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UPS battery backup?
I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks. Talal Itani |
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UPS battery backup?
Talal Itani wrote:
I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks. Talal Itani This document discusses the various types. I own the type in Figure 1, which is an SPS or standby power system. It is not in the power path, as long as AC power is passing through the device. A relay is used, to flip to battery backup, and my SPS solves the problem of small power glitches on my AC power. So while an SPS is the cheapest kind you can find, it is really no better than a surge protector strip in the amount of protection it can provide against transients or brownout conditions (and at least I don't have brownout problems - I'm right next to the substation at the moment, and get a generous, full 120V, rather than the average 113V the utility tries to guarantee). http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/S...NM3Y_R5_EN.pdf This is an example of a Cadillac solution. It is a double conversion unit, which goes from AC-DC-AC. No transients should be able to leak through this unit (unless there is a direct lightning strike, and no matter what technology you use, a lightning strike can still damage things). Note that it comes with both a USB port and an RS232 port, and via those ports, the UPS can signal to the computer, for the computer to automatically shut down. That allows an orderly shutdown, and is a good idea to protect RAID arrays against file corruption (due to part of the files still being in cache). An orderly shutdown of Windows, means the caches are flushed to disk, before shutdown completes. TRIPP LITE SU1000XLA 1000 VA 800 Watts 8 Outlets Smart Online UPS $400 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842111063 The runtime of the SU1000XLA can be extended by connecting an extra battery. And higher capacity units are also available. The 1000 seems to be the smallest in the series. Example of battery pack to extend runtime (does not increase 800 Watt rating) The red and black lead, plug to the back of the SU1000XLA. http://www.provantage.com/tripp-lite...4~7TRPL1JC.htm There are other, cheaper types of UPSes, with compromises in the level of protection. HTH, Paul |
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UPS battery backup?
Talal Itani wrote:
I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks. All the UPS does is allow you time to shut down when the poser fails. Some will do this automatically. Then you have to worry about properly configuring restart. -- http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423 http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html "A man who is right every time is not likely to do very much." -- Francis Crick, co-discover of DNA "There is nothing more amazing than stupidity in action." -- Thomas Matthews -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#4
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UPS battery backup?
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:47:33 GMT, "Talal Itani"
wrote: I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks. Talal Itani Get a whole site surge protector and a line conditioner for the circuit between wall outlet and computer/connected peripherals. |
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UPS battery backup?
"kony" wrote in message ... On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:47:33 GMT, "Talal Itani" wrote: I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks. Talal Itani Get a whole site surge protector and a line conditioner for the circuit between wall outlet and computer/connected peripherals. Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line conditioner? |
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UPS battery backup?
On Apr 16, 2:20 am, "Talal Itani" wrote:
Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line conditioner? Power supply does the line conditioning. Conditioning is one of many functions inside a power supply that may be diminished when a power supply 'sells on the cheap'. For example this UPS has a clean AC sine wave when UPS connects computer power supply direct to AC mains. When in battery backup mode, this UPS output two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. Called a 120 volt modified sine wave; it is so 'dirty' as to damage some small electric motors. This modified sine wave is made completely irrelevant by 'line conditioning' inside computer power supplies. To supplement that line conditioning, try products from Surgex, Brickwall, or Zerosurge. If you want better line conditioning, then a better line conditioner costs more. Same circuit found in power strip protectors is also inside the UPS. Neither stops, blocks, nor absorbs surges. If located "before the power supply", then will it stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Surge protectors do not stop or block surges. Typically destructive type surges seek earth ground. Either surge finds earth, destructively, through any household appliance, OR is connected (shunted) to earth ground before surge can enter a building. Your choice. Do you shunt before a surge can enter the building, or shunt adjacent to one appliance where surge may find earth ground, destructively, via