DVD changers for burners??? [revisited]

Well guys, I finally found my 'holy grail' robot to physically automate
CD/DVD disc spanning for backup purposes. No I'm not talking about one of
those office copier sized machines that only institutions can get enough use
out of to get a return on their institutional sized investment. However, it
does come from that "industrial/institutional" category. Yet it is the
first of such products I've seen that a consumer like myself could talk
myself into buying (admittedly, though, with my eyes closed) It's the MF
Digital Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. But it doesn't just duplicate
or make disc copies. It's primarily what's they call an "autodisc loader".
It can be used in any of many different ways, including spanning DVD discs
for backup data. And the price is an almost down to earth $839.00.
Admittedly more than most large hard drives are sold for today. But for
that price you can't backup to tape cartridge of much quanitity. It holds
up to 25 discs at a time, robotically moving discs into and out of write
drives as needed. That's roughly 115 GB (or if you use DVD-R dual layer or
DVD+R double-layer discs, approximately 210 GB) per unattended backup
session. I would personally have no problem reloading the unit with fresh
discs as often as two or three or more times if necessary, to backup all
hard drive images in my computer to DVD-RW, DVD-RAM or whatever. I could
load up and start the backup process before I leave for work. Come home
after work and repeat the process. Do the same at bedtime (if still
necessary by now) to complete the backup. (I don't know if it can write to
BD disks, but if it and/or when it does, once BD disc prices become
affordable the 25 disc capacity will no longer pose any potential mild
inconvenience whatsoever, and total backups to DVD will be able to routinely
started and completed automatically according to schedule with only the most
infrequent and briefest of human intervention.)
I would still use a large external hard drive for completely hands off
routine nightly backup of course. But every few weeks at most I could do
this redundant DVD backup as well for a complementary kind of redundancy not
far from totally secure data backup. And I could even easily make automated
disk copies of my backup DVDs for even more backup redundancy. Hence, for
the first time I could consider what gets stored in my computer to be safer
from loss than that which I presently print paper hard copies of so as to
file in a physical filing cabinet (e.g. banking transactions, software
purchases, etc...etc...).

Heres the link: http://www.proactionmedia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=E5910

Ken

Ken Moiarty wrote:

Well guys, I finally found my 'holy grail' robot to physically
automate CD/DVD disc spanning for backup purposes. No I'm not talking
about one of those office copier sized machines that only institutions
can get enough use out of to get a return on their institutional sized
investment. However, it does come from that "industrial/institutional"
category. Yet it is the first of such products I've seen that a consumer
like myself could talk myself into buying (admittedly, though, with my
eyes closed) It's the MF
Digital Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. But it doesn't just
duplicate or make disc copies. It's primarily what's they call an
"autodisc loader". It can be used in any of many different ways,
including spanning DVD discs for backup data. And the price is an almost
down to earth $839.00. Admittedly more than most large hard drives are
sold for today.

Yep, so hard drives make more sense.

But for that price you can't backup to tape cartridge of much quanitity.

Yep, tape has passed its useby date for the backup
of personal desktop systems. Replaced by hard drives.

It holds up to 25 discs at a time, robotically moving discs into and out
of write drives as needed. That's roughly 115 GB

$839 buys a lot of 300G hard drives.

(or if you use DVD-R dual layer or DVD+R
double-layer discs, approximately 210 GB)

Those are pretty lousy value per GB,

per unattended backup session. I would personally have no problem
reloading the unit with fresh discs as often as two or three or more
times if necessary, to backup all hard drive images in my computer to
DVD-RW, DVD-RAM or whatever. I could load up and start the backup
process before I leave for work. Come home after work and repeat the
process. Do the same at bedtime (if still necessary by now) to complete
the backup.

Makes a lot more sense to write to a couple of 300G drives instead.

(I don't know if it can write to BD disks, but if it and/or when it does,
once BD disc prices become affordable the 25 disc capacity will no longer
pose any potential mild inconvenience whatsoever, and total backups to
DVD will be able to routinely started and completed automatically
according to schedule with only the most infrequent and briefest of human
intervention.)

Thats always true when a hard drive is used instead.

I would still use a large external hard drive for completely hands off
routine nightly backup of course. But every few weeks at most I could do
this redundant DVD backup as well for a complementary kind of redundancy
not far from totally secure data backup.

