Where does a former Dell customer go?

Ben Myers wrote:

Finally, go build your own. Then you will have no one to blame for poor
quality except yourself... Ben Myers

I'll second that...it's really not all that hard to do and you'll have
the satisfaction of knowing that you did it.

Bob

Ben Myers wrote:

Last of all... The "retail" computer systems sold in most of the mass
market outlets are unimpressive piles of electronics, tin, plastic, and
screws. I don't care what brand it is. If the computer is sold retail,
it is really made cheaply because all the computer manufacturers can
afford to deal with the customer on a one-off basis and tell the
customer to go screw himself, or maybe screw him with very high repair
costs and essentially useless warranties. In short, I am tarring and
feathering ALL the stuff you see at Best Buy, Circuit City, Walmart,
Staples, Office Max, Office Depot. I walked through each of their
stores after the Black Friday rush had settled down around 6pm, and saw
nothing very good except maybe for the most expensive desktops. I would
not hit a dog in the ass with any of the laptops I saw. Moral? Buy a
business-class computer, e.g. from Dell's small business sales or
equivalent elsewhere... Ben Myers


All true which is why I'll never buy another desktop computer. Start
with an Antec case and you're already lightyears ahead of anything you
can buy pre-built.

Bob

Bob Levine wrote:
Ben Myers wrote:

Last of all... The "retail" computer systems sold in most of the mass
market outlets are unimpressive piles of electronics, tin, plastic,
and screws. I don't care what brand it is. If the computer is sold
retail, it is really made cheaply because all the computer
manufacturers can afford to deal with the customer on a one-off basis
and tell the customer to go screw himself, or maybe screw him with
very high repair costs and essentially useless warranties. In short,
I am tarring and feathering ALL the stuff you see at Best Buy, Circuit
City, Walmart, Staples, Office Max, Office Depot. I walked through
each of their stores after the Black Friday rush had settled down
around 6pm, and saw nothing very good except maybe for the most
expensive desktops. I would not hit a dog in the ass with any of the
laptops I saw. Moral? Buy a business-class computer, e.g. from
Dell's small business sales or equivalent elsewhere... Ben Myers


All true which is why I'll never buy another desktop computer. Start
with an Antec case and you're already lightyears ahead of anything you
can buy pre-built.

Bob

Foxconn makes pretty good cases of the inexpensive variety, ~$50
wholesale. Not nearly as nice, but durable, and no sharp metal edges to
slice and dice fingers... Ben Myers

In ,
Ben Myers typed on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:07:48 -0500:
I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
cars for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak
after 5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.

What era are you talking about? I have a '98 Dodge Ram 1500 which I bought
new. I never did anything to it except front brakes, two tires, and change
the oil every 6,000 miles. Still operates like the day that I got it.

I also have good luck with my two Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) and five Asus
EeePC ('08 era). These Asus are really rugged too. You can drop them over
and over again and they just keep working and working. I like the 7 inch
models since the LCD screens are also well protected on the sides. And the
lid hinges are the sturdiest I have ever seen. So I believe there are still
great American automobiles and computer models out there to find.

--
Bill
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux

BillW50 wrote:
In ,
Ben Myers typed on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:07:48 -0500:
I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
cars for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak
after 5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.

What era are you talking about? I have a '98 Dodge Ram 1500 which I bought
new. I never did anything to it except front brakes, two tires, and change
the oil every 6,000 miles. Still operates like the day that I got it.

I also have good luck with my two Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) and five Asus
EeePC ('08 era). These Asus are really rugged too. You can drop them over
and over again and they just keep working and working. I like the 7 inch
models since the LCD screens are also well protected on the sides. And the
lid hinges are the sturdiest I have ever seen. So I believe there are still
great American automobiles and computer models out there to find.


As always, Bill, you are the exception. Always the exception, and oh,
so, exceptional. Whatever anonymous being you may be.

Ever notice the current state of the US auto industry? It didn't get
that way for nothing. Maybe some coincidence with the better financial
state of Ford, but our family has had some fairly good experiences with
Fords, an Escort wagon and a Mercury Sable wagon, both of which proved
pretty durable... Ben Myers

On Dec 25, 9:48*am, "BillW50" wrote:
,
Ben Myers typed on Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:07:48 -0500:

I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. *It is an
industry-wide trend. *Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
break. *It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with
cars for many years. *A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak
after 5 years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business.
Computers seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.