computer or anything else nearby. Your choice. How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. 'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by more responsible names such as GE, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, and Siemens. Some protectors are available even in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Just to attempt equivalent protection with plug-in protectors, spend maybe $2000 or $5000. Again, a protector shunts (connects, clamps, diverts, bonds) to what typically destructive surges seek: earth ground. Surge protection is earthing. A protector is not protection. An effective protector connects (shunts) a surge to earth in a path that is not destructive. Telcos, commercial radio and TV stations, military facilities, 911 emergency response centers, etc install 'whole house' (service entrance) protectors because they want to spend less money for real protection. That short connection to earth ground defines quality of protection. Separation between protector and electronics then increases transistor protection. Your building earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code. 'Whole house' protector then connects 'less than 10 feet' to earthing. Earthing connection must have no splices, no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, separated from other non-earthing wires, etc. Obviously a plug-in protectors violate all those earthing requirements. No wonder a plug-in solution hase no dedicated earthing wire and avoids all earthing discussions. Defined was a secondary protection 'system'. Each 'system' is defined by 'the' protection device: earthing electrode. Your primary protection 'system' should also be inspected: http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html Battery backup, line conditioning, and surge protection are separate functions best located at different locations. A good power supply provides line conditioning. Adjacent battery backup maintains power for data protection. Protector is best located where a surge can be earthed short via a non-destructive path; to protect all household electronics including electronics essential to human safety. Three different power problems solved in different locations. |
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UPS battery backup?
On Apr 16, 7:56 am, "w_tom" wrote:
On Apr 16, 2:20 am, "Talal Itani" wrote: Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line conditioner? Sam's club protector? Depends on ratings. Ratings range from junk to very high. Also depends on degree of risk. Thunderstorms often, lot of lightning? There are other surge sources, but lightning is the worst. Computer connection to phone-wire - is suppressor multiport (see below). The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at: http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf - the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf - this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001 Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background. The NIST guide is an easy read. Same circuit found in power strip protectors is also inside the UPS. Neither stops, blocks, nor absorbs surges. If located "before the power supply", then will it stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Surge protectors do not stop or block surges. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor. They do not work by stopping, blocking, absorbing. Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires needs to go through the suppressor. External connections, like phone, cable TV, also needs to go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and phone wires. These multiport suppressors are described in both the IEEE and NIST guides. According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires. A UPS may or may not have effective surge protection. Or a UPS can be plugged in to a plug-in suppressor. How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing. Since plug-in suppressors do not work by earthing he believes they cannot possibly work. But the IEEE guide explains they primarily work by CLAMPING, not earthing. The IEEE guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere in the electrical system. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. 'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by more responsible names such as GE, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, and Siemens. Some protectors are available even in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. About a week ago 2 people looked online and found: Lowes had NO 'whole house' suppressors. Home Depot had no 'whole house' suppressors near $50. The 2 suppressors available had no specs available from Home Depot or the manufacturer. w_ has provided no link to his $50 Lowes/Depot suppressor. Again, a protector shunts (connects, clamps, diverts, bonds) to what typically destructive surges seek: earth ground. Surge protection is earthing. A protector is not protection. An effective protector connects (shunts) a surge to earth in a path that is not destructive. The religious belief in earthing again. The IEEE guide says plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. Never seen - a link from w_ that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. -- bud-- |
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UPS battery backup?