Cant see the point of spending $839 for that myself.

And I could even easily make automated disk copies of my backup DVDs for
even more backup redundancy. Hence, for the first time I could consider
what gets stored in my computer to be safer from loss than that which I
presently print paper hard copies of so as to file in a physical filing
cabinet (e.g. banking transactions, software purchases, etc...etc...).

You dont need a changer for that stuff, just a normal DVD burner.

Heres the link:
http://www.proactionmedia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=E5910

No thanks, lousy value.

"Ken Moiarty" wrote in message
...
Well guys, I finally found my 'holy grail' robot to physically automate
CD/DVD disc spanning for backup purposes. No I'm not talking about one of
those office copier sized machines that only institutions can get enough
use

I "think" i work for a leading edge tech company, and we use tapes, and have
a autotape hopper that holds a bunch of tapes, and we recently upgraded to a
bigger and better tape device that works off a virtual tape (bunch of
disks). I dont think we would use dvd for a number of reasons chiefly
reliability and security. Cost would be pretty low on the pole. We also
have terrabytes to backup.

I was looking at using dvd for my own personal backups, at work and at home.
I ran some tests on those new dual layer dvd's and was very disappointed. I
would get a few errors at the conclusion of an 8.5gb or so dvd write. I was
just using the latest nero (not a dedicated backup program) and depending on
what burner I used (pioneer A08, BenQ 1655, 1620). What is strange is
that more often than not, it was a false error. I was able do copy the zip
or zips off the dvd backup and test them and they would be fine. The
reliability is not there. Plus one would not normally backup zips and stuff
that if a sector was damaged, one of the files might be extractable. A real
backup program would do a better job.

out of to get a return on their institutional sized investment. However,
it
does come from that "industrial/institutional" category. Yet it is the
first of such products I've seen that a consumer like myself could talk
myself into buying (admittedly, though, with my eyes closed) It's the MF
Digital Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. But it doesn't just duplicate
or make disc copies. It's primarily what's they call an "autodisc
loader".
It can be used in any of many different ways, including spanning DVD discs
for backup data. And the price is an almost down to earth $839.00.

As ron mentioned, you could get a bunch of big drives for that price.
Question: What if the data you were backing up was worth, say $10 million
in lost manhours? How comfortable would you feel with an under 1k package?

Admittedly more than most large hard drives are sold for today. But for
that price you can't backup to tape cartridge of much quanitity. It holds
up to 25 discs at a time, robotically moving discs into and out of write
drives as needed. That's roughly 115 GB (or if you use DVD-R dual layer
or
DVD+R double-layer discs, approximately 210 GB) per unattended backup
session. I would personally have no problem reloading the unit with fresh
discs as often as two or three or more times if necessary, to backup all
hard drive images in my computer to DVD-RW, DVD-RAM or whatever. I could
load up and start the backup process before I leave for work. Come home
after work and repeat the process. Do the same at bedtime (if still
necessary by now) to complete the backup. (I don't know if it can write
to
BD disks, but if it and/or when it does, once BD disc prices become
affordable the 25 disc capacity will no longer pose any potential mild
inconvenience whatsoever, and total backups to DVD will be able to
routinely
started and completed automatically according to schedule with only the
most
infrequent and briefest of human intervention.)
I would still use a large external hard drive for completely hands off
routine nightly backup of course. But every few weeks at most I could do
this redundant DVD backup as well for a complementary kind of redundancy
not
far from totally secure data backup. And I could even easily make
automated
disk copies of my backup DVDs for even more backup redundancy. Hence, for
the first time I could consider what gets stored in my computer to be
safer
from loss than that which I presently print paper hard copies of so as to
file in a physical filing cabinet (e.g. banking transactions, software
purchases, etc...etc...).

