Suggestion for motherboard for multi year timeframe

I work at a non-profit. In the early 80's, we accepted donations of
computer equipment. What we ended up a hodge podge of computers.
Maintenance was a nightmare. I finally convinced management that while
it saved us money up front to accept donated equipment, the ongoing
costs were killing us. Thus, we decided to create a "standard" for or
systems. We ended up using Aopen AX6BC motherboards. Only because we
had a couple of machines that already had these boards. We've gotten
about everything out of these systems that we can. So, now I'm
starting to come up with a new standard for our systems.

Some of the things I would like to see in our new systems:

1) Reliable.
We do not have air conditioned space. We get dust via open windows. We
get humidity anywhere from 20% to near 100%.

2) Ability to upgrade processors.
We will probably have these systems for 5 to 7 years before the next
replacement cycle. Being able to upgrade processors is very important.

3) Ability to upgrade memory.
Again, because we will have these systems for many years, we'll need
to be able to add a lot of memory to keep them going.

4) New hardware compatibility.
Support for SATA, multiple USB ports, RAID, onboard ethernet and
sound. With the new video requirements from Vista, I'm not sure if
onboard video is the way to go or not.

5) OS compatibility.
(As if anyone's crystal ball can predict this.) We'll probably install
XP on these at first. Then upgrade to Vista. I expect that we'll still
have these machines when the next OS after Vista is released.

5) Vendor support for Bios upgrades.
Again, because we'll have these systems for many years, we'll want the
vendor to continue to provide Bios fixes and upgrades for some
reasonable time.

6) Remote management.
Anything that will help us manage the systems is a big plus. Tools to
monitor temp, fans, voltage and SMART drives. Some of the glossy ads
from Intel about the V-Pro boards looks good. Anything to eliminate
trips to the desktop will save us money.

I have read some good things about the Intel DQ965 boards. So, I'm
looking for some real world experiences with these boards. Or any
suggestions about alternative boards we should consider.

TIA,
Mark
--
Email hint - Everything after the @ is spelled backwards.

There are only 10 types of people in the world:
those that understand binary, and
those that don't.

andmg wrote:
I work at a non-profit. In the early 80's, we accepted donations of
computer equipment. What we ended up a hodge podge of computers.
Maintenance was a nightmare. I finally convinced management that while
it saved us money up front to accept donated equipment, the ongoing
costs were killing us. Thus, we decided to create a "standard" for or
systems. We ended up using Aopen AX6BC motherboards. Only because we
had a couple of machines that already had these boards. We've gotten
about everything out of these systems that we can. So, now I'm
starting to come up with a new standard for our systems.

Some of the things I would like to see in our new systems:

1) Reliable.
We do not have air conditioned space. We get dust via open windows. We
get humidity anywhere from 20% to near 100%.

No system will be reliable out of spec. Even with lots of fans, if the
ambient is too hot component life will shorten, even if no failure is
immediately seen. Other than those per-system air conditioners you will
have less reliability. If it's a real issue, going to the rugged laptops
will help, but that may cost more than adding A/C.

If this is "one office" use, one small room with A/C and a fileserver
would reduce drive temp, and setting spin-down on idle will help with
case temp.

2) Ability to upgrade processors.
We will probably have these systems for 5 to 7 years before the next
replacement cycle. Being able to upgrade processors is very important.

Core2Duo should be upgradable to Core2Quad, but how much CPU will you need?

3) Ability to upgrade memory.
Again, because we will have these systems for many years, we'll need
to be able to add a lot of memory to keep them going.

Again, what do you need? I have several systems used for general Email,
small spreadsheet, and document creation which have memory upgrades
sitting in my desk, because 512MB has been enough.

4) New hardware compatibility.
Support for SATA, multiple USB ports, RAID, onboard ethernet and
sound. With the new video requirements from Vista, I'm not sure if
onboard video is the way to go or not.

It is, you can always add more graphics later.

5) OS compatibility.
(As if anyone's crystal ball can predict this.) We'll probably install
XP on these at first. Then upgrade to Vista. I expect that we'll still
have these machines when the next OS after Vista is released.

Unless your application upgrade drive this why upgrade the o/s? You
don't say much about what you do, so I'm hand-waving here.

5) Vendor support for Bios upgrades.
Again, because we'll have these systems for many years, we'll want the
vendor to continue to provide Bios fixes and upgrades for some
reasonable time.