"bud--" wrote in message ups.com... On Apr 16, 7:56 am, "w_tom" wrote: On Apr 16, 2:20 am, "Talal Itani" wrote: Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line conditioner? Sam's club protector? Depends on ratings. Ratings range from junk to very high. Also depends on degree of risk. Thunderstorms often, lot of lightning? There are other surge sources, but lightning is the worst. Computer connection to phone-wire - is suppressor multiport (see below). The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at: http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf - the title is "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf - this is the "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (the US government agency formerly called the National Bureau of Standards) in 2001 Both guides were intended for wide distribution to the general public to explain surges and how to protect against them. The IEEE guide was targeted at people who have some (not much) technical background. The NIST guide is an easy read. Same circuit found in power strip protectors is also inside the UPS. Neither stops, blocks, nor absorbs surges. If located "before the power supply", then will it stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Surge protectors do not stop or block surges. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by CLAMPING the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor. They do not work by stopping, blocking, absorbing. Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires needs to go through the suppressor. External connections, like phone, cable TV, also needs to go through the protector. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and phone wires. These multiport suppressors are described in both the IEEE and NIST guides. According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires. A UPS may or may not have effective surge protection. Or a UPS can be plugged in to a plug-in suppressor. How to identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not discuss earth ground. No earth ground means no effective protection. w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) in earthing. Since plug-in suppressors do not work by earthing he believes they cannot possibly work. But the IEEE guide explains they primarily work by CLAMPING, not earthing. The IEEE guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere in the electrical system. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. 'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by more responsible names such as GE, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, and Siemens. Some protectors are available even in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. About a week ago 2 people looked online and found: Lowes had NO 'whole house' suppressors. Home Depot had no 'whole house' suppressors near $50. The 2 suppressors available had no specs available from Home Depot or the manufacturer. w_ has provided no link to his $50 Lowes/Depot suppressor. Again, a protector shunts (connects, clamps, diverts, bonds) to what typically destructive surges seek: earth ground. Surge protection is earthing. A protector is not protection. An effective protector connects (shunts) a surge to earth in a path that is not destructive. The religious belief in earthing again. The IEEE guide says plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing. Both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective. Never seen - a link from w_ that say plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. -- bud-- Odd couple of posts there. Both have valid points IMHO. Lightning and other transient external surges are best clamped to ground/earth where they enter your system/home/local circuit. For the power line that is obviously where it enters and is fused. For a cable line, phone line, satellite coax, antenna line/coax, it should be accomplished just before entering the home as well, and there are "blocks" provided for that very purpose. (If possible you want all of these to connect to the same grounding point. You can also connect several grounding rods into a common pattern and make "common ground" connections through any of them.) The other point is that the ground provided within a modern three prong "grounded" receptacle/line is quite sufficient to handle, even very substantial, surges that originate within a protected system/home. (If your building conforms to current building/wiring codes, it will be so protected.) [ This just adds to the importance of properly grounding any lines you bring into your home, like a TV antenna/cable coax.] The Plug-in Surge Protectors and more sophisticated line conditioning devices normally have all the grounding they need through a grounded/3 wire power connection. Where they may need, or even be able to use, a more direct grounding path, it will be explicitly spelled out. (Such devices are designed for installation in an engineering closet, not the desktop.) So, it is a good idea to check your home's existing grounding, and a common/"whole house" surge protecting "breaker" may be worth while. You should also check that any other lines entering your home are properly grounded as well. But, if your home meets the common building codes, the plug-in protection devices are a valid and useful option/ additional protection. Luck; Ken |
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UPS battery backup?
On Apr 16, 9:00 pm, "Ken Maltby" wrote:
... So, it is a good idea to check your home's existing grounding, and a common/"whole house" surge protecting "breaker" may be worth while. You should also check that any other lines entering your home are properly grounded as well. But, if your home meets the common building codes, the plug-in protection devices are a valid and useful option/ additional protection. Wall receptacle ground is not earth ground. Specific references defined earthing: 'less than 10 foot' connection, no sharp bends, no splices, not bundled with other wires, etc. All necessary because surge currents are high frequency. For example, a 50 foot wire from wall receptacle to breaker box may be less than 0.2 ohms resistance. That same wire to a trivial 100 amp surge might be 130 ohms impedance. 130 ohms times 100 amps puts the wall receptacle ground as something less than 13,000 volts. Will all surge current take the 13,000 volts path to earth ground? Of course not. Wire too long, too many sharp bends, too many splices, .... Remember all those requirements? IOW excessive wire impedance. Surge may find other paths to earth such as destructively through an adjacent TV. Bud follows me everywhere to promote for the plug-in manufacturers. He hopes you don't read what his citation Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates a plug-in protector too far from earth ground and too close to TVs puts a TV at 8000 volts. Surge currents through an adjacent protector to earth ground take what path? An 8000 volt path, destructively, via the TV because a protector (using wall receptacle safety ground) is too far away from earth ground. Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates why high reliability facilities don't use grossly overpriced protectors. They need protection - as has been well proven for the past 100 years. Not just any connection to earth. A short connections to protection. As Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates, a protector is too far from earth ground. Therefore protector may earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances. Another of Bud's citations, an IEEE paper, even defined the problem in it conclusion: 1) ... objectionable difference in reference voltages ... occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances. Yes, a plug-in protector (costing tens of times more money per protected appliance), being too far from earth, may simply earth destructively via household appliances. Wire impedance is why a connection from protector to earth must be short (less than 10 feet) and why a wall receptacle safety (equipment) ground is not earth ground. Phone companies prefer that separation between protector and switching computer to be up to 50 meters. That separation contributes to protection. Earthing wire impedance so critical that even sharp wire bends can adversely affect protection. Ground wires from AC wall receptacles have far too many sharp bends. Meanwhile, what happens if a plug-in protector attempts to earth via safety ground wire. That ground wire is bundled with all other wires. A surge is now induces on all other wires. Just another reason why a plug-in protector is not effective. Again, what is required of that earthing connection? It must be separated from other non-earthing wires. Why? So that a surge on the earthing wire will not induce surges on all other wires. Just another reason why AC wall receptacle safety grounds will not act as earthing for surges. Each protector will only be as effective as its earth ground. A protector 'less than 10 foot' to earth can be extremely effective. The plug-in protector is so far from earth (via wires inside the wall) as to even earth a surge destructively through adjacent appliances - as demonstrated on Page 42 Figure 8. Industry professionals discuss wire impedance - not wire resistance. Things like long wires, sharp bends, etc increase impedance - adversely compromise connection to earth. 'Whole house' protector is effective because it has a short connection to earth. BTW it is not surge protecting breakers. A breaker would open circuit - try to stop a surge. Is that silly little breaker going to stop what three miles of sky could not? Of course not. Again, protector acts like a switch that closes. Meanwhile earthing only according to code is insufficient. As stated before, earthing must meet and exceed post 1990 code. That means 'less than 10 feet', separated from other non-earthing wires, no sharp bends, etc. A home that meets code still may not meet those requirements. For example, a breaker box earthing wire should not travel up over a foundation and then down to a ground rod. Too long. Too many sharp bends. Better protection means through a foundation and down to ground rods. Earthing - not the protector - defines protection. That shorter path with fewer 90 degree turns means enhanced protection - earthing that meets and *exceeds* code requirements. |
#10
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UPS battery backup?
On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 06:20:59 GMT, "Talal Itani"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 03:47:33 GMT, "Talal Itani" wrote: I would like to protect my PC against power problems. My power supply is an Antec and I have a surge protector before the power supply. Should I place a UPS battery backup? Are they other technologies on the market? I use my PC for business and I am trying to find ways to make it as fault tolerant as possible. I very much would like to know how you do things. Thanks. Talal Itani Get a whole site surge protector and a line conditioner for the circuit between wall outlet and computer/connected peripherals. Thank you very much. I bought a surge protector from Sam's club, about three years ago, for close to $30. Do you know if such low-cost surge protectors offer real protection? Also why do you think I need a line conditioner? The goal is not to buy a device then see what is needed next, it is to buy devices to methodically address the need. IF you are serious about protection, it would mean paying for the protective devices, not mere cheap devices that have the same word "protector" tacked onto them. That means you might as well throw away the Sam's club protector, it is not a serious protection. It can be better than nothing at some surges but that is not what you asked about. You do not define exactly what you want to protect against and the budget. These are always primary concerns. There is no perfect protection against every possible harm to your computer, only what you get for what you pay. The whole site protection is a low impedance path to ground from surges entering a location. It does not provide best protection against surges generated within that site, which are then handled by the line conditioner. This is not a school classroom, you asked about protection and it was answered. Either buy the devices or don't but do not ask us to spend lenghtly periods of time educating about it as that is what you could have already done with a basic Google search. This is not at all a new topic, power surges have been around for longer than there have been computers. |
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