Heres the link: http://www.proactionmedia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=E5910

Ken



--
================================================== =====================
Beemer Biker
http://TipsForTheComputingImpaired.com
http://ResearchRiders.org Ask about my 99'R1100RT
================================================== =====================

In article ,
Ken Moiarty wrote:
Well guys, I finally found my 'holy grail' robot to physically automate
CD/DVD disc spanning for backup purposes. No I'm not talking about one of
those office copier sized machines that only institutions can get enough use
out of to get a return on their institutional sized investment. However, it
does come from that "industrial/institutional" category. Yet it is the
first of such products I've seen that a consumer like myself could talk
myself into buying (admittedly, though, with my eyes closed) It's the MF
Digital Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. But it doesn't just duplicate
or make disc copies. It's primarily what's they call an "autodisc loader".
It can be used in any of many different ways, including spanning DVD discs
for backup data. And the price is an almost down to earth $839.00.
Admittedly more than most large hard drives are sold for today. But for
that price you can't backup to tape cartridge of much quanitity. It holds
up to 25 discs at a time, robotically moving discs into and out of write
drives as needed. That's roughly 115 GB (or if you use DVD-R dual layer or
DVD+R double-layer discs, approximately 210 GB) per unattended backup
session. I would personally have no problem reloading the unit with fresh
discs as often as two or three or more times if necessary, to backup all
hard drive images in my computer to DVD-RW, DVD-RAM or whatever. I could
load up and start the backup process before I leave for work. Come home
after work and repeat the process. Do the same at bedtime (if still
necessary by now) to complete the backup. (I don't know if it can write to
BD disks, but if it and/or when it does, once BD disc prices become
affordable the 25 disc capacity will no longer pose any potential mild
inconvenience whatsoever, and total backups to DVD will be able to routinely
started and completed automatically according to schedule with only the most
infrequent and briefest of human intervention.)

Minor practical problem: since all DVDs look alike, except perhaps for a
slight difference on one side between recorded and blank, how do you propose
to keep all of your backups organized?

You are lost in a twisty maze of DVDs, all alike.

I would still use a large external hard drive for completely hands off
routine nightly backup of course. But every few weeks at most I could do
this redundant DVD backup as well for a complementary kind of redundancy not
far from totally secure data backup. And I could even easily make automated
disk copies of my backup DVDs for even more backup redundancy. Hence, for
the first time I could consider what gets stored in my computer to be safer
from loss than that which I presently print paper hard copies of so as to
file in a physical filing cabinet (e.g. banking transactions, software
purchases, etc...etc...).

Heres the link: http://www.proactionmedia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=E5910


carl
--
carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego

Carl Lowenstein wrote:
In article ,
Ken Moiarty wrote:
Well guys, I finally found my 'holy grail' robot to physically
automate CD/DVD disc spanning for backup purposes. No I'm not
talking about one of those office copier sized machines that only
institutions can get enough use out of to get a return on their
institutional sized investment. However, it does come from that
"industrial/institutional" category. Yet it is the first of such
products I've seen that a consumer like myself could talk myself
into buying (admittedly, though, with my eyes closed) It's the MF
Digital Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. But it doesn't just
duplicate or make disc copies. It's primarily what's they call an
"autodisc loader". It can be used in any of many different ways,
including spanning DVD discs for backup data. And the price is an
almost down to earth $839.00. Admittedly more than most large hard
drives are sold for today. But for that price you can't backup to
tape cartridge of much quanitity. It holds up to 25 discs at a
time, robotically moving discs into and out of write drives as
needed. That's roughly 115 GB (or if you use DVD-R dual layer or
DVD+R double-layer discs, approximately 210 GB) per unattended
backup session. I would personally have no problem reloading the
unit with fresh discs as often as two or three or more times if
necessary, to backup all hard drive images in my computer to DVD-RW,
DVD-RAM or whatever. I could load up and start the backup process
before I leave for work. Come home after work and repeat the
process. Do the same at bedtime (if still necessary by now) to
complete the backup. (I don't know if it can write to BD disks, but
if it and/or when it does, once BD disc prices become affordable the
25 disc capacity will no longer pose any potential mild
inconvenience whatsoever, and total backups to DVD will be able to
routinely started and completed automatically according to schedule
with only the most infrequent and briefest of human intervention.)

Minor practical problem: since all DVDs look alike, except perhaps
for a slight difference on one side between recorded and blank, how
do you propose to keep all of your backups organized?

Just serial number the DVDs and keep track
of the first and last used in a particular backup.

Not a shred of rocket science required at all.

You are lost in a twisty maze of DVDs, all alike.

Fraid not.