Other than Intel and ASUS I can't say any more. They definitely have
upgrades and ASUS has many ways to install them including a Windows
tool, floppy, CD, network... Okay, we're a Linux shop, I've seen the
Windows stuff used by clients ;-)

6) Remote management.
Anything that will help us manage the systems is a big plus. Tools to
monitor temp, fans, voltage and SMART drives. Some of the glossy ads
from Intel about the V-Pro boards looks good. Anything to eliminate
trips to the desktop will save us money.

Unless you have a boatload of hardware issues, power issues, or bad
users, you shouldn't have to hands-on a machine once a year. Replay what
I said about heat and reliability, what brings you to the desktop? If
it's hardware on machines started new, the environment may be your
issue. More hand-waving and guessing on that.

I have read some good things about the Intel DQ965 boards. So, I'm
looking for some real world experiences with these boards. Or any
suggestions about alternative boards we should consider.

More info on use, conditions, and why you go to the desktop might get a
better answer.

--
Bill Davidsen
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

Mark said the following:
snip
1) Reliable.
We do not have air conditioned space. We get dust via open windows. We
get humidity anywhere from 20% to near 100%.

2) Ability to upgrade processors.
We will probably have these systems for 5 to 7 years before the next
replacement cycle. Being able to upgrade processors is very important.

3) Ability to upgrade memory.
Again, because we will have these systems for many years, we'll need
to be able to add a lot of memory to keep them going.

4) New hardware compatibility.
Support for SATA, multiple USB ports, RAID, onboard ethernet and
sound. With the new video requirements from Vista, I'm not sure if
onboard video is the way to go or not.

5) OS compatibility.
(As if anyone's crystal ball can predict this.) We'll probably install
XP on these at first. Then upgrade to Vista. I expect that we'll still
have these machines when the next OS after Vista is released.

5) Vendor support for Bios upgrades.
Again, because we'll have these systems for many years, we'll want the
vendor to continue to provide Bios fixes and upgrades for some
reasonable time.

6) Remote management.
Anything that will help us manage the systems is a big plus. Tools to
monitor temp, fans, voltage and SMART drives. Some of the glossy ads
from Intel about the V-Pro boards looks good. Anything to eliminate
trips to the desktop will save us money.

I have read some good things about the Intel DQ965 boards. So, I'm
looking for some real world experiences with these boards. Or any
suggestions about alternative boards we should consider.

Your set of goals and assumptions may be unattainable or optimistic.
If you want the hardware to be Vista validated, I would waite until
AFTER it is released next year. Promisses are not always honored.
Motherboard hardware designs usually only last about 6 to 12 months
now. A 5 to 7 year time cycle is VERY difficult to predict. You failed
to mention what you wanted the computers to actually do, the
application software. You can make a computer today that will last
5 to 7 years of use running todays software but future software is
difficult to predict. Software 5 years from now will probably have a
difficult time running on todays computers anyway at best. Intel
changes cpu's and support chipsets that go with them fairly often.
Newer cpu's usually require newer "glue" chips sets so that requires
a new motherboard. One of the newer trends is to have one or two
servers that have the software on them and the client runs basically
a video terminal When it comes time to upgrade you just upgrade
the servers, the clients stay the same. Most/all of your 6 points can
be handled by either large companies (HP, Dell, IBM/Lenovo, etc...)
or parts companies (Intel, ASUS, SuperMicro, etc...) where you
build your own machines, my preference. Most small organizations
think that they can run a computer department on little or no money.
This is not realistic. Finally they learn that they have to actually budget
for computer problems and buying newer machines and software. The
ones with which I am familiar have a 4 or 5 year life cycle for 100
percent replacement, they replace 20 to 25 percent of their machines
every year. That takes planning. If your tasks can be done on Linux,
that may save your organization a ton of money depending on how
many machines we are talking about. I have worked with lots of
government, tax exempt, no profit and educational organizations and
they all LOVE Linux when it can be shown it can work.

My prediction for 5 years from now:
motherboards will be able to have cpu's from different arch's.
virtuallization will be everywhere and standard
cpu's will have lots of cores/threading capability
lots of ram will be standard.
Playstation 3 will be cheap. Sorry, couldn't resist.

If you stick with the companies that make "good stuff" and not
the junk and know who they are, you should be pretty safe.

later......

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 19:28:41 -0500, Bill Davidsen
wrote:

andmg wrote:
I work at a non-profit. In the early 80's, we accepted donations of
computer equipment. What we ended up a hodge podge of computers.
Maintenance was a nightmare. I finally convinced management that while
it saved us money up front to accept donated equipment, the ongoing
costs were killing us. Thus, we decided to create a "standard" for or
systems. We ended up using Aopen AX6BC motherboards. Only because we
had a couple of machines that already had these boards. We've gotten
about everything out of these systems that we can. So, now I'm
starting to come up with a new standard for our systems.

