home built PCs vs. factory PCs

In the past, usually someone helped me get home built PCs. That is,
parts were all ordered, such as the casing, drives, motherboard, RAM,
etc., and put together. Is it much cheaper that way? What are the
advantages and disadvantages? Any problems with those Compaqs?

-
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8adrh/news.html (profile) --Tim923 My email is valid.

Putting together your own computer is invariably more expensive than buying a
comparable brand-name computer because the brand-name "manufacturers" get deep
discounts on all parts and software compared to the one-off prices you would
pay.

The key word here is "comparable". If you have any unique requirements in terms
of physical dimensions, number of drive bays, color of chassis, specialized
devices, and selection of electronic parts to go inside, you may be better off
building. Same if you are pretty sure you may want to upgrade in the future,
especiallly adding more drives and other devices. CPU upgrades are at the point
of diminishing returns, given the high clock speeds of either Intel or AMD CPUs.
Memory upgrades are memory upgrades are memory upgrades, because eveyone now
uses commodity off-the-shelf memory, but you pay more for Compaq (or IBM, or
Toshiba, or Gateway) memory because the modules have stickers on them to
identify them as "genuine" Compaq.

Personally, I would avoid Compaq Presarios based on my experience servicing
them. They are cheaply made and loaded with easy-to-break plastic parts and
low-end electronic components. They are your typical computer aimed at the
consumer market. The Compaq Evos I've had my hands on seem as well made as
their competitors such as IBM or Dell. But your choice all depends on what you
want to do... Ben Myers

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:13:17 GMT, Tim923 wrote:

In the past, usually someone helped me get home built PCs. That is,
parts were all ordered, such as the casing, drives, motherboard, RAM,
etc., and put together. Is it much cheaper that way? What are the
advantages and disadvantages? Any problems with those Compaqs?

-
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8adrh/news.html (profile) --Tim923 My email is valid.

One more point: Recent vintage Compaq tower and desktop computers, whether
cheap low-end or better made business-class, now all seem to use pretty standard
hardware components. In the past, a major criticism of Compaq was its extensive
use of highly proprietary parts, many with wierd shapes, so maintenance and
repair costs were excessive. But market pressures, especially ever less
expensive products, have induced Compaq to use more standard parts. It costs
more money to have a special production run of "special" parts, when special
only means hard to replace, not especially better than the competition. And
then there are the design costs, which are higher than for pre-built standard
hardware... Ben Myers

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:13:17 GMT, Tim923 wrote:

In the past, usually someone helped me get home built PCs. That is,
parts were all ordered, such as the casing, drives, motherboard, RAM,
etc., and put together. Is it much cheaper that way? What are the
advantages and disadvantages? Any problems with those Compaqs?

-
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8adrh/news.html (profile) --Tim923 My email is valid.

Thanks. I'll also check what Dell and IBM have for desktops. My
current system is in its final days: 300MHz, no DVD drive, no USB
ports, a semi-malfunctioning sound card, a damaged floppy drive,
frequent blue-screen freezes, several minutes to boot. It's too slow
to run Windows XP or Microsoft.NET well.

-
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8adrh/news.html (profile) --Tim923 My email is valid.

Not anymore, Ben. The last 2 Presarios I've bought, a S5200CL and the one
I'm now using, a SR1000Z, use Asus motherboards, Seagate and WD 7.2K HDs,
the same GeForce cards you buy in the stores, etc. About the only cheap part
in either was the modems which I do not use. The SR1000Z I have is as well
built as the last 2 Dells I had, a 4550 and a 2400. I would agree with you
on Presarios of 2 years ago, or so.
HH

ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers) wrote in message
...
Putting together your own computer is invariably more expensive than
buying a
comparable brand-name computer because the brand-name "manufacturers" get
deep
discounts on all parts and software compared to the one-off prices you
would
pay.

The key word here is "comparable". If you have any unique requirements in
terms
of physical dimensions, number of drive bays, color of chassis,
specialized
devices, and selection of electronic parts to go inside, you may be better
off
building. Same if you are pretty sure you may want to upgrade in the
future,
especiallly adding more drives and other devices. CPU upgrades are at the
point
of diminishing returns, given the high clock speeds of either Intel or AMD
CPUs.
Memory upgrades are memory upgrades are memory upgrades, because eveyone
now
uses commodity off-the-shelf memory, but you pay more for Compaq (or IBM,
or
Toshiba, or Gateway) memory because the modules have stickers on them to
identify them as "genuine" Compaq.

