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MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 22nd 19, 04:46 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
MaxTheFast
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

I've spent a while today to "study" Paul's replies but honestly I've not understood so much. As far as I can understand it's a fantec's issue/feature and that avoids me to use just an esata-sata cable but I've to use a PCI interface between my mobo and the fantec, isn't it? Before buying the above linked PCI and an esata-esata cable I'd like to know if there could be a workaround/trick to do with this (likely)useless esata-sata cable I've got. In other words, if it's a signal matter can't we just "simulate" anyhow the proper signal coming from the PCI to trick the fantec? I'm not skilled but I guess if the signal is not complex and it's just something like a low value DC or Ohm or other basic signal, we can use capacitors, resistances, etc. either working on the cable or on the fantec.

Another idea to save this esata-sata cable from the trashcan and to avoid installing a PCI. We know fantec + usb has no issue so I think I could use a usb-esata adapter + this esata-sata cable to connect the fantec to a mobo's sata port. I've seen some of these adapters and I guess they're more likely converters because they've got a "fat" body and I guess there're some electronics inside. Therefore I think the answer will be "it depends on what happens to the signal we're talking about when it's processed inside the converter", right? I don't know the answer but maybe you do.
I think we can take the experience of the CPU led error to say the mobo understands there's something strange connected to one of its sata ports when esata-sata cable is used, therefore I bet the adapter-converter would not work.

Some last details I missed to say: 1) as far as I remember each of the 6 sata ports entries can be set to "hot plug" (or something similar) in the bios; 2) it's not fundamental for me but it could be interesting to see if a OS booted from this external enclosure via sata, do you think it's possible?
  #12  
Old June 22nd 19, 06:25 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

MaxTheFast wrote:
I've spent a while today to "study" Paul's replies but honestly I've not understood so much. As far as I can understand it's a fantec's issue/feature and that avoids me to use just an esata-sata cable but I've to use a PCI interface between my mobo and the fantec, isn't it? Before buying the above linked PCI and an esata-esata cable I'd like to know if there could be a workaround/trick to do with this (likely)useless esata-sata cable I've got. In other words, if it's a signal matter can't we just "simulate" anyhow the proper signal coming from the PCI to trick the fantec? I'm not skilled but I guess if the signal is not complex and it's just something like a low value DC or Ohm or other basic signal, we can use capacitors, resistances, etc. either working on the cable or on the fantec.

Another idea to save this esata-sata cable from the trashcan and to avoid installing a PCI. We know fantec + usb has no issue so I think I could use a usb-esata adapter + this esata-sata cable to connect the fantec to a mobo's sata port. I've seen some of these adapters and I guess they're more likely converters because they've got a "fat" body and I guess there're some electronics inside. Therefore I think the answer will be "it depends on what happens to the signal we're talking about when it's processed inside the converter", right? I don't know the answer but maybe you do.
I think we can take the experience of the CPU led error to say the mobo understands there's something strange connected to one of its sata ports when esata-sata cable is used, therefore I bet the adapter-converter would not work.

Some last details I missed to say:


1) as far as I remember each of the 6 sata
ports entries can be set to "hot plug"
(or something similar) in the bios;

2) it's not fundamental for me but it could be interesting to see if a
OS booted from this external enclosure via sata, do you think it's possible?

Yes, you can boot an external ESATA, just like any other
SATA. There is no marking at BIOS level to differentiate
the types.

And "Hot Plug" could help with some of the tests
you're running right now.

Without Hot Plug enabled, I think the OS can still detect
a drive at boot time.

Windows at one time, would include Hot Plug drives in the
Safely Remove menu. It would even show C: in that menu!
But of course, any attempt to Safely Remove C: would lead
to an appropriately snotty error message (files busy, that
sort of thing).