Some of the things I would like to see in our new systems:

1) Reliable.
We do not have air conditioned space. We get dust via open windows. We
get humidity anywhere from 20% to near 100%.

No system will be reliable out of spec. Even with lots of fans, if the
ambient is too hot component life will shorten, even if no failure is
immediately seen. Other than those per-system air conditioners you will
have less reliability. If it's a real issue, going to the rugged laptops
will help, but that may cost more than adding A/C.

If this is "one office" use, one small room with A/C and a fileserver
would reduce drive temp, and setting spin-down on idle will help with
case temp.

We have a 'campus' environment. There are computers scattered in 10
different buildings. None of the buildings has A/C. We added an
additional case fan on all of our machines. The case fan pulls air
into the case. In addition to the case fan, we cut up a furnace filter
and inserted it ahead of the fan. This keeps the air pressure on the
positive side and helps keep the dust to a minimum. It works pretty
well. The only thing we need to watch are the machines that sit
directly on the floor.


2) Ability to upgrade processors.
We will probably have these systems for 5 to 7 years before the next
replacement cycle. Being able to upgrade processors is very important.

Core2Duo should be upgradable to Core2Quad, but how much CPU will you need?

3) Ability to upgrade memory.
Again, because we will have these systems for many years, we'll need
to be able to add a lot of memory to keep them going.

Again, what do you need? I have several systems used for general Email,
small spreadsheet, and document creation which have memory upgrades
sitting in my desk, because 512MB has been enough.

Our current systems came with Windows 98. It's now almost 2007. We
run MS Office, Outlook, a home grown registration-donation system,
Peachtree Accounting, Adobe, J2Fax, Firefox, APC Powerchute and
Symantec Corporate Edition.

4) New hardware compatibility.
Support for SATA, multiple USB ports, RAID, onboard ethernet and
sound. With the new video requirements from Vista, I'm not sure if
onboard video is the way to go or not.

It is, you can always add more graphics later.

5) OS compatibility.
(As if anyone's crystal ball can predict this.) We'll probably install
XP on these at first. Then upgrade to Vista. I expect that we'll still
have these machines when the next OS after Vista is released.

Unless your application upgrade drive this why upgrade the o/s? You
don't say much about what you do, so I'm hand-waving here.

I'm not always in control of the upgrade requirements. Our accounting
department had to upgrade from Peachtree 2004. Peachtree 2007 has
hardware requirements (memory and processor speed) that our current
systems do not meet. That's how I found myself here.


5) Vendor support for Bios upgrades.
Again, because we'll have these systems for many years, we'll want the
vendor to continue to provide Bios fixes and upgrades for some
reasonable time.

Other than Intel and ASUS I can't say any more. They definitely have
upgrades and ASUS has many ways to install them including a Windows
tool, floppy, CD, network... Okay, we're a Linux shop, I've seen the
Windows stuff used by clients ;-)

I've considered moving to Linux. The big thing that holds us up is an
in house written registration-donation system.


6) Remote management.
Anything that will help us manage the systems is a big plus. Tools to
monitor temp, fans, voltage and SMART drives. Some of the glossy ads
from Intel about the V-Pro boards looks good. Anything to eliminate
trips to the desktop will save us money.

Unless you have a boatload of hardware issues, power issues, or bad
users, you shouldn't have to hands-on a machine once a year. Replay what
I said about heat and reliability, what brings you to the desktop? If
it's hardware on machines started new, the environment may be your
issue. More hand-waving and guessing on that.

It's a combination of hardware and software.

Our systems are at the end of their useful life. This year we've had
one motherboard failure, 3 HD failures, 5 fan failures, 3 CD drive
failures, 4 monitor failures and 3 mice failures.

I installed Firefox, updated the APC Powerchute software, Upgraded
J2Fax software, helped with user problems and removed spyware. I
probably have to go to a desktop about once every two weeks for
something.


I have read some good things about the Intel DQ965 boards. So, I'm
looking for some real world experiences with these boards. Or any
suggestions about alternative boards we should consider.

More info on use, conditions, and why you go to the desktop might get a
better answer.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 06:29:52 GMT, "***** charles"
wrote:

Mark said the following:
snip
1) Reliable.
We do not have air conditioned space. We get dust via open windows. We
get humidity anywhere from 20% to near 100%.

2) Ability to upgrade processors.
We will probably have these systems for 5 to 7 years before the next
replacement cycle. Being able to upgrade processors is very important.

