which ink is likely to run out first?

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:cLjti.31647$fJ5.888@pd7urf1no...
Yes, the paper and the ink work together to determine how fade resistant
the print will be, particularly with dye inks.

Pigment inks are fairly fade resistant on their own, regardless of the
paper they are on. Of course, as mentioned they don't print well on
swellable polymer papers in most cases.

On the other hand, dye inks can benefit from the paper type. It can
make a substantial difference, over doubling the fade resistance with
the right combination.

I would have to try different photo papers I guess, but I am wondering if
the photo paper I already use mostly of the time
(Kodakm double sided, semi gloss, 7 ml) would last well and be fade
resistant. That photo paper is hard to find in stores near me.

Mary

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:j2bti.29821$_d2.11792@pd7urf3no...

There should be an address on the ink cartridges and an email or
website. Contact the appropriate offices and ask. If you can't get an
answer from them, and no one has done testing that is published (likely
the case) then you are left deciding for yourself what the saving is
worth versus other alternatives.


Art,
I checked the ink cartridge. I don't see any address there. Just a phone
number which is Staples Customer service where you order Staples items
from
the catalog.On the cartridge box it says The Business Depot in Markham,
Ontario. (probably old boxes). As you probably know, Staples bought them
out. On the other side of the box it says "made in Germany, with
components
from France, Switzerland and the Netherlands. I wonder why it needs to
involve 4 countries just for cartridge ink. On the same side it also
says
"Business Depot" and "Staples/Business Depot" brand cartridges are not
affiliated with Canon." and " Canon BCI and BJC are registered trade
marks
of Canon Kabushiki. Canon has not sponsored or approved this
Staples/Business Depot cartridge. Model numbers of Canon are identified
for
compatibility purposes only". The usual legal stuff I guess.
I'm a bit confused here. Didn't you say that the photopaper can also
make a
difference how fade resistant photos will be
rather than the type of ink?

Thanks.

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:myEsi.27118$rX4.13306@pd7urf2no...


Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples
bought
Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used in
Staples
ink refill cartridges.


Is Korectype dye based and any good. I used Staples compatibles a lot

with

my Canon IP 1500 which I stil use occasionally, and continued with

Staples

when I got the IP 4000. Ordinary printing is fine, and photo printing

seems

to be ok and like I said, I mostly print indoor photos with flas of

family,

relatives, etc.not all that often, but when I do, I print quite a few

photos

to send to them. I've always thought that digital cameras are much

better

suited to sending jpgs in the mail, than printing stills though I like

my

digital camera.



I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer these
types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can find out
how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever, they
may
refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.


The only people I see when I go to Staples is the sales clerks, and
they
wouldn't know anything about that. In fact, in the area of computers, I
usually know more than they do. And in the area of inks or photo paper

they

wouldn't know. They don't get training about inks and I would doubt the
Manager would know.

Mary

"Bob Headrick" wrote in message
...
"Mary" wrote in message ...

Thank you for the information. I looked at some of the information on
the
link you provided above, but some of the information on the tables
stating
different brands of printers is hard to figure out, such as under the
column
"Display Permanence reading" - some figures are 38, others are 8 for
that
column, but I don't know what the numbers mean.

The table shows the number of years for a photo printed with a particular
printer and paper combination to show "years before noticable fading
and/or
changes in color balance occur" for photos stored under glass. As you can
see there is considerable difference depending on the paper used.
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ist/...2007_03_HW.pdf is more recent
and shows even more dramatic results. [This is for 4x6 photo printers, but
the results should be similar with full size photo printers using the same
ink and paper combinations.]