Paul
  #13  
Old July 1st 19, 05:34 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
MaxTheFast
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

Hi Paul, sorry for delay.
I've made other researches to get deeper into both sata and esata operating mode and these are my results:
- sata/esata electrical signals are slightly different: Tx sata 400-600mV; Tx esata 500-600mV; Rx sata 325-600mV; Rx esata 240-600mV;
- maybe it's my mobo's fault because of the following taken from https://sata-io.org/sites/default/fi..._WP_11-09.pdf:
"Since many of the existing disk drives and Serial ATA chipsets were originally designed with only the internal signal levels in mind, they may not be able to meet the more rigorous requirements of the external interconnect levels."

In other words my theory is: for sure my fantec enclosure affords an esata signal from its esata ports; fantec can't "understand" there's an esata-sata cable connected so the esata signal is carried to the mobo's sata; my mobo's chipset (maybe fw?) doesn't recognize the slightly different signal so it's as the fantec is not connected.
What do you think of that? If it's correct do you think there could be a way to set the bios properly? I looked into the bios but I found nothing about that.
Anyway I guess it's not a good way to sold something to cable's wires to try to modify the transmitted voltages, is it?
  #14  
Old July 1st 19, 07:28 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

MaxTheFast wrote:
Hi Paul, sorry for delay.
I've made other researches to get deeper into both sata and esata operating mode and these are my results:
- sata/esata electrical signals are slightly different: Tx sata 400-600mV; Tx esata 500-600mV; Rx sata 325-600mV; Rx esata 240-600mV;
- maybe it's my mobo's fault because of the following taken from https://sata-io.org/sites/default/fi..._WP_11-09.pdf:
"Since many of the existing disk drives and Serial ATA chipsets were originally designed with only the internal signal levels in mind, they may not be able to meet the more rigorous requirements of the external interconnect levels."

In other words my theory is: for sure my fantec enclosure affords an esata signal from its esata ports; fantec can't "understand" there's an esata-sata cable connected so the esata signal is carried to the mobo's sata; my mobo's chipset (maybe fw?) doesn't recognize the slightly different signal so it's as the fantec is not connected.
What do you think of that? If it's correct do you think there could be a way to set the bios properly? I looked into the bios but I found nothing about that.
Anyway I guess it's not a good way to sold something to cable's wires to try to modify the transmitted voltages, is it?


There *is* no ESATA mode.

I suspect that ports with so-called dual support (SATA or ESATA)
are *always* run in ESATA mode. This allows, say, an Intel
Southbridge to actually work with a longer SATA cable inside
the PC casing.

What the ESATA launch amplitude and receive sensitivity allow,
is SATA II rates on up to 2 meters of cable. It's something
like that.

And that's all that ESATA TX/RX capability does, is extend
the reach (double the cable length). Any other layers in
the hardware stack are unaffected. And the operating
system cannot look at that port and say "that's ESATA".
It really doesn't know.

I pulled datasheets before, trying and trying to find an
ESATA register setting in the PCH specs, and there is
nothing there. My conclusion is, it's always running
in ESATA mode.

*******

ESATA works without line buildout. Long transmission
lines normally need "compensation", otherwise known
as pre-emphasis. This allows long lines to have
compensation at the driving end, to make the signal
look better at the receiving end.

Now SAS has line buildout. It has a single bit for
selecting "short" or "long" lines. And SAS is similar
to SATA, except a *much* longer cable is supported.
And that's because the PHY has a more complex driver,
with a one-bit line length setting.

SATA/ESATA on the other hand, has no line buildout
option. Whether you use a 1 meter cable, a 12 inch
cable, a 2 meter cable, the SATA scheme has to work
for all of them, without any line buildout to compensate.
This means the eye diagram for the I/O looks different,
depend on cable, and the scheme has to work in every
case.

As near as I can determine, anything with ESATA capability,
simply stays in ESATA mode all the time. The device may
allow programming the Hot Plug capability, to avoid
annoyances if the user isn't actually Hot Plugging
the hardware. And this must be set correctly, for
external ESATA enclosures, if you want them to be as
flexible as USB3.

On "good" designs, the hard drive platter is in
spin-down state, before you pull out the cable.
That's what a Safely Remove should be doing for
an ESATA device. The same would be preferred
behavior for hard drives in USB3 enclosures.

