Dye ink

Arthur Entlich wrote in news:PAfui.41072$_d2.8699
@pd7urf3no:


I have some black socks that in some lighting (like at the Laundromat
which has fluorescent lighting) look identical in color, and they
sometimes get "paired" together incorrectly because they otherwise look
the same. Then I go out in daylight, and one of the pair is still what
I'd call a neutral black, but the other one goes a deep reddish purple.
Pretty much anyone with full human color vision would probably see the
difference. It's quite strange, actually.


Way back in elementary school, I recall looking very close at some
textbooks, and they were printed with what appeared a very dark purple,
brown, or green.

Hi Art,

When I was doing Weddings it was sometimes a problem for the reason you have
noted. The tuxedos would sometimes shift. Look good in the store where pants
and jackets come from differing groups. With film it was a problem getting
things more correct. There are a number of anamalous reflecting issues in
nature as well as in dyes.

Talk to you soon.

Ron Baird
Eastman Kodak Company

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:PAfui.41072$_d2.8699@pd7urf3no...
I have some black socks that in some lighting (like at the Laundromat which
has fluorescent lighting) look identical in color, and they sometimes get
"paired" together incorrectly because they otherwise look the same. Then I
go out in daylight, and one of the pair is still what I'd call a neutral
black, but the other one goes a deep reddish purple. Pretty much anyone
with full human color vision would probably see the difference. It's quite
strange, actually.

Epson had a real problem with metameric failure with their yellow pigment
inks. They first tried changing the drivers to distribute the dot
placement differently, which helped, but at the end of the day they had to
formulate a new yellow ink using different pigments and a different
particle size. The problem is more obvious with pigment inks, probably
due to the way they sit on the paper surface, which causes certain
interference light patterns to occur between the ink dots.

We tend to forget that what we perceive as color is actually the
reflection and/or absorption of light wavelengths, and that those
reflected light waves can get quite influenced by one another.

Art

Richard Steinfeld wrote:

Arthur Entlich wrote:


Some reading for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color)

Art


Richard Steinfeld wrote:

Meta-what??


Thanks. A good explanation of perception/psychology. So, the fact that my
car's paint and matching plastic unpainted door handles represent quite
an achievement. They seem to always look identical regardless of the
light, but now I'm going to look more closely. Who woulda thunk?

And, yes: I've known about those awful spectral "curves" that fluorescent
bulbs put out for many years since I saw them represented in a
professional Kodak technical manual. I can't see how they can be fixed,
since the real charts look something like an earthquake graph. I've
recently removed the compact fluorescents I was using for eBay photos and
replaced them with regular incandescent bulbs because I simply could not
correct my photos adequately. The newer bulbs are better than the
old-type fluorescents, but they're still pretty poor.

We obviously color-balance for compact fluorescents quite a bit in our
minds. The camera does not lie. So, I wonder how the inks come through
this test -- will good aftermarket inks produce results as good as the
car manufacturers?

Very illuminating.

Richard

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:3sgui.41115$_d2.27818@pd7urf3no...
No, it helps distract people from noticing I have two left feet. ;-)

hehe. Thats a good one Art.

Mary

Art

Rob wrote:

Arthur Entlich wrote:

I have some black socks that in some lighting (like at the Laundromat
which has fluorescent lighting) look identical in color, and they
sometimes get "paired" together incorrectly because they otherwise
look the same. Then I go out in daylight, and one of the pair is
still what I'd call a neutral black, but the other one goes a deep
reddish purple. Pretty much anyone with full human color vision would
probably see the difference. It's quite strange, actually.


So the big question on everyone's lips now - Do you get embarrassed when
you wear odd socks?

r

Thank you all, this is a really competent group. With a little patiens
(I wish I could spell, I'm only marginally better in my native
language) the answers came dumping. So far I have found out that you
cannot use pigment where dye is intended, someone said that Epson was
OK with the change that is not so, I have one sitting in my bedroom to
prove it, and the Canon does not like it eather. The reason I'm not
bying a printer that is made for pigment is that they all have the
aditional colors green and red witch makes it impossibel for me to use
my newley aquiret Eye One icc maker that only works with RGB. I think
the software to handel my problem cost around 2000£.
On the subjekt of light, I just installed flouresent in our photoclub,
the tubes are made for printing and grafical work and does not have
the sometimes horrible effect on colors, we just spend to much time on
people saying that at home it looked all different.

