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#11
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Help - pc not turning on
rp wrote:
On Tue, 8 May 2018 15:23:42 -0000 (UTC), Yes wrote: When I press the on/off button for the pc on the front of the case, I see it start to light up but within a fraction of a second, it shuts down is the best way I can describe it - does not continue to boot up. When I press the on/off button again, nothing happens. Disconnect everything you can, apart from the motherboard. If the PSU still doesn't keep the fans running remove any video cards and try again. If it's still failing it's likely to be the PSU. It's showing signs of shutting off due to an overload and it could be the PSU that's failed. Good luck. RP, I followed your advice. I have four SATA devices - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. My pc would only recognize the CD/DVD player and one HD. Fortunately (???), that was my c: drive. I'll have to research if the data on the broken HDDs can be salvaged. I believe the SATA connectors on the mobo work. I plugged the SATA cable of the working HD into the various SATA connectors and confirmed that BIOS recognized it. John |
#12
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Help - pc not turning on
On Fri, 11 May 2018 06:53:14 -0000 (UTC), Yes wrote:
I followed your advice. I have four SATA devices - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. My pc would only recognize the CD/DVD player and one HD. Fortunately (???), that was my c: drive. I'll have to research if the data on the broken HDDs can be salvaged. I believe the SATA connectors on the mobo work. I plugged the SATA cable of the working HD into the various SATA connectors and confirmed that BIOS recognized it. I'm glad it helped. More often than not it's a drive problem but that's just in my experience and someone else may have seen more motherboard problems :-) It does sound as if you have two faulty drives. Maybe switching the power off and on too quickly caused a spike that killed them. It shouldn't happen with any power supply but maybe a budget one couldn't cope with the frequent off and ons. If it's a quality supply that's done it I'd replace it as I would take that as a sign of future trouble looming. -- Regards - Rodney Pont The from address exists but is mostly dumped, please send any emails to the address below e-mail rpont (at) gmail (dot) com |
#13
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Help - pc not turning on
rp wrote:
On Fri, 11 May 2018 06:53:14 -0000 (UTC), Yes wrote: I followed your advice. I have four SATA devices - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. My pc would only recognize the CD/DVD player and one HD. Fortunately (???), that was my c: drive. I'll have to research if the data on the broken HDDs can be salvaged. I believe the SATA connectors on the mobo work. I plugged the SATA cable of the working HD into the various SATA connectors and confirmed that BIOS recognized it. I'm glad it helped. More often than not it's a drive problem but that's just in my experience and someone else may have seen more motherboard problems :-) It does sound as if you have two faulty drives. Maybe switching the power off and on too quickly caused a spike that killed them. It shouldn't happen with any power supply but maybe a budget one couldn't cope with the frequent off and ons. If it's a quality supply that's done it I'd replace it as I would take that as a sign of future trouble looming. You can actually burn the TVS diodes on a hard drive, if the power supply overvoltage lasts long enough. https://community.wd.com/t/hdd-tvs-diode-faq/14692 Unfortunately, modern hard drive circuit boards are turned component-side-in so you cannot see the diodes. Older drives, you could see the TVS diodes near the power inlet point on the drive. I didn't know these existed at first, until someone posted that they had a hard drive problem and "what are these two burned things". And that kicked off my first search for what those might be. The person who posted, came up with the theory, and I could find mention of those on the web. They exist to support hot plugging. Even IDE drives have been loaded into trays for hot insertion (with the right circuit design), and to protect the drive from power transients (inductive kick because hard drive motor +12V is still flowing), the TVS clips the tops off any inductive spikes. That's what it's supposed to do. If a power supply overvolts for a long period of time, those TVS burn. The TVS don't do well in the presence of a supply failure. ******* A power supply should not overvolt like that and I would replace it immediately. There is a certain model of Bestec supply which is famous for overvolting. It was used on Emachines. When the supply failed, it would destroy all the storage on the computer. That's because at least one rail would go too high. Things like the CPU and the RAM would be OK, because they're protected by onboard regulation. ******* The power supply has an "inrush limiter". http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html It's NTCR1 in the