That graph is a bit easier to figure out but when I looked again at the link
you gave me yesterday, I noticed the "years" part at the right side, which I
didn't see at first glance. But the graph on the above link lists photo
paper brands, but both links have good information. My printer (Canon IP
4000) and the photo paper I often use (Kodak Picture Paper, semi gloss,
double sided 8 1/2X11" is not listed. I also sometimes have used Kodak
Anytime Picture Paper , soft gloss, and its not that bad either. I get Kodak
because it has soft gloss or semi gloss at reasonable price, though semi
gloss is getting harder to find where I am located (Toronto, Canada). Also,
most photo paper I see sold here in stores is glossy or high gloss and I
don't care much for it. I like semi gloss or soft gloss better. I admit I
don't want to pay $22.00 for just 10 or 15 sheets of photo paper.

The article mentions its
better to follow the manufacturers suggestions for paper and ink, but I
suppose one would have to test various papers. So far, I have tried
Canon
semi gloss, 10ml which turned out nice -colors are very bright), and I
have
been using Kodak Semi gloss double sides which is only 7 ml, but has
been
ok
for some of my printing though maybe 7 ml is not too good for photo to
last
for years.

The overall thickness of the paper does not have much effect on longevity.
The important factor is the formulation of the coating which varies widely
by manufacturer.

Well, I don't know much about coating. I would have to try different photo
papers in semi gloss or soft gloss.
Thank you for your help.

Mary

Hi Art,

Yes, you are right, Kodak went to microporous papers about a year and half
ago or there abouts. The changed the back printing to coincide with the new
printer technology as well. There may be some paper out in the marketplace,
but Kodak no longer makes swellable inkjet paper as of 2006. If you find
some, it is it is sold under the brandname of Kodak Ultima photo paper. Also
there is some swellable paper under the Kodak Premium photo paper but it
will say made in the USA or canada and it doesn't have the new packaging.
Current papers use the newer Microporous technology.

Talk to you soon,

Ron Baird
Eastman Kodak Company



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:TZati.30979$fJ5.24778@pd7urf1no...
Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink will
soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer remains
water soluble.

To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface which
has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The surface
under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the same
material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to lock the
ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it tends to be set
in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively waterproof. However,
since the surface if full of holes, energized ink molecules (from UV
light, or other chemical sources) can escape through those holes, and do
(thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled molecules.
Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals all are these
types of materials. When the ink hits these materials the liquid makes
the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles and makes space,
where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries, and locks the
colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower drying
and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer. Even when
dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged mechanically ,
and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and fingerprints may
damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting some
that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed image)
and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in the water the
ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a finger and
touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets quite sticky. If
so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years. The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to fingerprints
and dampness.


I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to
look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive, and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They don't
even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.


Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


Art


Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:lhUri.21055$fJ5.7959@pd7urf1no...


OK, now that I know the printer model I can comment further.

Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text and is
used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink

The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images. They
are
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo

type).


The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite fade
resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.


Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a while? how
long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but

keep

them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put in an
album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and they
seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show

fading

quicker than outside photos?



However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a pigment
ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye black
ink
in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in text
only applications.

The nature of the head and dot size is often also different between dye
ink and pigment inks.


I like the Canon IP 4000 printer. It prints nicely, but because it uses

dye

inks, will it print indoor photos that will last for years?

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:k3jri.17750$rX4.198@pd7urf2no...



You didn't mention which printer you are using. That would help in
determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for

which

you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both
might
be the identical type of ink.


Sorry,I should have been more clear. I have a Canon IP 4000. My
printer

has


two black slots. One for a fat black cartridge and one for a thin
black
cartridge plus 3 colour cartridges - yellow, magenta and cyan.




Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some use all
dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
installed at once?


I don't know what kind of ink they have. All cartridges have to be

installed


and have ink in them for the printer to work.

Mary

"Ron Baird" wrote in message
om...
Hi Art,

Yes, you are right, Kodak went to microporous papers about a year and half
ago or there abouts. The changed the back printing to coincide with the
new
printer technology as well. There may be some paper out in the
marketplace,
but Kodak no longer makes swellable inkjet paper as of 2006. If you find
some, it is it is sold under the brandname of Kodak Ultima photo paper.
Also
there is some swellable paper under the Kodak Premium photo paper but it
will say made in the USA or canada and it doesn't have the new packaging.
Current papers use the newer Microporous technology.