What era are you talking about? I have a '98 Dodge Ram 1500 which I bought
new. I never did anything to it except front brakes, two tires, and change
the oil every 6,000 miles. Still operates like the day that I got it.

I also have good luck with my two Gateway MX6124 ('06 era) and five Asus
EeePC ('08 era). These Asus are really rugged too. You can drop them over
and over again and they just keep working and working. I like the 7 inch
models since the LCD screens are also well protected on the sides. And the
lid hinges are the sturdiest I have ever seen. So I believe there are still
great American automobiles and computer models out there to find.

--
Bill
3 Asus EEE PC 701G4 ~ 2GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
2 Asus EEE PC 702G8 ~ 1GB RAM ~ 16GB-SDHC
Windows XP SP2 ~ Xandros Linux

My only experience with Gateway has been mixed.... Their support is
excellent (they still distinguish themselves by not offshoring
support). Quality in their retail notebooks is probably a bit below
average. I work my Notebook PC hard (9-12 hours every weekday, 3-6
hours on weekends), had to have the motherboard replaced and a power
supply, all was handled promptly. I've had worse luck with other
notebook PCs, my last dell Notebook went through 4 keyboard
replacements in 1 year (to be fair I bought the 3rd and 4th after
market and put them in myself) , 1 motherboard replacement and 2 power
supplies.

I don't abuse my notebook I just work the hell out of it.

Jim Higgins wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:45:36 -0800 (PST), RMZ
wrote:

Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
solutions.

Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.

Sony? You gotta be kidding!

All too true. Just visit the Sony web site and see what info is there.
No service manuals, no parts to order, not much of anything. Ever try
to get parts for any Sony, desktop or laptop? Ever deal with a Sony P4
tower that LOOKS like a vanilla tower, but takes a special power supply?
Ever try to get a replacement Sony motherboard? Spare parts for Sony
systems tend to be very costly when you can find them... Ben Myers

On Dec 25, 2:24*pm, Ben Myers wrote:
Jim Higgins wrote:
On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:45:36 -0800 (PST), RMZ
wrote:

Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
solutions.

Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.

Sony? *You gotta be kidding!

All too true. *Just visit the Sony web site and see what info is there.
* No service manuals, no parts to order, not much of anything. *Ever try
to get parts for any Sony, desktop or laptop? *Ever deal with a Sony P4
tower that LOOKS like a vanilla tower, but takes a special power supply?
* Ever try to get a replacement Sony motherboard? *Spare parts for Sony
systems tend to be very costly when you can find them... Ben Myers

I didn't know about the problems with SONY parts, but it doesn't
surprise me. However, I see (if you believe Consumer Reports) their
overall customer satisfaction rate is a bit higher than Dell. Dell
really innovated with the service tag support system (key in your tag
# on the website and everything you need is there). Gateway and HP do
the exact same thing at this point.

When it comes to obtaining parts for do-it-yourself jobs, I've always
had the best luck with Gateway thanks to Mundo Corp http://www.mundocorp.com/
It's not that you can't obtain replacement parts for Dell's although
as horrid as their support currently is (again, it's a shameful mess
that left me with such an incredibly bad series of experiences it's
hard to fathom I was dealing with Dell) I really can't say how that
would go today, it's just you certainly won't get the parts
discounted. Mundo Corp (aftermarket Gateway parts supplier) sells to
the public and does so at bargain pricing.

Just a quick scan of stock prices over 5-year period, comparing:
Apple, HP, Acer and Dell it's clear Dell is the most troubled company
(today their stock is worth 1/3 of what is was five years ago... Times
are tough, but that is far below the norm compared to the other
companies I mentioned). That's poor management as a consumer I
immediately think of Michael Dell's smiling mug. Wonder how it feels
to be one tech's elite billionaries and to know you're sailed your
company down **** creek.

All he has to do is allow the company to take a bit less in profits
(funny how corporations just can't do that, gotta love what American
Capitalism has become), give that back to consumers in form an
outstanding (localized) support and better pricing. I'm just glad our
newly elected President is going to change some the perks corporations
have had in offshoring (I hope anyway... God help us if we continue
down the path we've been on). None the less I love to see large
corporations learn the lesson the hard way (cough, bankruptcy) when
it's deserved and in Dells case the public figures aren't leaning well
in their favor.