3) Ability to upgrade memory.
Again, because we will have these systems for many years, we'll need
to be able to add a lot of memory to keep them going.

4) New hardware compatibility.
Support for SATA, multiple USB ports, RAID, onboard ethernet and
sound. With the new video requirements from Vista, I'm not sure if
onboard video is the way to go or not.

5) OS compatibility.
(As if anyone's crystal ball can predict this.) We'll probably install
XP on these at first. Then upgrade to Vista. I expect that we'll still
have these machines when the next OS after Vista is released.

5) Vendor support for Bios upgrades.
Again, because we'll have these systems for many years, we'll want the
vendor to continue to provide Bios fixes and upgrades for some
reasonable time.

6) Remote management.
Anything that will help us manage the systems is a big plus. Tools to
monitor temp, fans, voltage and SMART drives. Some of the glossy ads
from Intel about the V-Pro boards looks good. Anything to eliminate
trips to the desktop will save us money.

I have read some good things about the Intel DQ965 boards. So, I'm
looking for some real world experiences with these boards. Or any
suggestions about alternative boards we should consider.

Your set of goals and assumptions may be unattainable or optimistic.
If you want the hardware to be Vista validated, I would waite until
AFTER it is released next year. Promisses are not always honored.
Motherboard hardware designs usually only last about 6 to 12 months
now. A 5 to 7 year time cycle is VERY difficult to predict. You failed
to mention what you wanted the computers to actually do, the
application software. You can make a computer today that will last
5 to 7 years of use running todays software but future software is
difficult to predict. Software 5 years from now will probably have a
difficult time running on todays computers anyway at best. Intel
changes cpu's and support chipsets that go with them fairly often.
Newer cpu's usually require newer "glue" chips sets so that requires
a new motherboard. One of the newer trends is to have one or two
servers that have the software on them and the client runs basically
a video terminal When it comes time to upgrade you just upgrade
the servers, the clients stay the same. Most/all of your 6 points can
be handled by either large companies (HP, Dell, IBM/Lenovo, etc...)
or parts companies (Intel, ASUS, SuperMicro, etc...) where you
build your own machines, my preference. Most small organizations
think that they can run a computer department on little or no money.
This is not realistic. Finally they learn that they have to actually budget
for computer problems and buying newer machines and software. The
ones with which I am familiar have a 4 or 5 year life cycle for 100
percent replacement, they replace 20 to 25 percent of their machines
every year. That takes planning. If your tasks can be done on Linux,
that may save your organization a ton of money depending on how
many machines we are talking about. I have worked with lots of
government, tax exempt, no profit and educational organizations and
they all LOVE Linux when it can be shown it can work.

My prediction for 5 years from now:
motherboards will be able to have cpu's from different arch's.
virtuallization will be everywhere and standard
cpu's will have lots of cores/threading capability
lots of ram will be standard.
Playstation 3 will be cheap. Sorry, couldn't resist.

If you stick with the companies that make "good stuff" and not
the junk and know who they are, you should be pretty safe.

later......

Our current systems came with Windows 98. It's now almost 2007. We
had a lot of donations dry up after 9/11/2001. It's forced us to
stretch out our current schedule.

We run MS Office, Outlook, a home grown registration-donation system,
Peachtree Accounting, Adobe, J2Fax, Firefox, APC Powerchute and
Symantec Corporate Edition. Our home grown registration-donation
system is the biggest thing that keeps with a MS platform. I'm pushing
to get the system rewritten to support a browser interface.

We have about 28 machines, in 9 different buildings, scattered across
a mountain top. None of our buildings has A/C. We get more than our
share of lightening and severe weather. We do everything we can to
keep our systems cool and dust free. We have extra case fans with
filters, to keep the cases with positive air pressure.

You are fudamentally asking for the impossible. With the current roadmap
for Intel, you can expect to see a different CPU socket on the motherboard
about every 2 to 3 years at the most due to rapid advances in technology.
Same with RAM, DDR2 is the current standard, but by next October Intel is
switching over to DDR3 which is faster and uses a different RAM socket and
voltage than DDR2.
I think you should reasonably plan on buying a current system and keeping it
as is for 3 to 4 years, and then COMPLETELY upgrading to new computers
because everything will be on a new standard as far as computer components.

--
DaveW

----------------
"mg" wrote in message
...
I work at a non-profit. In the early 80's, we accepted donations of
computer equipment. What we ended up a hodge podge of computers.
Maintenance was a nightmare. I finally convinced management that while
it saved us money up front to accept donated equipment, the ongoing
costs were killing us. Thus, we decided to create a "standard" for or
systems. We ended up using Aopen AX6BC motherboards. Only because we
had a couple of machines that already had these boards. We've gotten
about everything out of these systems that we can. So, now I'm
starting to come up with a new standard for our systems.