Hi Ron. Can I cut in here? If you have been following some of this thread, I
have been using Kodak "Picture Paper", double sided, soft gloss 8 1/2X11, 7
ml thickness, for a few years now. I use it mostly for printing indoor
photos of people with flash. I have a Canon printer IP4000 which I like. I
like the Kodak Picture paper quite well because I like semi or soft gloss,
rather than glossy. Its also reasonably priced compared to some other
brands. What do you think of it?
The only bad thing about it is, that photopaper is hard to find (I'm in
Toronto Canada). Staples used to carry it, but haven't stocked it for a
couple of years. Its only available from their catalog, but $15.00 for
delivery unless you buy $50.00 worth of stuff, so I won't go that route. I
found my present paper at a drug store which doesn't usually stock photo
paper.
I also occasionally use Kodak Anytime Picture Paper, soft gloss, when I can
find it.Its 6ml. It print photos better than I thought.

Mary

Talk to you soon,

Ron Baird
Eastman Kodak Company



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:TZati.30979$fJ5.24778@pd7urf1no...
Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak can
probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus microporous.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will
soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains
water soluble.

To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which
has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The surface
under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the same
material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to lock the
ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it tends to be set
in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively waterproof. However,
since the surface if full of holes, energized ink molecules (from UV
light, or other chemical sources) can escape through those holes, and do
(thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled molecules.
Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals all are these
types of materials. When the ink hits these materials the liquid makes
the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles and makes space,
where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries, and locks the
colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying
and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer. Even when
dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged mechanically
,
and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and fingerprints may
damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting some
that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed image)
and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in the water
the
ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a finger and
touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets quite sticky.
If
so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years.
The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them in
a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to
fingerprints
and dampness.


I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to
look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive,
and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They don't
even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it
but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They
don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2 years
to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.


Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


Art


Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:lhUri.21055$fJ5.7959@pd7urf1no...


OK, now that I know the printer model I can comment further.

Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text and
is
used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink

The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images. They
are
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo

type).


The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite
fade
resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.


Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a while?
how
long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but

keep

them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put in
an
album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and
they
seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show

fading

quicker than outside photos?



However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a
pigment
ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye black
ink
in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in
text
only applications.

The nature of the head and dot size is often also different between
dye
ink and pigment inks.


I like the Canon IP 4000 printer. It prints nicely, but because it
uses

dye

inks, will it print indoor photos that will last for years?

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:k3jri.17750$rX4.198@pd7urf2no...



You didn't mention which printer you are using. That would help in
determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for

which

you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both
might
be the identical type of ink.


Sorry,I should have been more clear. I have a Canon IP 4000. My
printer

has


two black slots. One for a fat black cartridge and one for a thin
black
cartridge plus 3 colour cartridges - yellow, magenta and cyan.




Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some use
all
dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
installed at once?


I don't know what kind of ink they have. All cartridges have to be

installed


and have ink in them for the printer to work.

Mary

Arthur Entlich wrote:
I have measekite filtered from my newsgroups, so I don't usually get
to read his nonsense unless it it gets quoted.

I also have long winded holier than thou beat around da bush filtered
out also.
I got tired of cutting him to ribbons, so I guess he feels like he can
make these snide comments now that I don't see them or respond.

But you do see them. Even in this post he thinks of me.
I hope he's getting a lot of joy from it.

:-D
I'm just glad to be rid of the nuisance.

But since I saw this, I'll expand slightly on the matter. When I
refer to retailers I am not referring to nor expecting the sales
clerks to have the answers to these questions.

Oh Yeah one who expects nothing is never disappointed and that is why so
many in this ng is not dissappointed with junk ink since they do not
excpect to see nice quality prints.