If I could meet Michael Dell I'd ask him "Why have you allowed your
build quality and customer support quality to slip? Why have you
allowed Apple, et al. to build a better quality product... or a
cheaper product? Where does Dell fit in, because you aren't a bargain
hunters friend and you're not a friend of customers looking for
outstanding quality. It seems your a vendor riding almost solely on
brand recondition. That might work fine if you're selling Soda Pop (no
wait, "New Coke" did fail in the 80's), but in tech you're just
pulling your pants down and saying "here's my ass, kick it". Maybe I
would just make it short and sweet "what the hell are you thinking?"

"RMZ" wrote in message
...
In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
available by this direct PC maker company.

In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were a step
ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
have changed.

Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
support, the experience I won't soon forget

I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)

The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.

Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.

Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
competitive.

Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
etc...) that's all bull****. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
American companies.

Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.

If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
solutions.

Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.

Sad but true, My company who have had a number of years as Dell customers
just went to them about ordering 100 computers and was sadly disappointed.
A local shop some how was entered into the mix and for a competitive price
gave us what we wanted. Surprise 3 machines were DOA! One call and by
mid-afternoon all 3 were replaced. Down side they do not offer 24/7
support. Counter, we don't need 24/7 support. In-house IT takes care of
that. So there do a few dollars that Dell will never see again.

Additionally the local guys worked with our apps guys and vendors to make
sure the systems came onboard loaded for the ops floor. Not sure what the
cost savings on that would be, at least IT didn't have to ghost images or
spend more than about 10-15 minutes per machine setting them up.

One point that everyone should consider adding to their tech vocabulary is
the NATO Phonetic Alphabet. Not to endorse any political agenda, but as a
simple existing standard that has a fairly broad acceptance. A couple of
times I have run into non-native English speakers who may have had a limited
vocabulary in English, but were quite familiar with the phonetic spelling of
words using the afore mentioned system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

Of all the folks I've ever worked with over the telephone I have to say
there was one fellow with a Scottish Brogue I never could decipher, but
apparently he understood me English and we resolved the issue.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any phonetic alphabets for non-
English languages that might help as well?

"Ben Myers" wrote in message
...
RMZ wrote:
In the last 15 years I have purchased about ten PCs from Dell. I know
that's a small number compared to many businesses, but those were all
most for home use. I also recommended countless family and friends to
buy a Dell. I would praise the quality, support and price made
available by this direct PC maker company.

In those early days (and even up until about five years ago, which is
the last time I can recall contacting them) Dell support was prompt
and the support reps very knowledgeable. Their products were a step
ahead of the competition in quality. It's amazing how quickly things
have changed.

Just in the last six months I know of two instances first hand where
Dell product (in both cases Notebook PCs) had serious defects surface
within a month of usage. I've heard many second hand stories of
problem product coming in such as faulty LCD displays. I've also heard
the horror stories of what someone has to go through to get an
exchange on a product. A bit over a month ago I experienced this first
hand when my mother ordered one of the NetBook DELL PCs. I was in the
room with her as the she placed the order by phone. She told the sales
rep "I need the one with Windows XP" two and a half weeks later an
Ubuntu Linux equipped "NetBook" arrived. I immediately called Dell
support, the experience I won't soon forget

I would take an oath, what follows is not exaggerated: I placed the
call to dell support on a weeknight (around 7:30 PM). I was
transferred three times, tallying all wait times between transfers
this took 35-minutes. When I finally got in touch with someone in
returns/exchanges I was communicating with someone who spoke English
with a very thick accent. My time was limited so I had to arrange to
call back. I asked if there some direct number I could call to speed
up the process the next time I called, I was told "Just call our 800
support number" (so the answer to my question as, No)