Personally, I would avoid Compaq Presarios based on my experience
servicing
them. They are cheaply made and loaded with easy-to-break plastic parts
and
low-end electronic components. They are your typical computer aimed at
the
consumer market. The Compaq Evos I've had my hands on seem as well made
as
their competitors such as IBM or Dell. But your choice all depends on
what you
want to do... Ben Myers

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:13:17 GMT, Tim923 wrote:

In the past, usually someone helped me get home built PCs. That is,
parts were all ordered, such as the casing, drives, motherboard, RAM,
etc., and put together. Is it much cheaper that way? What are the
advantages and disadvantages? Any problems with those Compaqs?

-
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8adrh/news.html (profile) --Tim923 My email
is valid.

Competition and sagging market share have forced some changes... Ben

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:22:02 -0400, "HH" wrote:

Not anymore, Ben. The last 2 Presarios I've bought, a S5200CL and the one
I'm now using, a SR1000Z, use Asus motherboards, Seagate and WD 7.2K HDs,
the same GeForce cards you buy in the stores, etc. About the only cheap part
in either was the modems which I do not use. The SR1000Z I have is as well
built as the last 2 Dells I had, a 4550 and a 2400. I would agree with you
on Presarios of 2 years ago, or so.
HH

ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers) wrote in message
...
Putting together your own computer is invariably more expensive than
buying a
comparable brand-name computer because the brand-name "manufacturers" get
deep
discounts on all parts and software compared to the one-off prices you
would
pay.

The key word here is "comparable". If you have any unique requirements in
terms
of physical dimensions, number of drive bays, color of chassis,
specialized
devices, and selection of electronic parts to go inside, you may be better
off
building. Same if you are pretty sure you may want to upgrade in the
future,
especiallly adding more drives and other devices. CPU upgrades are at the
point
of diminishing returns, given the high clock speeds of either Intel or AMD
CPUs.
Memory upgrades are memory upgrades are memory upgrades, because eveyone
now
uses commodity off-the-shelf memory, but you pay more for Compaq (or IBM,
or
Toshiba, or Gateway) memory because the modules have stickers on them to
identify them as "genuine" Compaq.

Personally, I would avoid Compaq Presarios based on my experience
servicing
them. They are cheaply made and loaded with easy-to-break plastic parts
and
low-end electronic components. They are your typical computer aimed at
the
consumer market. The Compaq Evos I've had my hands on seem as well made
as
their competitors such as IBM or Dell. But your choice all depends on
what you
want to do... Ben Myers

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:13:17 GMT, Tim923 wrote:

In the past, usually someone helped me get home built PCs. That is,
parts were all ordered, such as the casing, drives, motherboard, RAM,
etc., and put together. Is it much cheaper that way? What are the
advantages and disadvantages? Any problems with those Compaqs?

-
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze8adrh/news.html (profile) --Tim923 My email
is valid.

Look further before assuming they must be the same parts.
To assemble a machine, detailed specs are required on every
component. Brand name manufacturers require details beyond
what the home builder even understands. HP Laser Printers
once demonstrated the concept. The Intel processor used in
that HP printer had a minor defect. No problem for others.
But HP detected the problem, then demanded and got Intel to
redesign that processor. Asus may also meet special demands
from Compaq that make that board in a Compaq superior.

Most every laptop is built by the same company in Taiwan.
So why are some laptops better than others? Again,
differences are in specifications - details demanded by the
brand name. Just more reasons why the brand name machines
cost less.

A most glaring example are many clone power supplies that
don't even meet Intel specs. And yet computer assemblers will
swear they saved money. A massive computer parts failure -
that must never occur with a property designed power supply -
is directly traceable to the human who did not spend an hour
to first learn what that power supply must contain. Brand
name computer manufacturers (unlike home built machines) make
sure their computers contain functions that were even defacto
standard 30 years ago.

Components sometimes don't work well together. Again, the
brand name system eliminates that surprise AND provides
software corrections for any strange problem. Brand name
machines also provide comprehensive diagnostics even
configured for that unique machine. Many details and
undesirable surprises are solved, in advance, by brand name
machines.

Benchmark for any minimally acceptable machine.
Manufacturer provides comprehensive diagnostics - for free.
Yes some brand name machines have become so inferior that they
don't even provide comprehensive diagnostics.