Some of the things I would like to see in our new systems:

1) Reliable.
We do not have air conditioned space. We get dust via open windows. We
get humidity anywhere from 20% to near 100%.

2) Ability to upgrade processors.
We will probably have these systems for 5 to 7 years before the next
replacement cycle. Being able to upgrade processors is very important.

3) Ability to upgrade memory.
Again, because we will have these systems for many years, we'll need
to be able to add a lot of memory to keep them going.

4) New hardware compatibility.
Support for SATA, multiple USB ports, RAID, onboard ethernet and
sound. With the new video requirements from Vista, I'm not sure if
onboard video is the way to go or not.

5) OS compatibility.
(As if anyone's crystal ball can predict this.) We'll probably install
XP on these at first. Then upgrade to Vista. I expect that we'll still
have these machines when the next OS after Vista is released.

5) Vendor support for Bios upgrades.
Again, because we'll have these systems for many years, we'll want the
vendor to continue to provide Bios fixes and upgrades for some
reasonable time.

6) Remote management.
Anything that will help us manage the systems is a big plus. Tools to
monitor temp, fans, voltage and SMART drives. Some of the glossy ads
from Intel about the V-Pro boards looks good. Anything to eliminate
trips to the desktop will save us money.

I have read some good things about the Intel DQ965 boards. So, I'm
looking for some real world experiences with these boards. Or any
suggestions about alternative boards we should consider.

TIA,
Mark
--
Email hint - Everything after the @ is spelled backwards.

There are only 10 types of people in the world:
those that understand binary, and
those that don't.

Mark said the following:
snip
Our current systems came with Windows 98. It's now almost 2007. We
had a lot of donations dry up after 9/11/2001. It's forced us to
stretch out our current schedule.

Most of the W98 machines that I have had to repair/upgrade come in
with 64M of ram, pityfull. The current version of Ubuntu requires just
192M of ram just to install. There is a phenomenom that I call "a
leveling problem". It is when the hardware and the software are too
far out of synch. It is usually when the hardware is too old for the
software although it can be the other way around, but rarely.

We run MS Office, Outlook, a home grown registration-donation system,
Peachtree Accounting, Adobe, J2Fax, Firefox, APC Powerchute and
Symantec Corporate Edition. Our home grown registration-donation
system is the biggest thing that keeps with a MS platform. I'm pushing
to get the system rewritten to support a browser interface.

I think you would probably have a bit of trouble running Linux and the
Peachtree and the Adobe software equivelants just like your home
grown R-D system. I have heard of GNUcash for the Linux world
but I have never tried it and don't even know if it is still being
maintained. I would have moved a lot more people off Windows if
it hadn't been for Quicken and Peachtree and Quickbooks. The
best advantage to Linux is cost. If you could get Linux software to
do the functionality you need, it would be a great alternative. Sounds
like your R-D system could be converted to a Linux box running a
database with an html front end and then connect it to your lan.

We have about 28 machines, in 9 different buildings, scattered across
a mountain top. None of our buildings has A/C. We get more than our
share of lightening and severe weather. We do everything we can to
keep our systems cool and dust free. We have extra case fans with
filters, to keep the cases with positive air pressure.

You didn't say if they were all connected and have a gateway to the
outside world. You asked about remote admin. This would be a lot
easier/cheaper with Linux. With the lightning power problems in
your part of the country the uips's are pretty important. I would
unplug if not actively using the machine.

later,,,,

BG wrote in
:

Our current systems came with Windows 98. It's now almost 2007. We
had a lot of donations dry up after 9/11/2001. It's forced us to
stretch out our current schedule.

We run MS Office, Outlook, a home grown registration-donation system,
Peachtree Accounting, Adobe, J2Fax, Firefox, APC Powerchute and
Symantec Corporate Edition. Our home grown registration-donation
system is the biggest thing that keeps with a MS platform. I'm pushing
to get the system rewritten to support a browser interface.

We have about 28 machines, in 9 different buildings, scattered across
a mountain top. None of our buildings has A/C. We get more than our
share of lightening and severe weather. We do everything we can to
keep our systems cool and dust free. We have extra case fans with
filters, to keep the cases with positive air pressure.

Have you considered thin clients?

--
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vbaabgriragurtbireazragnertbaanfgbclbhabjohgnerlbh ernqlgborurnegoebxra