WinXP had the best setup, in that the power
LED on the enclosure would go off when Safely
Remove was used. It was easier to tell there
was a state change. The power LED in that
case, was a way for the enclosure interface
chip, to signal "I've entered a low power state".

Paul
  #15  
Old July 1st 19, 10:56 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
MaxTheFast
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

Paul so the faulty of this "sata affair" is my enclosure, isn't it?
  #16  
Old July 2nd 19, 12:38 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

MaxTheFast wrote:
Paul so the faulty of this "sata affair" is my enclosure, isn't it?


How have you concluded this ?

Has the BIOS been set for "Hot Plug: Enabled"
on the port ?

If so, plugging it in, should be recognized.

If for any reason, the power adapter was defective,
and not enough energy to spin the platters, that
might give the same symptoms. Feel or listen for
movement in the casing, that it has been given
a fair chance to work.

Paul
  #17  
Old July 2nd 19, 04:49 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
MaxTheFast
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Posts: 22
Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

Sorry Paul for my misunderstanding but I'm newbie and my english is bad. As I said time before I had already tried to set all the 6 mobo's sata ports with "hot plug" enabled but I still had no success, I mean I had tried to connect the fantec to each one of the 6 ports. As I already said the fantec power supply works because the fantec is properly recognized if connected via usb cable.
Due to that I thought it was the fantec's esata port the faulty because my mobo would work properly, I mean sata ports can be set that way ("hot plug"), and you said esata a sata signals are the same.

So if it's not the enclosure's esata port broken and the mobo works properly, what's the faulty, maybe this brand new esata-sata cable? Or maybe the fantec's power supply doesn't work and all the energy to boot and run an Ubuntu OS from the fantec was taken only from the usb3 port? Do you think it could be possible?
  #18  
Old July 2nd 19, 06:08 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

MaxTheFast wrote:
Sorry Paul for my misunderstanding but I'm newbie and my english is bad. As I said time before I had already tried to set all the 6 mobo's sata ports with "hot plug" enabled but I still had no success, I mean I had tried to connect the fantec to each one of the 6 ports. As I already said the fantec power supply works because the fantec is properly recognized if connected via usb cable.
Due to that I thought it was the fantec's esata port the faulty because my mobo would work properly, I mean sata ports can be set that way ("hot plug"), and you said esata a sata signals are the same.

So if it's not the enclosure's esata port broken and the mobo works properly, what's the faulty, maybe this brand new esata-sata cable? Or maybe the fantec's power supply doesn't work and all the energy to boot and run an Ubuntu OS from the fantec was taken only from the usb3 port? Do you think it could be possible?


The enclosure should have automatic selection
of interface. I doubt it has a switch to select
one or the other.

Only one data cable type should be connected
at a time, to prevent "confusing" the enclosure.

Don't wire up both the USB cable and the ESATA
cable at the same time.

The ESATA port could be off an entirely different
chip, than the six ports on the Southbridge. Make
sure you're programming the correct chip.

My Test Machine has six SATA ports off an Intel Southbridge,
plus *two* ESATA ports coming off an Asmedia chip. So the
hot plug I'd want in my case, would be for those two
separate ports. Make sure, if a chip other than the
Southbridge is used, that the storage chip has a driver
and that Device Manager looks reasonably clean.

Paul
  #19  
Old July 2nd 19, 07:49 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
MaxTheFast
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

Another misunderstanding about my tests: I had tried ONLY ONCE to connect the enclosure with both cables (usb, esata-sata) and it worked in usb mode but in EVERY other tests I had used only esata-sata cable or only usb cable.
By the way today I got the CPU led error another time after my last attempt with esata-sata cable, then the bios has reset and booted with windows instead of ubuntu, then I entered the bios and set ubuntu as 1st OS, rebooted and got the CPU led error. It's amazing!

The ESATA port could be off an entirely different chip, than the six ports on the Southbridge. Make sure you're programming the correct chip.

