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Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply



 
 
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  #11  
Old September 3rd 07, 09:45 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Richard Steinfeld[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 239
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

Arthur, you have intrigued me. There you are in Canada, but you're
talking about American laws, providing links to them, etc.

????????

Richard
  #12  
Old September 3rd 07, 03:30 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Gary Tait
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Posts: 127
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

Arthur Entlich wrote in news:aJOCi.120973
$rX4.16160@pd7urf2no:

Perhaps the answer is for someone to come up
with a competitive model and try to educate people to pay more for the
printers so that the ink doesn't end up the only profit engine.


I don't know how profitable it would be (I personally think that the
purchasing public are fine buying underpriced hardware and paying ongoing
costs to use it), but I though of setting up a company whose purpose is to
badge-order devices such as printers and sell them at actual fair market
value for the hardware, and selling the consumables for what they are
really worth, and not preventing 3rd party consumables.
  #13  
Old September 3rd 07, 06:06 PM posted to comp.periphs.printers
NotMe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 136
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

"Barry Watzman" wrote in message
...
| "If we want our rights as consumers to be protected ...."
|
| The manufacturers do have some rights also. I understand not liking it,
| it makes things more expensive for us as consumers. But the
| manufacturers did put in huge up-front engineering effort to invent
| these things, and the did get patents on their products.
|
|
| Arthur Entlich wrote:
| I replied to this posting as though it was legitimate. It may not be,
| but the problem does exist. Manufacturers of inkjet printers are
| winning injunctions against many 3rd party suppliers, and I have read of
| several just last week with Epson products from legitimate sources.
|
| The mechanisms are the same regardless of the veracity of this
| particular posting below, the availability will suffer as more and more
| 3rd party manufacturers are loaded with fines and other injunctions
| which make the cost of continuing not worthwhile.
|
| If we want our rights as consumers to be protected, so we can purchase
| 3rd party cartridges or ink and fill our printers with them, we need to
| get the countries which have such legislation to start looking carefully
| at the Court decisions coming down and their validity.
|
|
| Art

snip

Most of these are design patents that are very limited in scope. While
design patents have a place the use in this instance is strictly to restrict
competition.

With regard to the USA the current political mine set is such that we will
play h*ll securing any consumer protection. Recall the fight over the
pending FCC spectrum auction and the net neutrality?


  #14  
Old September 4th 07, 12:59 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,229
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

Hi Richard,

It is just easier to provide US law for a number of reasons.

1) Easier to find them on line.

2) much of Canadian case law is based upon US laws that have become a
standard within industrialized countries. For instance, most of our
copyright and patent law has been adopted under conventions with the
major industrialized countries and most of that was written under US law
first. Being major trading partners, and having an elephant in our bed
means we often have to accommodate US regulation, so Canada has adopted
much of their law when it comes to trade and international issues.

3) Litigation is a US past time, and there is 10 times the population
there as in Canada, so there is bound to be much more documentation
available from the US on these issues, and many more test cases.

4) I suspect that more people on this newsgroup are living in the US
than probably the total of all other countries combined, and if not,
they still represent the majority here, especially as an english
language group. I am not suggesting anyone ignore all the other people
from other locations, and that is why I made the comments that people
from other areas should also make their voices heard in their locales.

I hope I'm less intriguing now ;-)

Art




Richard Steinfeld wrote:

Arthur, you have intrigued me. There you are in Canada, but you're
talking about American laws, providing links to them, etc.

????????

Richard

  #15  
Old September 4th 07, 01:19 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Arthur Entlich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,229
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

Although not yet available in Canada, and without comment about
reliability or quality or other issues, Kodak is trying to break the
business model currently in use, by charging more for the hardware and
lowering prices on the consumables considerably. So far they haven't
seems to make the splash I was hoping for (I don't know how they feel
about it).

It might be interesting for a company/retailer to offer some type of
consumable contract, where you would buy the hardware which came with a
one or more year consumable contract for a flat fee (depending upon the
item) and that would allow the person to buy consumables at a steep
discount. The only problem would be people abusing it by buying one
contract and using it to supply consumables for many machines which they
didn't buy the contract for.

However, that is almost beginning to sound like a lease program as some
companies like Xerox has offered on their high end copiers...

Art

Gary Tait wrote:

Arthur Entlich wrote in news:aJOCi.120973
$rX4.16160@pd7urf2no:


Perhaps the answer is for someone to come up
with a competitive model and try to educate people to pay more for the
printers so that the ink doesn't end up the only profit engine.



I don't know how profitable it would be (I personally think that the
purchasing public are fine buying underpriced hardware and paying ongoing
costs to use it), but I though of setting up a company whose purpose is to
badge-order devices such as printers and sell them at actual fair market
value for the hardware, and selling the consumables for what they are
really worth, and not preventing 3rd party consumables.

  #16  
Old September 4th 07, 02:18 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
Richard Steinfeld[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 239
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

Arthur Entlich wrote:
Although not yet available in Canada, and without comment about
reliability or quality or other issues, Kodak is trying to break the
business model currently in use, by charging more for the hardware and
lowering prices on the consumables considerably. So far they haven't
seems to make the splash I was hoping for (I don't know how they feel
about it).


I'm curious about this Kodak situation. Maybe they're moving into the
market carefully and slowly. I'm not familiar with their inkjet printers
at all. I can't think of any time that anyone here has discussed them! I
can't recall ever seeing a Kodak inkjet for sale. I understand that
they've been just rebadged machines from established manufacturers with
incompatible cartridges. Anyone know?