The next day I called Dell back. I went through the 800 number again
and once again had to be transferred. This time I was transferred four
times as one rep transferred me to the wrong department (or
something), the wait was 38-minutes before talking to someone who
could help me. At this point not caring how rude I came across I asked
are you based in the US? He paused and said "No sir". While I won't
get into the politics of offshoring support, the bottom line is Dell's
choose to save a money by offshoring this service had a very negative
impact on my customer service experience. It took me about 10-minutes
for him to get down my e-mail address. We kept going through the "J as
in Jack, E as in Easy, S as in Sam... etc..." we must have done that a
dozen times, again his accent was a real wall. I told him what
happened with the order (the notes he had from my call the previous
day were incomplete apparently). I was told there would be a $50
restocking fee (on a $299 computer mind you) and the fault was assumed
to be the customers (i.e. my mother). Since I was in the room with her
as the order was placed and I knew she was in the clear, my mind
immediately raced to all the other non-tech savy grandmothers out
there who might have fallen victim to Dell's return policies. After
some tough words were exchanged I was able to get the restocking fee
removed. I was told a return label would be coming in my e-mail within
three days, this process took over an hour of the phone but I was
happy for it all to be done with it, so I thought.

Three days past and nothing came. I waited longer... still nothing.

Once again I had to call back to Dell support. This time (the week of
Christmas) I was on the phone with them for about an hour and a half
and was transferred four times (again). My conclusion is that Dell,
like so many other great Americans brands has degraded greatly in
terms of product quality and support. The only thing that hasn't
changes is their moderate pricing, which considering the poor quality
of product & support should be considerably less (one would do better
to walk into a local retailer and pick up an Acer or Toshiba branded
product, made in China with lackluster support but at least priced
competitive.

Michael Dell should be absolutely ashamed of what his company has
become. I've heard the stories about "we have to cut cost to compete,
etc...) that's all bull****. Just like every corporation, Dell is an
unchecked machine only intended on making as much money possible for
their shareholders. While some CEOs manage to sell their board of
directors on maintaining a high level of quality, I believe somewhere
along the way Dell has sold out their customers altogether. They seem
to be a B-List computer manufacture still posing as a A-list vendor.
Maybe in that regard what Dell has become is a metaphor for many
American companies.

Regardless of the how & why- I am sad to see that Dell has chosen this
path. It will take a long time (and a lot of convincing) before I ever
purchase or recommend a Dell product again. In the past there have
been companies that burn their customers and I have passionately
rallied against them. With Dell there's isn't a lot of energy in me to
do so, I feel like a family member has stabbed me in the back.

If you choose to buy a Dell, God help you if you need support with it
or you need to exchange it. In Dells place there really isn't another
computer maker. Apple is delivering the support and quality Dell once
was known for, but at the cost of being a luxury priced product and
dual operating system mandate for those of us wanting to stick with
Windows. Of the PC makers: Lenovo and Sony seem to be the best
choices, but neither really offer what Dell does for tailored
solutions.

Goodbye Dell, I'll miss you.

Good luck with whatever brand of computer you buy. Today, I picked up a
6-month old HP laptop for service. Crapped out completely. No warranty
either. And just try to get an HP repaired under warranty, unless you are
a business account. What else have we got in name-brand desktops?
Acer-eGateMachines. Sony. Not much else. More brands of laptops,
though. Well, try to get spare parts for a Sony anything, a Toshiba
laptop, a Fujitsu laptop. Check out the tech support available on the
mfr's web site BEFORE you buy.

I cannot defend the lower quality of the newer Dell boxes. It is an
industry-wide trend. Build them cheap, and throw them away when they
break. It's sort of an accelerated approach to what Detroit did with cars
for many years. A GM, Ford, or Chrysler product would croak after 5
years, so you had to buy a new one and keep them in business. Computers
seem to bite the dust ever more frequently.

Ben, please shut up. I have of late been doing quite well in repairing just
out of warrenty and "The hell with this, we need a new one any way.."
systems. A friend even got a nice XPS, just out of warrenty off Craig's
List. Some one quoted the owner a $200 pricing to replace a bad cooling
fan. Complete system for $75.00.

Finally, go build your own. Then you will have no one to blame for poor
quality except yourself... Ben Myers

Or see a local shop that supports what they sell. As with many things see
your BBB and ask around. Often the price may be a bit more, but the savings
seems less important after you have to deal with the declining levels of
support most big PC companies are providing.

FYI, don't forget your local geeks in the (Whatever) User Group. They may
be a bit deep for the average PC buyers interest, but they know what and who
to see for a deal on PCs, MACs, etc.