Retailers usually have email addresses and website and other methods
of requesting information regarding their products. This complexity
might be well beyond measekite's ability to comprehend, but for most
people reading here, I'm sure they fully understood that the
information might be beyond that of a sales clerk to answer.

It might be beyond one who asks the questions too.

Art


Jim Robinson wrote:
measekite wrote in
:


Arthur Entlich wrote:

Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples
bought Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used
in Staples ink refill cartridges.

I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer
these types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can
find
out how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever,
they may refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.

Now that is a bright answer. Ask a clerk that gets about the
minimum wage to answer that type of question when he can barely
direct you to
a product that is on the shelf and has not been relocated since he was
hired.



Art wasn't referring to your own work experience at Staples stocking
the shelves. But continue, we learn more and more about your failed
jobs. How hard can it be to stock a shelf! JR

Arthur Entlich wrote:
Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak
can probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus
microporous.

You should not have to ask anyone. It should be labeled on the package
where people can read it.

In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.

To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The
surface under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the
same material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to
lock the ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it
tends to be set in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively
waterproof. However, since the surface if full of holes, energized ink
molecules (from UV light, or other chemical sources) can escape
through those holes, and do (thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled
molecules. Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals
all are these types of materials. When the ink hits these materials
the liquid makes the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles
and makes space, where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries,
and locks the colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer.
Even when dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged
mechanically , and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and
fingerprints may damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting
some that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed
image) and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in
the water the ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a
finger and touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets
quite sticky. If so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years.
The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them
in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to
fingerprints
and dampness.


I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to
look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive, and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They
don't even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it
but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They
don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2
years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.


Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


Art


Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:lhUri.21055$fJ5.7959@pd7urf1no...


OK, now that I know the printer model I can comment further.

Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text
and is
used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink

The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images.
They are
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo

type).


The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite
fade
resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.


Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a
while? how
long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but

keep

them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put
in an
album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and
they
seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show

fading

quicker than outside photos?



However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a
pigment
ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye
black ink
in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in
text
only applications.

The nature of the head and dot size is often also different
between dye
ink and pigment inks.


I like the Canon IP 4000 printer. It prints nicely, but because it
uses

dye

inks, will it print indoor photos that will last for years?

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:k3jri.17750$rX4.198@pd7urf2no...



You didn't mention which printer you are using. That would help in
determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for

which

you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both
might
be the identical type of ink.


Sorry,I should have been more clear. I have a Canon IP 4000. My
printer

has


two black slots. One for a fat black cartridge and one for a thin
black
cartridge plus 3 colour cartridges - yellow, magenta and cyan.




Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some
use all
dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
installed at once?


I don't know what kind of ink they have. All cartridges have to be

installed


and have ink in them for the printer to work.

Mary

Arthur Entlich wrote:
Just to be clear, when you say:

For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.

I have been saying that for al long time and Canon ink has wven got better.

Are those just Canon printer designated dye inks (OEM and 3rd party),
or also Epson, Lexmark, HP designated inks, etc?


Art

Ray wrote:

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:50:14 -0400, "Mary" wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several
years. The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them
in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will
improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to
fingerprints
and dampness.

I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem
to look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive,
and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They
don't even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock
it but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They
don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2
years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.

Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.

measekite wrote:



Arthur Entlich wrote:

Just to be clear, when you say:

For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.


I have been saying that for al long time and Canon ink has wven got better.
Hobbicolors inks give much better results than canon oem does.


Are those just Canon printer designated dye inks (OEM and 3rd party),
or also Epson, Lexmark, HP designated inks, etc?


Art

Ray wrote:

On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 16:50:14 -0400, "Mary" wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several
years. The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them
in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will
improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to
fingerprints
and dampness.


I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem
to look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive,
and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They
don't even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock
it but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They
don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2
years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.


Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


For photo longevity Canon ink is better than any of the other brands
that I have tested. I have not tested Staples, but I would be
surprised if it is as good as Canon.

measekite wrote:



Arthur Entlich wrote:

Kodak has changed their paper technology many times over the last few
years. I have at least three types here, and Ron Baird, from Kodak
can probably tell you which types are swellable polymer versus
microporous.


You should not have to ask anyone.
always ask...especially if a real expert is available to answer like Ron B.
It should be labeled on the package
where people can read it.
If in doubt, always ask.


In general, swellable polymer technology is not waterproof. The ink
will soak off the surface with a bit of hot water, because the polymer
remains water soluble.

To give you a bit more detail:

Microporous paper surfaces usually have a ceramic or plastic surface
which has microscopic holes which allow the ink to pass through. The
surface under it is usually a clay coating called kaolin which is the
same material in white porcelain and a mordant which is designed to
lock the ink into place in this material. Once the ink is dry, it
tends to be set in the lower layer, and the ink remains relatively
waterproof. However, since the surface if full of holes, energized ink
molecules (from UV light, or other chemical sources) can escape
through those holes, and do (thus the ink colors fade).

Swellable polymer is a coating of complex long chain tangled
molecules. Gelatin, egg white, and some soluble synthetic chemicals
all are these types of materials. When the ink hits these materials
the liquid makes the polymer swell which opens up some of the tangles
and makes space, where the ink colors fits. Then, the coating dries,
and locks the colorant into these tangled molecules, sealing them in.

The only major problem with this method is that the paper is slower
drying and may be vulnerable to damage when it leaves the printer.
Even when dry, the surface tends to be softer and more easily damaged
mechanically , and finally, it remains water soluble, so dampness and
fingerprints may damage it, and the ink may wash out of wet.

In general, you can determine a swellable polymer paper by wetting
some that is printed (it will ruin the print, so use scrap or a failed
image) and see if the surface becomes sticky, or even washes off in
the water the ink begins to run. You may be able to tell by wetting a
finger and touching a corner of a non-print area and see if it gets
quite sticky. If so, it is probably swellable polymer.

Art


Mary wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:VhEsi.25613$_d2.15864@pd7urf3no...

Hi Mary,

Dye inks, overall, are not as light stable as pigment inks. Canon has
been improving their dye ink longevity over the last several years.
The
Canon OEM inks, while better than many 3rd party are still not shining
examples in the industry of long life fade-resistance.

This is not to suggest they will fade away indoors in dark keeping.
Fluorescent lamps, outdoor natural and halogen bulbs probably provide
the most fade-causing UV light. To protect your images, store them
in a
relatively dry and pollution free area. Ground Ozone and other
pollutants including carbon monoxide (from the exhaust of cars) are
tough on dye ink prints.

Using a swellable polymer paper, if the results look good, will improve
the permanence of dye inks, but they are more vulnerable to
fingerprints
and dampness.



I usually use Kodak double sided semi gloss photo paper which seem to
look
ok, though its just 7 ml it says on the front of the Kodak package.What
company makes swellable polymer paper? I find that Staples are the only
place near me in Toronto to buy photo paper and its quite expensive, and
they don't seem to have an awful lot of variety. Just basic. They
don't even
have the double sided semi gloss I like, though they used to stock it
but
now just have it in their catalog. I got some a couple of weeks ago in
Shoppers, though thats all they had in the way of photo paper. They
don't
usually stock any. I like the semi gloss photo paper I have, but its
become
hard to find, and I don't think its a regular item in Shoppers.


Depending upon the ink set, Canon dye inks rate between about 2
years to
25 years. Most current Canon inkset are toward the mid high range.



Would Staples compatible cartridges be similar?

Mary


Art


Mary wrote:


"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:lhUri.21055$fJ5.7959@pd7urf1no...


OK, now that I know the printer model I can comment further.

Your printer has 5 cartridges. The large black one is for text
and is
used exclusively for that purpose. That is a pigment ink

The other four cartridges are all dye ink and used for images.
They are
Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and the smaller of the two Black (dye or photo


type).