I would still use a large external hard drive for completely
hands off routine nightly backup of course. But every few weeks at
most I could do this redundant DVD backup as well for a
complementary kind of redundancy not far from totally secure data
backup. And I could even easily make automated disk copies of my
backup DVDs for even more backup redundancy. Hence, for the first
time I could consider what gets stored in my computer to be safer
from loss than that which I presently print paper hard copies of so
as to file in a physical filing cabinet (e.g. banking transactions,
software purchases, etc...etc...).

Heres the link:
http://www.proactionmedia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=E5910


carl

"Carl Lowenstein" wrote in message
...
[...]
Minor practical problem: since all DVDs look alike, except perhaps for a
slight difference on one side between recorded and blank, how do you
propose
to keep all of your backups organized?

You are lost in a twisty maze of DVDs, all alike.


That problem is addressed by the fact that this machine automatically prints
a label on each disk. I'm assuming only, however, that there is software
that would keep track of and label each disc appropriately for backup
purposes.

Ken

Rod Speed wrote:
Ken Moiarty wrote:

robot to physically automate CD/DVD disc spanning for backup MF Digital
Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. $839.00. Admittedly more than most
large hard drives are sold for today.

Yep, so hard drives make more sense.

Hard drives can't be expected to survive a drop from the desk,
tapes and DVDs will. Mishandling is more common in personal
desktop systems.

But for that price you can't backup to tape cartridge of much
quanitity.

Yep, tape has passed its useby date for the backup
of personal desktop systems. Replaced by hard drives.

Those drives would have to be well cooled and well shock
mounted to rival the durability of tapes (or DVDs)

Is there a decent shockproof hard disk enclosure
or caddy ? One that can survive drops from the desk?

--
Mike

Mike Redrobe wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Ken Moiarty wrote

robot to physically automate CD/DVD disc spanning for backup MF
Digital Baxter Automated CD DVD Duplicator. $839.00. Admittedly more
than most large hard drives are sold for today.

Yep, so hard drives make more sense.

Hard drives can't be expected to survive a drop from the desk,

Then dont drop it.

tapes and DVDs will. Mishandling is more common in personal desktop
systems.

Not hard to have the drive in something that isnt readily dropped.

But for that price you can't backup to tape cartridge of much
quanitity.

Yep, tape has passed its useby date for the backup
of personal desktop systems. Replaced by hard drives.

Those drives would have to be well cooled and well shock mounted to rival
the durability of tapes (or DVDs)

Wrong on the cooling when they arent powered up.

Is there a decent shockproof hard disk enclosure
or caddy ? One that can survive drops from the desk?

Yep, one of the decent external cases inside one of
those padded containers usually used for cameras etc.

Trevor wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:01:21 GMT, "Mike Redrobe" wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
Yep, tape has passed its useby date for the backup
of personal desktop systems. Replaced by hard drives.

Those drives would have to be well cooled and well shock
mounted to rival the durability of tapes (or DVDs)

Is there a decent shockproof hard disk enclosure
or caddy ? One that can survive drops from the desk?

The bigger question might be, why are you dropping hard drives
off of your desk?

Trolling aside, any removeable media has to be reasonably
physically robust. HDDs generally aren't.

Maybe a bigger desk or more organization is the key. At any
rate, that's yet another reason why I advocate backing up to one or
more internal drives. Even if you're a total klutz, you probably
aren't knocking your entire PC off of your desk, making "shockproof" a
non-issue.

Removeable media (tapes) regularly experience more shock than media
not designed for that i.e. HDDs

--
Mike

Mike Redrobe wrote:
Trevor wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 11:01:21 GMT, "Mike Redrobe" wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:
Yep, tape has passed its useby date for the backup
of personal desktop systems. Replaced by hard drives.

Those drives would have to be well cooled and well shock
mounted to rival the durability of tapes (or DVDs)

Is there a decent shockproof hard disk enclosure
or caddy ? One that can survive drops from the desk?

The bigger question might be, why are you dropping hard drives
off of your desk?

Trolling aside, any removeable media has to be reasonably
physically robust. HDDs generally aren't.

It isnt hard to make them reasonably physically robust.

Maybe a bigger desk or more organization is the key. At any
rate, that's yet another reason why I advocate backing up to one or
more internal drives. Even if you're a total klutz, you probably
aren't knocking your entire PC off of your desk, making "shockproof"
a non-issue.

Removeable media (tapes) regularly experience more shock than media not
designed for that i.e. HDDs

It isnt hard to make the HDDs as robust.