Hans Jørgen

I am perhaps the someone who said you can use pigment ink in a dye Epson
printer, and I stand by that statement, as do thousands of others who
have successfully done it.

The Epson 1270, 1290 and 3000 are probably the three most commonly used
dye ink printers that get switched, but most, if not all will handle the
change, as long as you use the right pigment inks. There rae a number
of 3rd party manufacturers who make pigment inksets for Epson dye
printers. So, if yours isn't working I'd like to know which model it is
and which inks were used, and if you flushed the heads properly (if used
with dye inks previously) before adding the pigment inks.

As to the red and green, no Epson printer uses red and green ink. The
R800 and R1800 use blue and red ink, but the others which come with
pigment inks, use CcMmYKk-k or similar configurations. Also Epson makes
a whole series of CMYK pigment ink printers, in the C series using the
Durabrite Ultra inks, which are less clogging than the plain Durabrite inks.

Art

Hans Jørgen wrote:

Thank you all, this is a really competent group. With a little patiens
(I wish I could spell, I'm only marginally better in my native
language) the answers came dumping. So far I have found out that you
cannot use pigment where dye is intended, someone said that Epson was
OK with the change that is not so, I have one sitting in my bedroom to
prove it, and the Canon does not like it eather. The reason I'm not
bying a printer that is made for pigment is that they all have the
aditional colors green and red witch makes it impossibel for me to use
my newley aquiret Eye One icc maker that only works with RGB. I think
the software to handel my problem cost around 2000£.
On the subjekt of light, I just installed flouresent in our photoclub,
the tubes are made for printing and grafical work and does not have
the sometimes horrible effect on colors, we just spend to much time on
people saying that at home it looked all different.

Hans Jørgen

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:h9Cvi.54484$rX4.20884@pd7urf2no...
I am perhaps the someone who said you can use pigment ink in a dye Epson
printer, and I stand by that statement, as do thousands of others who have
successfully done it.

The Epson 1270, 1290 and 3000 are probably the three most commonly used
dye ink printers that get switched, but most, if not all will handle the
change, as long as you use the right pigment inks. There rae a number of
3rd party manufacturers who make pigment inksets for Epson dye printers.
So, if yours isn't working I'd like to know which model it is and which
inks were used, and if you flushed the heads properly (if used with dye
inks previously) before adding the pigment inks.

As to the red and green, no Epson printer uses red and green ink. The
R800 and R1800 use blue and red ink, but the others which come with
pigment inks, use CcMmYKk-k or similar configurations. Also Epson makes a
whole series of CMYK pigment ink printers, in the C series using the
Durabrite Ultra inks, which are less clogging than the plain Durabrite
inks.

Art

Hans Jørgen wrote:

Thank you all, this is a really competent group. With a little patiens
(I wish I could spell, I'm only marginally better in my native
language) the answers came dumping. So far I have found out that you
cannot use pigment where dye is intended, someone said that Epson was
OK with the change that is not so, I have one sitting in my bedroom to
prove it, and the Canon does not like it eather. The reason I'm not
bying a printer that is made for pigment is that they all have the
aditional colors green and red witch makes it impossibel for me to use
my newley aquiret Eye One icc maker that only works with RGB. I think
the software to handel my problem cost around 2000£.
On the subjekt of light, I just installed flouresent in our photoclub,
the tubes are made for printing and grafical work and does not have
the sometimes horrible effect on colors, we just spend to much time on
people saying that at home it looked all different.

Hans Jørgen


The Canon iP8500 and i9900 printers use eight color carts including red and
green. These are dye-based inks. Because the method of delivering ink to
paper involves minute heating elements in the printhead you would probably
have fatal clogs using pigment-based inks. Epsons use piezo-electric energy
to deliver the ink. This approach doesn't require heating the ink like the
Canons.

On 12 Aug., 13:28, Arthur Entlich wrote:
I am perhaps the someone who said you can use pigment ink in a dye Epson
printer, and I stand by that statement, as do thousands of others who
have successfully done it.