What kind of marketing has Kodak used already? Who sells their printers?

But in this case, these are Kodak's own machines (or made for them) that
are designed for their own ink formula.

I wonder if Kodak has been experiencing resistance from the retailers,
or de-facto threats of retaliation by the big boys in the field -- the
type of thing that has happened in the supermarket business, where
manufacturers actually have to pay the store for shelf space (!!!!), and
Ben and Jerry's was locked out by other ice cream companies, causing a
lawsuit that they won.

I know of one example, far in the past, in which Kodak was defeated
because they didn't have the right distribution chain. The product was
recording tape -- the best that I have ever used. But camera stores
aren't exactly the best place for people to buy recording tape, and
that's where it was offered. How are they getting their printers on the
shelf now?

Richard
  #17  
Old September 4th 07, 02:39 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
zakezuke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 296
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

On Sep 3, 5:19 pm, Arthur Entlich wrote:
Although not yet available in Canada, and without comment about
reliability or quality or other issues, Kodak is trying to break the
business model currently in use, by charging more for the hardware and
lowering prices on the consumables considerably. So far they haven't
seems to make the splash I was hoping for (I don't know how they feel
about it).



I wasn't too excited about the prices of Kodak consumables. The last
time I looked at their prices they were on par with bci-3e/bci-6 canon
in terms of cost per page. Don't get me wrong, the printer prices
were reasonable and the consumable price was also reasonable.


  #18  
Old September 4th 07, 02:52 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
NotMe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 136
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:fw1Di.125315$rX4.7991@pd7urf2no...
| Although not yet available in Canada, and without comment about
| reliability or quality or other issues, Kodak is trying to break the
| business model currently in use, by charging more for the hardware and
| lowering prices on the consumables considerably. So far they haven't
| seems to make the splash I was hoping for (I don't know how they feel
| about it).
|
| It might be interesting for a company/retailer to offer some type of
| consumable contract, where you would buy the hardware which came with a
| one or more year consumable contract for a flat fee (depending upon the
| item) and that would allow the person to buy consumables at a steep
| discount. The only problem would be people abusing it by buying one
| contract and using it to supply consumables for many machines which they
| didn't buy the contract for.
|
| However, that is almost beginning to sound like a lease program as some
| companies like Xerox has offered on their high end copiers...

Much of Xerox's lease business model was based on patents. When the patents
expired the lease model went away as a viable option for Xerox.


  #19  
Old September 4th 07, 05:12 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
zakezuke
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 296
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply

On Sep 3, 6:18 pm, Richard Steinfeld
wrote:
I'm curious about this Kodak situation. Maybe they're moving into the
market carefully and slowly. I'm not familiar with their inkjet printers
at all. I can't think of any time that anyone here has discussed them! I
can't recall ever seeing a Kodak inkjet for sale. I understand that
they've been just rebadged machines from established manufacturers with
incompatible cartridges. Anyone know?

What kind of marketing has Kodak used already? Who sells their printers?

But in this case, these are Kodak's own machines (or made for them) that
are designed for their own ink formula.



Kodak has a few "easyshare" printers. OfficeDepot offers the 5300 and
the 5500.
IIRC they use a $10 cartridge which offers 400p @ 5% yield. 2.5c/page
is decent, not ground breaking, but acceptable. The lowest model in
the chain for an aio is the 5100, which is a decent deal at $150.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...equestid=12167

Needless to say bestbuy offers them as well.

To be honest I have yet to see one in action. based on what i'm
reading, they are using pigment based inks. That at least would make
life interesting for epson. To be honest I was presuming they were
dye based.

The biggest "boom" they seem to be offering is AIO models sub $200
with small cheapish cartridges. I can't say they are moving into the
market slowly/carefully, they sort of hit the market head on. I heard
about them from the local radio and posts here.

  #20  
Old September 4th 07, 07:49 AM posted to comp.periphs.printers
measekite
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,433
Default Epson wins litigation - aftermarket carts already in short supply



NotMe wrote:
"Barry Watzman" wrote in message
...
| "If we want our rights as consumers to be protected ...."
|
| The manufacturers do have some rights also. I understand not liking it,
| it makes things more expensive for us as consumers. But the
| manufacturers did put in huge up-front engineering effort to invent
| these things, and the did get patents on their products.
|
|
| Arthur Entlich wrote:
| I replied to this posting as though it was legitimate. It may not be,
| but the problem does exist. Manufacturers of inkjet printers are
| winning injunctions against many 3rd party suppliers, and I have read of
| several just last week with Epson products from legitimate sources.
|
| The mechanisms are the same regardless of the veracity of this
| particular posting below, the availability will suffer as more and more
| 3rd party manufacturers are loaded with fines and other injunctions
| which make the cost of continuing not worthwhile.
|
| If we want our rights as consumers to be protected, so we can purchase
| 3rd party cartridges or ink and fill our printers with them, we need to
| get the countries which have such legislation to start looking carefully
| at the Court decisions coming down and their validity.
|
|
| Art

snip

Most of these are design patents that are very limited in scope. While
design patents have a place the use in this instance is strictly to restrict
competition.

There is no substantial competition making a quality product. They are
protecting themselves from spending money on warranty service that is
not justified and having a fly by night damaging their reputatuon.
With regard to the USA the current political mine set is such that we will
play h*ll securing any consumer protection. Recall the fight over the
pending FCC spectrum auction and the net neutrality?



 




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