upper left corner. It needs to cool off, to return to a high-resistance state. The next time you turn on the supply (at the back), NTCR1 forms an RC circuit to limit the charging rate of the main caps (C5/C6). When NTCR1 warms up, it stays in a low resistance state (negative temperature coefficient). To treat that device well, if you turn off the supply at the back, wait at least 30 seconds before turning on again. That's to give NTCR1 a chance to cool off, and get ready for the next "inrush". The inrush current can be on the order of 40 amps, so it's no joke. (The value is printed in some spec sheets.) On modern supplies, some of them use the Active PFC circuit as an inrush limiter, so NTCR1 is no longer required. But that component has nothing to do with "overvolting behavior". And even if you kill the power at the back, the main caps (C5/C6) provide "hold-up time". You would have to hammer the switch on the back, as the rails were falling or something. You would need to be a "merciless switch puncher" to manage to damage stuff. Um, don't do that. One other dude already learned this lesson. He posted "I hit the switch on the back, like 50 times, and something blew". Yes, something can blow. Paul |
#14
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Help - pc not turning on
rp wrote:
On Fri, 11 May 2018 06:53:14 -0000 (UTC), Yes wrote: I followed your advice. I have four SATA devices - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. My pc would only recognize the CD/DVD player and one HD. Fortunately (???), that was my c: drive. I'll have to research if the data on the broken HDDs can be salvaged. I believe the SATA connectors on the mobo work. I plugged the SATA cable of the working HD into the various SATA connectors and confirmed that BIOS recognized it. I'm glad it helped. More often than not it's a drive problem but that's just in my experience and someone else may have seen more motherboard problems :-) It does sound as if you have two faulty drives. Maybe switching the power off and on too quickly caused a spike that killed them. It shouldn't happen with any power supply but maybe a budget one couldn't cope with the frequent off and ons. If it's a quality supply that's done it I'd replace it as I would take that as a sign of future trouble looming. I'll have to start reconstructing my data from the time of my last backup. But now that I can comfortably use my pc, I've been able to start hunting down my notes about my hardware. Using a laptop just doesn't cut it when I've been accustomed to using a desktop with full-fledged keyboard. AFAICT - and I'm gun shy about digging into the physical eqpt atm to verify given how I mucked things up previously - the power supply is Antec's BP550 PLUS dating back to 2010. Who are considered the quality PSU manufacturers these days? I've started watching some of those advice/review videos on YouTube power supplies and terminology. EVGA gets plugged quite a bit as being high quality. Corsair was also cited as being a quality PSU brand. I expect I'll replace my existing PSU with another one somewhere around 550W to 600W. The PSU is located on the bottom in my case. I'm tempted to give more weight to a fully modular PSU, but don't have very strong opinions one way or another; being able to cut back on the number of wires inside the case is a bit appealing but doesn't strike me as a priority consideration when replacing the PSU I have. John |
#15
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Help - pc not turning on
Paul wrote:
rp wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2018 06:53:14 -0000 (UTC), Yes wrote: I followed your advice. I have four SATA devices - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. My pc would only recognize the CD/DVD player and one HD. Fortunately (???), that was my c: drive. I'll have to research if the data on the broken HDDs can be salvaged. I believe the SATA connectors on the mobo work. I plugged the SATA cable of the working HD into the various SATA connectors and confirmed that BIOS recognized it. I'm glad it helped. More often than not it's a drive problem but that's just in my experience and someone else may have seen more motherboard problems :-) It does sound as if you have two faulty drives. Maybe switching the power off and on too quickly caused a spike that killed them. It shouldn't happen with any power supply but maybe a budget one couldn't cope with the frequent off and ons. If it's a quality supply that's done it I'd replace it as I would take that as a sign of future trouble looming. You can actually burn the TVS diodes on a hard drive, if the power supply overvoltage lasts long enough. https://community.wd.com/t/hdd-tvs-diode-faq/14692 Unfortunately, modern hard drive circuit boards are turned component-side-in so you cannot see the diodes. Older drives, you could see the TVS diodes near the power inlet point on the drive. I didn't know these existed at first, until someone posted that they had a hard drive problem and "what are these two burned things". And that kicked off my first search for what those might be. The person who posted, came