The Epson 1270, 1290 and 3000 are probably the three most commonly used
dye ink printers that get switched, but most, if not all will handle the
change, as long as you use the right pigment inks. There rae a number
of 3rd party manufacturers who make pigment inksets for Epson dye
printers. So, if yours isn't working I'd like to know which model it is
and which inks were used, and if you flushed the heads properly (if used
with dye inks previously) before adding the pigment inks.

The printer is the Epson Stylus Photo 950 and the pigmentet ink is
Ultracrome from EuroInk (http://www.proprint.co.uk/)
And no I did not flush - I had no idear you were supposed to do such a
thing !!!
I just emptied the old cart and fill it with dye. I then cleaned and
printed a lot of pictures untill the carts were redy for refill,
refilled and cleaned a few times and got a red light, and I have'nt
herd from the printer since.


As to the red and green, no Epson printer uses red and green ink. The
R800 and R1800 use blue and red ink, but the others which come with
pigment inks, use CcMmYKk-k or similar configurations. Also Epson makes
a whole series of CMYK pigment ink printers, in the C series using the
Durabrite Ultra inks, which are less clogging than the plain Durabrite inks.

My point is that the Eye One I have bought only makes icc profiles for
RGB or CMYK printers and the software for more than three colors are
expensive, but I think that is what you are saying.

It sounds exiting with the Epson C series I will look into it.

Hans Jørgen

The Canon iP8500 and i9900 printers use eight color carts including red and
green. These are dye-based inks. Because the method of delivering ink to
paper involves minute heating elements in the printhead you would probably
have fatal clogs using pigment-based inks. Epsons use piezo-electric energy
to deliver the ink. This approach doesn't require heating the ink like the
Canons.- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn -

You are right, for some reason I thought that the Canon iX5000 used
pigmented ink - maybe because Canon gives a non fading garanti.

Hans Jørgen

"Hans Jørgen" wrote in message
oups.com...
The Canon iP8500 and i9900 printers use eight color carts including red
and
green. These are dye-based inks. Because the method of delivering ink
to
paper involves minute heating elements in the printhead you would probably
have fatal clogs using pigment-based inks. Epsons use piezo-electric
energy
to deliver the ink. This approach doesn't require heating the ink like
the
Canons.- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn -

You are right, for some reason I thought that the Canon iX5000 used
pigmented ink - maybe because Canon gives a non fading garanti.

Hans Jørgen

Hans - I have read that there are new Canon units that use pigment-based
inks. I don't know the model numbers. Anyone can look them up at the Canon
web site or Google.

If you want pigmented ink then get a pigmented printer. Bye Bye
warranty if you do this Epson disapproved thing.

Arthur Entlich wrote:
I am perhaps the someone who said you can use pigment ink in a dye
Epson printer, and I stand by that statement, as do thousands of
others who have successfully done it.

The Epson 1270, 1290 and 3000 are probably the three most commonly
used dye ink printers that get switched, but most, if not all will
handle the change, as long as you use the right pigment inks. There
rae a number of 3rd party manufacturers who make pigment inksets for
Epson dye printers. So, if yours isn't working I'd like to know which
model it is and which inks were used, and if you flushed the heads
properly (if used with dye inks previously) before adding the pigment
inks.

As to the red and green, no Epson printer uses red and green ink. The
R800 and R1800 use blue and red ink, but the others which come with
pigment inks, use CcMmYKk-k or similar configurations. Also Epson
makes a whole series of CMYK pigment ink printers, in the C series
using the Durabrite Ultra inks, which are less clogging than the plain
Durabrite inks.

Art

Hans Jørgen wrote:

Thank you all, this is a really competent group. With a little patiens
(I wish I could spell, I'm only marginally better in my native
language) the answers came dumping. So far I have found out that you
cannot use pigment where dye is intended, someone said that Epson was
OK with the change that is not so, I have one sitting in my bedroom to
prove it, and the Canon does not like it eather. The reason I'm not
bying a printer that is made for pigment is that they all have the
aditional colors green and red witch makes it impossibel for me to use
my newley aquiret Eye One icc maker that only works with RGB. I think
the software to handel my problem cost around 2000£.
On the subjekt of light, I just installed flouresent in our photoclub,
the tubes are made for printing and grafical work and does not have
the sometimes horrible effect on colors, we just spend to much time on
people saying that at home it looked all different.

Hans Jørgen