They make look equivalent. But you don't know until you
first study detailed specs. Asus will not even provide such
specs. Assembler can only guess that two boards are
identical.

HH wrote:
Not anymore, Ben. The last 2 Presarios I've bought, a S5200CL and the one
I'm now using, a SR1000Z, use Asus motherboards, Seagate and WD 7.2K HDs,
the same GeForce cards you buy in the stores, etc. About the only cheap part
in either was the modems which I do not use. The SR1000Z I have is as well
built as the last 2 Dells I had, a 4550 and a 2400. I would agree with you
on Presarios of 2 years ago, or so.
HH

"Asus may also meet special demands from Compaq that make that board in a Compaq
superior." Or inferior, especially with HP ownership, depending on how one
looks at these things.

Asus P3 motherboards power many HP Pavilion computers. An analysis of the
typical Asus OEM board in an HP box shows that many BIOS functions have been
stripped away to make the BIOS idiot-proof, reducing the need for support caused
by someone lamely tinkering with a BIOS about which he/she knows little. In
other words, altho the retail Asus boards are known for features enabling one to
overclock and otherwise tweak, DO NOT expect the same in an HPaq box with Asus
board. Not even close.

HP is not alone in this regard. Most name brand manufacturers are probably even
barred from having BIOS overclocking tweaks by their contracts with Intel.
Dell, IBM, and Gateway BIOSes do not have BIOS tweaks in them either, especially
since many of these boards are designed by Intel with an Intel BIOS.

Bottom line: Build your own if you want to play with a motherboard BIOS or
experiment with overclocking... Ben Myers

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:08:17 -0400, w_tom wrote:

Look further before assuming they must be the same parts.
To assemble a machine, detailed specs are required on every
component. Brand name manufacturers require details beyond
what the home builder even understands. HP Laser Printers
once demonstrated the concept. The Intel processor used in
that HP printer had a minor defect. No problem for others.
But HP detected the problem, then demanded and got Intel to
redesign that processor. Asus may also meet special demands
from Compaq that make that board in a Compaq superior.

Most every laptop is built by the same company in Taiwan.
So why are some laptops better than others? Again,
differences are in specifications - details demanded by the
brand name. Just more reasons why the brand name machines
cost less.

A most glaring example are many clone power supplies that
don't even meet Intel specs. And yet computer assemblers will
swear they saved money. A massive computer parts failure -
that must never occur with a property designed power supply -
is directly traceable to the human who did not spend an hour
to first learn what that power supply must contain. Brand
name computer manufacturers (unlike home built machines) make
sure their computers contain functions that were even defacto
standard 30 years ago.

Components sometimes don't work well together. Again, the
brand name system eliminates that surprise AND provides
software corrections for any strange problem. Brand name
machines also provide comprehensive diagnostics even
configured for that unique machine. Many details and
undesirable surprises are solved, in advance, by brand name
machines.

Benchmark for any minimally acceptable machine.
Manufacturer provides comprehensive diagnostics - for free.
Yes some brand name machines have become so inferior that they
don't even provide comprehensive diagnostics.

They make look equivalent. But you don't know until you
first study detailed specs. Asus will not even provide such
specs. Assembler can only guess that two boards are
identical.

HH wrote:
Not anymore, Ben. The last 2 Presarios I've bought, a S5200CL and the one
I'm now using, a SR1000Z, use Asus motherboards, Seagate and WD 7.2K HDs,
the same GeForce cards you buy in the stores, etc. About the only cheap part
in either was the modems which I do not use. The SR1000Z I have is as well
built as the last 2 Dells I had, a 4550 and a 2400. I would agree with you
on Presarios of 2 years ago, or so.
HH

Re Asus boards in Presarios, the BIOS, although less feature rich than a non
OEM version still offers more setup options than earlier Presarios, Plus it
offers hardware monitoring capability, at least on my last 2 Presarios. On
the SR1000Z the generic Asus PC Probe software works beautifully, reporting
voltages, fan speeds and CPU and case temps. Strangely enough PC probe did
not function on the S5200CL but Motherboard Monitor 5 did and even had a
selection for the Asus A7N8X-LA motherboard that Presario used.
HH



ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers) wrote in message
...
"Asus may also meet special demands from Compaq that make that board in a
Compaq
superior." Or inferior, especially with HP ownership, depending on how
one
looks at these things.