As said I looked at that bios section but I found nothing else than setting sata ports on "hot plug" or not. The section is: settings\advanced\integrated peripherals "sata configuration". There I can set "sata mode" AHCI/RAID too but I guess it doesn't matter here, I can set "onboard lan configuration" and "audio configuration" too but I think these are not the way out. I can't set any other entry on sata ports afaik so I guess the Southbridge is only one.

So, who's the faulty? I'm going to give back the brand new esata-sata cable to amazon but before that I'd like to get a definitive judgement from you.
  #20  
Old July 2nd 19, 08:07 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware
Paul[_28_]
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Default MSI B450-A PRO doesn't recognize external HDD via esata-sata

MaxTheFast wrote:
Another misunderstanding about my tests: I had tried ONLY ONCE to connect the enclosure with both cables (usb, esata-sata) and it worked in usb mode but in EVERY other tests I had used only esata-sata cable or only usb cable.
By the way today I got the CPU led error another time after my last attempt with esata-sata cable, then the bios has reset and booted with windows instead of ubuntu, then I entered the bios and set ubuntu as 1st OS, rebooted and got the CPU led error. It's amazing!

The ESATA port could be off an entirely different chip, than the six ports on the Southbridge. Make sure you're programming the correct chip.

As said I looked at that bios section but I found nothing else than setting sata ports on "hot plug" or not. The section is: settings\advanced\integrated peripherals "sata configuration". There I can set "sata mode" AHCI/RAID too but I guess it doesn't matter here, I can set "onboard lan configuration" and "audio configuration" too but I think these are not the way out. I can't set any other entry on sata ports afaik so I guess the Southbridge is only one.

So, who's the faulty? I'm going to give back the brand new esata-sata cable to amazon but before that I'd like to get a definitive judgement from you.


It's possible to damage an enclosure, by connecting both
data cables at the same time.

Some enclosures use more than one chip, they have
a parallel interface, and chips share a bus. The
chips, when *one* cable is plugged in at a time,
only one output drives the bus.

When *both* cables are connected, two chips
try to drive the bus at the same time. This
can potentially damage the chip pad drivers.

I've had designs in the lab, where this kind
of conflict causes the center of the chip to
crack, and some corny looking smoke to pour out.
The chips in enclosures don't have that kind of
powerful drive, and if the chip suffers, it won't
crack like that. There might not be visible symptoms,
just a loss of function, as evidence.

This can *easily* be avoided for about $0.25
in the design, by adding a logic gate to prevent
contention. A responsible engineer would do that.

Modern designs are even more highly integrated,
there is only one major chip inside the enclosure,
and all of this is handled properly, internally,
in the major chip. It would be an older enclosure
(maybe with SATA I ESATA) that would be kludged like that.

I can't say why your enclosure is not working:

1) Could be a power issue. (Bad wall adapter)
We know this is not the case, because USB works.

2) Could be a disk drive issue.
We know this is not the case, because USB works.

3) No ESATA port driver on the mobo. Is Device Manager clean ?
The USB working case, doesn't tell us whether the
ESATA port has a driver.

4) ESATA port disabled in BIOS.

5) ESATA port hotplug disabled (only prevents detection
while the OS is running, does not prevent detection
while the OS is in the boot phase and is discovering
hardware anyway).

6) Unlikely to be a cable issue, unless the presence of
VBUS (cable with "ears") somehow causes the adapter
to shut down (conflict between +5V VBUS of laptop ESATA
versus +12V provided by wall adapter.

If you have a multimeter, you can try continuity testing
of the cable. I wouldn't bother with that, as my first
step. Cabling termination is done by fancy equipment now,
so humans don't get to stick their greasy fingers on stuff
like they used to do. One cable termination machine, and
a half-asleep operator, can produce a hundred times as many
cables as the greasy finger approach.

A number of these issues, could only be identified by
Googling the product model number and seeing what
other reviewers have discovered during "testing".

The last really bad enclosure I've had here, was probably
fifteen years ago. I don't buy a lot of these (half
dozen total lifetime), but the modern ones are past
the "bad wall adapter" era, and Just Work. I'm really quite
amazed that no bad wall adapters have showed up.

Paul
 




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