slot or cannot figure out how to determine the orientation of a non-polarized IDE ribbon cable. Ever visited the Darwin Awards site to know the premise of its "awards"? Some folks should never be an DIY'er but that doesn't stop them. As I mentioned, the most likely scenario is that you order the CPU you want with the mobo you want and the combo gets delivered to you with that setup. No, the most likely scenario is that this business won't exist. If there is any DIY market, you'll buy the board with the CPU (and perhaps the memory, too). Isn't that what I said? The initial purchase when you spec out your build would be to decide on a mobo+CPU combo and that's what gets delivered to you with the CPU already soldered on. Hell, you can do that now with ZIF-socketed CPUs by buying a combo the vendor already came up with (and usually includes a bundling discount): they pre-install the CPU into the ZIF socket and may even attach the HSF (although I still prefer to do my own so to including lapping of the CPU metal plate and the heatsink and making sure the proper dose of good thermal paste gets used). So, yes, the initial buy will have the CPU already soldered to the mobo. So how does that stop DIY'ers from upgrading their CPUs if they don't care about warranties or after the warranty has expired? Only if they cannot get the BGA CPU chips will stop them. Sorry, but I don't think the market for BGA CPUs is unsustainable so I believe there will be a market for them - but at a price premium since such DIY'ers are not volume buyers - and there will be warranty (which means the DIY'er has no recourse if they get a bad chip). A jobber at some point after the chip manufacturer but before the retail/online vendor does the work or is contracted out or however the vendor wants to get made the hardware config that you order. Sometime later you want to replace the CPU because it went bad, like you overclocked or overvolted it, or you want a better CPU. Do you really buy a mobo with a CPU and then immediately discard the CPU to buy a more powerful CPU and put that one in? No, you buy your hardware list, fab the parts together, and sometime later decide to upgrade. Users of mobos that have expired their warranty won't care about what the retailer will sell them since they already have it, it's out of warranty, and they've decided they will change the CPU. No, you buy a new board, too. The choices of CPUs will be very limited, too. Now you're guessing even worse than the hypothesis claimed in the article that started this whole discussion. You don't know and neither do I as to what will happen regarding availability of single-unit purchases of BGA CPUs. I suspicion there will be availability and disagree with you. You suspicion that there will not be availability and disagree with me. So, so far, we've agreed to disagree. I don't see that this will impact the initial or first sale of hardware when you fab your homebrew host. You're going to build your shopping list, get the parts, and slap it together. Sometime later you decide to make changes. In this case, it's not a question of whether a retailer will sell you a CPU and mobo separately and warrantly their users soldering expertise. It'll be whether or not non-commercial or non-volume users can purchase the BGA CPUs to acquire them to sometime later swap out those CPUs. If you can't buy one BGA CPU at a time, it's not likely you're going to buy 100 or 1000 of them to change the CPU on your one home computer. My bet is some volume buyer will resell the individual units at a markup and make some good money at it. Of course, they aren't going to include a warranty with it. You're dreaming. Oh, you're one of those "odd" purchasers that build by buying parts that you will immediately discard to then buy some other part to replace those you already purchased. So how do you buy mobos and CPUs now? Do you really buy a mobo one month and then months later buy a CPU for it? Do you really buy both a mobo and CPU (separately or as a combo) but upon delivery discard the CPU and go buy another CPU? Or do you buy the mobo and CPU and *use* that hardware in your build? I didn't say there would be as great a selection of combinations of mobos and CPUs. The selection will probably be less as vendors will offer only certain combinations. This in itself will eliminate consumers getting the wrong parts and reduce returns to the vendors. You will pick from what BGA CPU and mobo combos the vendors do provide just like you do now with CPU and mobo purchases. If the CPU makers go to BGA chips and force the mobo makers to follow then the computer vendors will have to follow, too. So, yes, you CAN make your inital purchase with a BGA CPU and mobo combo and, no, that doesn't preclude you from changing the BGA CPU later whether you do it, get a more expert friend to do it, or pay a shop to do it. The videos show doing BGA is not rocket science. It doesn't even require high-tech equipment. It obviously will void any warranty but by the time you upgrade the warranty is irrelevant. If, as you claim, the consumer is going to buy a new BGA CPU and mobo combo as the upgrade or replacement, they're going to still have that old BGA CPU and mobo hanging around so why not experiment since you have nothing to lose. If, as I claim, DIY'ers won't care about warranties, especially after they've expired by the time they choose to upgrade, and they'll be using low-tech gear to desolder, cleanup, and solder the BGA stuff. So it doesn't seem your argument really hinges on whether DIY'ers can learn how to handle BGA chips (since I've already shown that's not true by reference to videos). Instead it really hinges on availability of the BGA CPUs for single-unit purchases (i.e., where a user can buy just one). From what I've seen at eBay, even when something is normally available only through volume purchases, someone goes ahead anyway to buy a 1000 for their own use of one and then sells off the rest either individually or in lot sales. |
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The end of the road for the DIY PC?
VanguardLH wrote:
The poster "Motor T" above, has already debunked this idea for desktops at least. The plan is for laptops. So we don't have to worry about kludges quite yet. Paul |
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