Asus P3 motherboards power many HP Pavilion computers. An analysis of the
typical Asus OEM board in an HP box shows that many BIOS functions have
been
stripped away to make the BIOS idiot-proof, reducing the need for support
caused
by someone lamely tinkering with a BIOS about which he/she knows little.
In
other words, altho the retail Asus boards are known for features enabling
one to
overclock and otherwise tweak, DO NOT expect the same in an HPaq box with
Asus
board. Not even close.

HP is not alone in this regard. Most name brand manufacturers are
probably even
barred from having BIOS overclocking tweaks by their contracts with Intel.
Dell, IBM, and Gateway BIOSes do not have BIOS tweaks in them either,
especially
since many of these boards are designed by Intel with an Intel BIOS.

Bottom line: Build your own if you want to play with a motherboard BIOS
or
experiment with overclocking... Ben Myers

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:08:17 -0400, w_tom wrote:

Look further before assuming they must be the same parts.
To assemble a machine, detailed specs are required on every
component. Brand name manufacturers require details beyond
what the home builder even understands. HP Laser Printers
once demonstrated the concept. The Intel processor used in
that HP printer had a minor defect. No problem for others.
But HP detected the problem, then demanded and got Intel to
redesign that processor. Asus may also meet special demands
from Compaq that make that board in a Compaq superior.

Most every laptop is built by the same company in Taiwan.
So why are some laptops better than others? Again,
differences are in specifications - details demanded by the
brand name. Just more reasons why the brand name machines
cost less.

A most glaring example are many clone power supplies that
don't even meet Intel specs. And yet computer assemblers will
swear they saved money. A massive computer parts failure -
that must never occur with a property designed power supply -
is directly traceable to the human who did not spend an hour
to first learn what that power supply must contain. Brand
name computer manufacturers (unlike home built machines) make
sure their computers contain functions that were even defacto
standard 30 years ago.

Components sometimes don't work well together. Again, the
brand name system eliminates that surprise AND provides
software corrections for any strange problem. Brand name
machines also provide comprehensive diagnostics even
configured for that unique machine. Many details and
undesirable surprises are solved, in advance, by brand name
machines.

Benchmark for any minimally acceptable machine.
Manufacturer provides comprehensive diagnostics - for free.
Yes some brand name machines have become so inferior that they
don't even provide comprehensive diagnostics.

They make look equivalent. But you don't know until you
first study detailed specs. Asus will not even provide such
specs. Assembler can only guess that two boards are
identical.

HH wrote:
Not anymore, Ben. The last 2 Presarios I've bought, a S5200CL and the
one
I'm now using, a SR1000Z, use Asus motherboards, Seagate and WD 7.2K
HDs,
the same GeForce cards you buy in the stores, etc. About the only cheap
part
in either was the modems which I do not use. The SR1000Z I have is as
well
built as the last 2 Dells I had, a 4550 and a 2400. I would agree with
you
on Presarios of 2 years ago, or so.
HH

Motherboard monitor could be another parameter different
between brand name and clone versions. Clone boards often use
components of crude (less expensive accuracy which is why
motherboard monitor is not sufficient measure computer DC
voltages. A motherboard monitor first must be calibrated with
a 3.5 digit multimeter before setting alarm thresholds.

Same board for a brand name company may demand components of
better tolerance so that motherboard monitor is sufficiently
accurate. Of course we don't know, do we. Clone version
does not provide a long list of numerical specs on each
motherboard function - including motherboard monitor. Clone
boards are not being sold, typically, to people who even know
how electricity works. Better to not provide any facts. The
brand name computer engineer would never stand for that
nonsense. A specification for that motherboard would be
pages.

Again, we can only speculate on the differences because, for
example, clone motherboards don't even provide sufficient
information. They are selling to people who don't even demand
basic numerical facts. We do know that motherboard monitors
are notorious for poor tolerances; require calibration with
the 3.5 digit meter. That could be another difference between
a brand name version verses a clone version.

HH wrote:
Re Asus boards in Presarios, the BIOS, although less feature rich than a non
OEM version still offers more setup options than earlier Presarios, Plus it
offers hardware monitoring capability, at least on my last 2 Presarios. On
the SR1000Z the generic Asus PC Probe software works beautifully, reporting
voltages, fan speeds and CPU and case temps. Strangely enough PC probe did
not function on the S5200CL but Motherboard Monitor 5 did and even had a
selection for the Asus A7N8X-LA motherboard that Presario used.
HH