up with the theory, and I could find mention of those on the web. They exist to support hot plugging. Even IDE drives have been loaded into trays for hot insertion (with the right circuit design), and to protect the drive from power transients (inductive kick because hard drive motor +12V is still flowing), the TVS clips the tops off any inductive spikes. That's what it's supposed to do. If a power supply overvolts for a long period of time, those TVS burn. The TVS don't do well in the presence of a supply failure. ******* A power supply should not overvolt like that and I would replace it immediately. There is a certain model of Bestec supply which is famous for overvolting. It was used on Emachines. When the supply failed, it would destroy all the storage on the computer. That's because at least one rail would go too high. Things like the CPU and the RAM would be OK, because they're protected by onboard regulation. ******* The power supply has an "inrush limiter". http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html It's NTCR1 in the upper left corner. It needs to cool off, to return to a high-resistance state. The next time you turn on the supply (at the back), NTCR1 forms an RC circuit to limit the charging rate of the main caps (C5/C6). When NTCR1 warms up, it stays in a low resistance state (negative temperature coefficient). To treat that device well, if you turn off the supply at the back, wait at least 30 seconds before turning on again. That's to give NTCR1 a chance to cool off, and get ready for the next "inrush". The inrush current can be on the order of 40 amps, so it's no joke. (The value is printed in some spec sheets.) On modern supplies, some of them use the Active PFC circuit as an inrush limiter, so NTCR1 is no longer required. But that component has nothing to do with "overvolting behavior". And even if you kill the power at the back, the main caps (C5/C6) provide "hold-up time". You would have to hammer the switch on the back, as the rails were falling or something. You would need to be a "merciless switch puncher" to manage to damage stuff. Um, don't do that. One other dude already learned this lesson. He posted "I hit the switch on the back, like 50 times, and something blew". Yes, something can blow. Paul Atm, I'm leery of physically digging into my pc's innards given what I managed to do earlier, but I did find my notes. I'm reasonably sure that my PSU is an Antec BP550, and that I bought and started using it around June 2010 (nearly 8 years now). It's mounted in the bottom of the case. Who are considered quality manufacturers these days of power supplies? I've started watching some of the advice/review videos of power supplies on YouTube. EVGA is plugged a lot as is Corsair. John |
#16
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Help - pc not turning on
Yes wrote:
Paul wrote: rp wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2018 06:53:14 -0000 (UTC), Yes wrote: I followed your advice. I have four SATA devices - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. My pc would only recognize the CD/DVD player and one HD. Fortunately (???), that was my c: drive. I'll have to research if the data on the broken HDDs can be salvaged. I believe the SATA connectors on the mobo work. I plugged the SATA cable of the working HD into the various SATA connectors and confirmed that BIOS recognized it. I'm glad it helped. More often than not it's a drive problem but that's just in my experience and someone else may have seen more motherboard problems :-) It does sound as if you have two faulty drives. Maybe switching the power off and on too quickly caused a spike that killed them. It shouldn't happen with any power supply but maybe a budget one couldn't cope with the frequent off and ons. If it's a quality supply that's done it I'd replace it as I would take that as a sign of future trouble looming. You can actually burn the TVS diodes on a hard drive, if the power supply overvoltage lasts long enough. https://community.wd.com/t/hdd-tvs-diode-faq/14692 Unfortunately, modern hard drive circuit boards are turned component-side-in so you cannot see the diodes. Older drives, you could see the TVS diodes near the power inlet point on the drive. I didn't know these existed at first, until someone posted that they had a hard drive problem and "what are these two burned things". And that kicked off my first search for what those might be. The person who posted, came up with the theory, and I could find mention of those on the web. They exist to support hot plugging. Even IDE drives have been loaded into trays for hot insertion (with the right circuit design), and to protect the drive from power transients (inductive kick because hard drive motor +12V is still flowing), the TVS clips the tops off any inductive spikes. That's what it's supposed to do. If a power supply overvolts for a long period of time, those TVS burn. The TVS don't do well in the presence of a supply failure. ******* A power supply should not overvolt like that and I would replace it immediately. There is a certain model of Bestec supply which is famous for