The reason for this is that pigment ink provides a sharper and denser
black with plain paper, and may even dry faster. It also is quite
fade
resistant, and often is waterproof once dry.



Does that mean the photos I sometimes print will fade after a
while? how
long will they last before fading? I didn't put them in an album but


keep

them together in a dark area in my closet. I have too many to put
in an
album and some of them I have printed and sent to family members and
friends. I printed them on Kodak double sided, semi gloss paper and
they
seem to look quite good. I mainly have printed indoor photos of people
mostly with flash rather than outside photos. Do indoor photos show


fading

quicker than outside photos?



However, this ink doesn't integrate well with the color dye inks. It
sits on the surface of the paper, while dye inks penetrate the paper
more. Since the characteristics differ between dye inks and a
pigment
ink, and particularly black inks which have a lot of pigment in them,
they don't merge well and would look odd in an image. Therefore, for
anything involving colored inks, your printer will use the dye
black ink
in that application, but continue to use the pigment black ink in
text
only applications.

The nature of the head and dot size is often also different
between dye
ink and pigment inks.



I like the Canon IP 4000 printer. It prints nicely, but because it
uses


dye

inks, will it print indoor photos that will last for years?

Mary



Art

Mary wrote:



"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message
news:k3jri.17750$rX4.198@pd7urf2no...



You didn't mention which printer you are using. That would help in
determine what's what. Some printers have one slot for black for


which

you can either use a larger of smaller black cartridge, and both
might
be the identical type of ink.



Sorry,I should have been more clear. I have a Canon IP 4000. My
printer


has


two black slots. One for a fat black cartridge and one for a thin
black
cartridge plus 3 colour cartridges - yellow, magenta and cyan.




Some printers use all pigment inks both black and color, some
use all
dye, and no pigment inks. Does your printer use 5 cartridges all
installed at once?



I don't know what kind of ink they have. All cartridges have to be


installed


and have ink in them for the printer to work.

Mary

measekite wrote:



Arthur Entlich wrote:

I have measekite filtered from my newsgroups, so I don't usually get
to read his nonsense unless it it gets quoted.


I also have long winded holier than thou beat around da bush filtered
out also.

I got tired of cutting him to ribbons, so I guess he feels like he can
make these snide comments now that I don't see them or respond.


But you do see them. Even in this post he thinks of me.

I hope he's getting a lot of joy from it.


:-D
:-(

I'm just glad to be rid of the nuisance.

But since I saw this, I'll expand slightly on the matter. When I
refer to retailers I am not referring to nor expecting the sales
clerks to have the answers to these questions.


Oh Yeah one who expects nothing is never disappointed and that is why so
many in this ng is not dissappointed with junk ink since they do not
excpect to see nice quality prints.


Retailers usually have email addresses and website and other methods
of requesting information regarding their products. This complexity
might be well beyond measekite's ability to comprehend, but for most
people reading here, I'm sure they fully understood that the
information might be beyond that of a sales clerk to answer.


It might be beyond one who asks the questions too.


Art


Jim Robinson wrote:

measekite wrote in
:


Arthur Entlich wrote:

Hi Mary,

I honestly have no opinion about Staples ink. I believe Staples
bought Korectype and with that, ended up with those inks being used
in Staples ink refill cartridges.

I am a believer in asking retailers and distributors to answer
these types of question from clients. I would ask them how you can
find
out how fade resistance their inks are relative to OEM or whatever,
they may refer you to the company that actually does that filling?.


Now that is a bright answer. Ask a clerk that gets about the
minimum wage to answer that type of question when he can barely
direct you to
a product that is on the shelf and has not been relocated since he was
hired.




Art wasn't referring to your own work experience at Staples stocking
the shelves. But continue, we learn more and more about your failed
jobs. How hard can it be to stock a shelf! JR