SAS / SATA RAID to Fibre?

In article ,
says...

Will wrote:
"Nik Simpson" wrote in message
...
Will wrote:
And experience shows it does commoditize given time.

Your experience with Fibre Channel must be limited ;-)

Well, some aspects of fibre commoditized. You can certainly get the 1
Gbps
fibre switches for next to nothing.



Not because they are a commodity, it's because they are obsolete, a
rather different phenomenon.


2 Gbps still holds a premium, but the
smaller port-count 8 and 16 port Brocades are not going to break any
budgets.


Still not commodity, just very small, and even then when purchased new
they are expensive compared to say 1Gbit Ethernet which *IS* commodotized.


I'm starting to see fibre to SATA JBOD cabinets go used under $1K each, but
still haven't seen that happening with RAID.


New, or on Ebay?


On a low-utilization server, most people would simply stick in a few SCSI
devices on the server and use a hardware RAID controller. I'm trying to
build additional layers into the system so hardware RAID is done off the
computer and there are no single paths of failure from the adapters, the
fibre networks, or the RAID boxes.



Qlogic switches start at about $3k for 10 4Gb ports

& the reason that 1Gb switches are so cheap is that 1Gb FC was such
a misery to make interoperable w/ disparate components
the best part about 2Gb (& now 4Gb) FC is that everything is so interoperable

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"Nik Simpson" wrote in message
...
Well, some aspects of fibre commoditized. You can certainly get the 1
Gbps
fibre switches for next to nothing.

Not because they are a commodity, it's because they are obsolete, a
rather different phenomenon.

You are a victim of marketing. Someone tells you 2 gbps fibre channel is
"obsolete" and so you don't go there anymore and pay premium dollars for the
latest technology. I simply observe real application requirements. And
frankly for many low-use servers, we wouldn't push 1 Gbps of fibre storage
throughput on our highest use day. For a consumer with low performance
requirements, either of the two generations of fibre prior to 4 Gbps work
well enough to do the job that needs to be done.


2 Gbps still holds a premium, but the
smaller port-count 8 and 16 port Brocades are not going to break any
budgets.

Still not commodity, just very small, and even then when purchased new
they are expensive compared to say 1Gbit Ethernet which *IS* commodotized.

To put numbers around that, a typical Brocade 1 Gbps product like the 2250
switch you see going on eBay used for $50 to $150. The 16 port 3800 2 Gbps
switches you see going around $600 to $800. So the 1 Gbps switches are
essentially free and the real cost is your time and materials to make them
work for your application. The 2 Gbps products - if you dedicate about
four ports per target server - end up costing about $150 to $200 per server.
Either choice looks cheap to me.


I'm starting to see fibre to SATA JBOD cabinets go used under $1K each,
but
still haven't seen that happening with RAID.

New, or on Ebay?

Used or surplus product, of course.


On a low-utilization server, most people would simply stick in a few
SCSI
devices on the server and use a hardware RAID controller. I'm trying
to
build additional layers into the system so hardware RAID is done off the
computer and there are no single paths of failure from the adapters, the
fibre networks, or the RAID boxes.

You might do better looking at iSCSI for this type of application.

Most of the messages about iSCSI I see posted make me think that maybe iSCSI
is still in beta. I've fallen too many times into the trap of buying
what looks cheap up front and end up losing a ton of money on the back end
making it work. Maybe when iSCSI becomes plug and play I would reconsider.
For my tastes, fibre is proven, is easy enough to make work, and is now
quite cheap. Once SAS gets commoditized, and someone releases a high
volume low cost SATA RAID to fibre solution, we'll have something that is
energy efficient (i.e., low cost to operate 24x7), space efficient, and
cheap. At that point every server in my shop would have redundant
connections to two such boxes. For now I guess I'll keep dreaming.

--
Will

Will wrote:
"Nik Simpson" wrote in message
...
Well, some aspects of fibre commoditized. You can certainly get the 1
Gbps
fibre switches for next to nothing.
Not because they are a commodity, it's because they are obsolete, a
rather different phenomenon.

You are a victim of marketing. Someone tells you 2 gbps fibre channel is
"obsolete" and so you don't go there anymore and pay premium dollars for the
latest technology. I simply observe real application requirements. And
frankly for many low-use servers, we wouldn't push 1 Gbps of fibre storage
throughput on our highest use day. For a consumer with low performance
requirements, either of the two generations of fibre prior to 4 Gbps work
well enough to do the job that needs to be done.


No, I'm not a victim of marketing, I'm just saying that the reason you
can pick up cheap 1Gbit FC is because nobody makes it anymore and it is
seen as having little resale value. That does not mean it is
commodotized, it just means its old.

Once SAS gets commoditized, and someone releases a high
volume low cost SATA RAID to fibre solution, we'll have something that is
energy efficient (i.e., low cost to operate 24x7), space efficient, and
cheap.


Whatever else that low-cost SATA-Fibre array will be, it will not be
1Gbit FC and you'll be on your own attaching it to old 1Gbit FC
switches. Also, what do you consider low cost everything you've said so
far indicates that you like to acquire used technology at knockdown
prices, nothing wrong with that, but you'll never see new products get
down to those prices.

--
Nik Simpson

"Nik Simpson" wrote in message
...
No, I'm not a victim of marketing, I'm just saying that the reason you can
pick up cheap 1Gbit FC is because nobody makes it anymore and it is seen
as having little resale value. That does not mean it is commodotized, it
just means its old.

Fair enough. Personally even for someone trying to save pennies I would go
for 2 Gbps switches and HBAs just because they interoperate with less work.


Once SAS gets commoditized, and someone releases a high
volume low cost SATA RAID to fibre solution, we'll have something that is
energy efficient (i.e., low cost to operate 24x7), space efficient, and
cheap.

Whatever else that low-cost SATA-Fibre array will be, it will not be 1Gbit
FC and you'll be on your own attaching it to old 1Gbit FC switches. Also,
what do you consider low cost everything you've said so far indicates that
you like to acquire used technology at knockdown prices, nothing wrong
with that, but you'll never see new products get down to those prices.

I would be using any SAS / SATA with 2 Gbps Brocade switches, but I wasn't
clear about that before.

As far as commoditization, it seems to be happening faster and faster with
each new generation of technology.

--
Will