overvolting. It was used on Emachines. When the supply failed, it would destroy all the storage on the computer. That's because at least one rail would go too high. Things like the CPU and the RAM would be OK, because they're protected by onboard regulation. ******* The power supply has an "inrush limiter". http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html It's NTCR1 in the upper left corner. It needs to cool off, to return to a high-resistance state. The next time you turn on the supply (at the back), NTCR1 forms an RC circuit to limit the charging rate of the main caps (C5/C6). When NTCR1 warms up, it stays in a low resistance state (negative temperature coefficient). To treat that device well, if you turn off the supply at the back, wait at least 30 seconds before turning on again. That's to give NTCR1 a chance to cool off, and get ready for the next "inrush". The inrush current can be on the order of 40 amps, so it's no joke. (The value is printed in some spec sheets.) On modern supplies, some of them use the Active PFC circuit as an inrush limiter, so NTCR1 is no longer required. But that component has nothing to do with "overvolting behavior". And even if you kill the power at the back, the main caps (C5/C6) provide "hold-up time". You would have to hammer the switch on the back, as the rails were falling or something. You would need to be a "merciless switch puncher" to manage to damage stuff. Um, don't do that. One other dude already learned this lesson. He posted "I hit the switch on the back, like 50 times, and something blew". Yes, something can blow. Paul Atm, I'm leery of physically digging into my pc's innards given what I managed to do earlier, but I did find my notes. I'm reasonably sure that my PSU is an Antec BP550, and that I bought and started using it around June 2010 (nearly 8 years now). It's mounted in the bottom of the case. Who are considered quality manufacturers these days of power supplies? I've started watching some of the advice/review videos of power supplies on YouTube. EVGA is plugged a lot as is Corsair. John Jonnyguru.com has lots of power supply reviews. And that site owns an actual programmable load box for PSU testing. They can also tell, by examining the innards, which OEM made them. There are 491 power supply reviews here. http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...&recatnum= 13 The major sites also do PSU reviews, and some of those also have a proper power supply tester. They do "hot" and "cold" testing, where the "hot" testing verifies stability at high temperature. Maybe some PSUs can take 50C, whereas other cheap ones, are barely stable at 35C. There are disreputable sites, who accept a free PSU, tell you it looks pretty, shoot a few photos of the outside with a cell phone camera, and do absolutely nothing technical with the device. Just so they can get a free power supply for nothing. Then they'll rate it 5/5 or similar rubbish. For the really bad supplies, just the sheer number of bad reviews on Newegg should be enough evidence for those. I remember one USENET poster, who was proud of the $20 "deal" he got on a certain power supply. It would last for a few months, then blow up on him. He went through four supplies like that. When someone pointed out, that for 4 * $20 he could have had a quality $80 supply that would still be running, he just didn't get it. It was the thrill of getting a supply for $20 that he could not resist. When those blew, they didn't damage his gear. ******* Antec might have been made by ChannelWell (CWT) or Delta for the Earthwatts. I've had a couple ChannelWell ones fail here, from the Antec series. One had leaking caps on the secondary (5V unstable). One appeared to have some sort of switching flaw on the primary side, which caused excessive noise injection into the AC mains. That one used to knock my ADSL modem offline (clever). Paul |
#17
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Help - pc not turning on
On Fri, 11 May 2018 06:53:14 -0000 (UTC), "Yes"
wrote: - a CD/DVD player and three HDDs. I disconnected all of them. The pc booted up. After that, I re-connected each one individually. When all was said and done, one HD would always result in immediate shutdown. With another HD, the pc would boot up, but BIOS would not recognize that the HD was there. A bad HDD never results in a MB shutting down. A black or blank screen, a delayed BIOS fault post, but not a shut down. A bad HDD should also never be connected until, if possible, it's fixed, recognizable or replaced. There used to be factory LLF routines (Low Level Format), but you can download what the drive/model has from the manufacturer in the way of diagnostics and try to reinitialize it. A DOS FDISK command is another: used with the "hidden" switch: FDISK /MBR [reinitiates, clears and overwrites the Master Boot Record]. If the drive is trashed, however, trash is that last contingency everyone works with in varied plans for a backup scheme. To include throwing more money for yet more equipment into that great glory hole of our proclivity, amen. |
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