Data recovery: am I getting scammed?

My wife's hard drive died over a month ago and she had crucial
information on it that wasn't backed-up properly (I know I know...) As
the lost of the data is not an option I looked into specialized data
recovery services to recover the data. After much deliberation, I
decided to go with a local company (I'm in Canada) as I prefered to
drop off the drive rather then ship it.

I feel I've been given the run-around and you can see below the latest
email I've received from them after I expressed my concerns. They have
already changed the heads but still haven't seemed to fix the problem.
I'm thinking of taking the drive back (in parts) and seeking help from
a more established data recovery experts but I'm afraid the drive will
be damaged beyond repair once I get it back and I'm sure another
recovery company will charge me a fortune if they can even recover the
data. Appreciate any advice you can provide Thanks!

Kraak
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Hello *****,

It's very difficult for us to explain anything to clients, as people
who are not in this business do not always know what may happen to the
hard drive and how difficult the process is. I will take my time now
and will try to explain and hopefully that will make things clear for
you.

I have no intention to mislead or misinform my clients. What we do is
critical not just for our clients, but for us as well. It's our
reputation and so far I had no single negative feedback from a single
client since the company was founded. When we get customer's data and
people tell us that they've got several years of pictures of their kids
- we take that personal and put ourselves in client's shoes. Data
recovery is a very complicated field and sometimes we go through a
nightmare to get the data even if it costs us more than we quote the
clients.

I have initially quoted you $1,2K including taxes. I however did not
mention about possible charge for parts. It was my honest mistake and I
bought parts at no additional cost to you. For the same work I would
charge clients a fee of way over $2500.
Anyways, here is the history (email extracts) of my updates:

1) Aug 18th
I kept my word and purchased parts for your drive without charging you
a week ago; however this drive needs more parts in order to do any
further recovery.

--- Parts were purchased. Right before shipping the drive to us, I was
told that some of the numbers were not matching, so I had to cancel the
order. I never buy parts that are approximate match as that can kill
the drive. I take my time and source the exact 100% match. Yes, it
takes longer, but that way I am more confident that what I do is
correct.

2) Aug 23rd
Just an update. I finally managed to find a donor drive. I'm buying two
of them just in case one wouldn't be fully compatible.

--- Yes, at this point I finally found the donor drive. Requested two,
just in case.

3) Aug 30th
We finally got the drive today. Took so long...
I'll be able to start working on it only on Friday, so I will let you
know the status as soon as I have any news.

--- Both drives arrived. One is a 100% match, the other one wasn't. So,
it was sent back. I ended up with one donor drive only.

4) Sept 1st
Everything looks fine; however the drive is still very slow. I have a
feeling that there is a thermal issue (cause of overheating) and the
disk platters are slowly loosing their magnetic properties.

--- Did a head replacement. Drive started to read well. After about
2-2.5 million sectors it started to slow down and started clicking
sometimes. That could be a thermal issue. As you can see from my email,
I said - "I have a feeling", meaning that I wasn't 100% sure. Serge, no
matter how experienced a person is, nobody lives inside of the hard
drive and nobody knows what exactly is happening there. All we can do
is _guess_ using our knowledge and experience. Thermal issue is a
number one cause of any hard drive failure, so by me stating that is
quite normal.

5) Sep 12th
No update yet. Got a donor drive, managed to read just a couple of
sectors and drive started to click again. We're trying to source
another parts drive. Will keep you updated.

---- I was still referring to the donor drive I mentioned on Sept 1st.
And as I said, the drive started clicking. I turned it off. Today
turned it on again and it started clicking on me, so I turned it off
and started looking for another donor drive. At that point, I sent you
an update email.
------------------------------------------

*****, as you can see, lots of things were going on and that is hidden
to clients. I can't afford to provide each client with such a
detailed feedback. I guess, there is not need either. It will make
people confused and angry, and we'll have to spend more time
explaining "why" and "who" than doing the actual work. I hope
you agree with me on that one.

Hard drive is a combination of electronics and mechanics. It fails. You
get the drive running, and the second later it start clicking just by
itself. Could be a firmware damage, electronics failed or mechanical
- heads crash. When you bring us drives, we check them out visually,
to make sure we don't turn them on if there is a head crash (to prevent
further damage). If all looks good, we proceed. If the drive is
reading, we start the process. While the process anything could happen.
The drive could actually die and be unrecoverable. It's not us who did
this. It's a hard drive. When you bring a drive to us (or to any other
place) you are bringing the drive that already has a problem, so you
can't really be surprised about my statement about your drive started
to click. The drive that comes to data recovery company has already
failed, so when do the recovery - we work with failed drives. These
drives are not stable and as I said, could die anytime. Once the drive
is accessible, we start making the image (#1 rule in data recovery).
After the image is done, we work with that image, so if we damage
something - we damage the image, not the client's drive.

*****, I don't want you to be suspicious. If you are not happy with us,
please come and collect your hard drive.

I don't always have to write such emails to my clients and prove my
work. Nobody knows how difficult the process it and what we go through
to get the data off the drive. If you are losing your confidence,
please let me know and I will have your hard drive ready for pick up. I
went through quite some difficulties locating donor drives for this
case while providing you with a low fee for this job.
Yes, it took so long to work with your drive, but it's not me who
delays the process. When you brought the drive to me, it was dead. I
spent quite some time and finally made it read, however it was reading
very slow. So, I dedicated a complete recovery system for you without
raising the cost. It's all hidden for you and no single client knows
all the hard work behind "data recovery". I could've told you that we
can't fix this drive, and at the same time I'd use that recovery system
for other clients and would make money. That's not my life style. When
I promise something - I do it. If I can't recover, at least I know I
did my best and I apologize.

I guess I explained enough. I will be out of town till Friday morning.
If you'd like to come and pick up the hard drive, please let me know.
Until then, I will postpone sourcing parts for your hard drive.

I am not an expert on this, but here is my take:

- The price is reasonable, including parts.
Take into account that an expert doing this takes something
like $200...$300 per hour. You don't get thet many hours for
what you pay. If you want the best poossible attention to
your drive from people that have the most experience,
the best equipment and reslly fast service, I would expect
a recovery fee $10.000 for your drive.

- The shop is a smaller one. Otherwise they would have
had the parts in stock. However a larger one may well
have been more expensive.

- The technical explanation seems sound to me.

Arno


Previously wrote:
My wife's hard drive died over a month ago and she had crucial
information on it that wasn't backed-up properly (I know I know...) As
the lost of the data is not an option I looked into specialized data
recovery services to recover the data. After much deliberation, I
decided to go with a local company (I'm in Canada) as I prefered to
drop off the drive rather then ship it.

I feel I've been given the run-around and you can see below the latest
email I've received from them after I expressed my concerns. They have
already changed the heads but still haven't seemed to fix the problem.
I'm thinking of taking the drive back (in parts) and seeking help from
a more established data recovery experts but I'm afraid the drive will
be damaged beyond repair once I get it back and I'm sure another
recovery company will charge me a fortune if they can even recover the
data. Appreciate any advice you can provide Thanks!

Kraak
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Hello *****,

It's very difficult for us to explain anything to clients, as people
who are not in this business do not always know what may happen to the
hard drive and how difficult the process is. I will take my time now
and will try to explain and hopefully that will make things clear for
you.

I have no intention to mislead or misinform my clients. What we do is
critical not just for our clients, but for us as well. It's our
reputation and so far I had no single negative feedback from a single
client since the company was founded. When we get customer's data and
people tell us that they've got several years of pictures of their kids
- we take that personal and put ourselves in client's shoes. Data
recovery is a very complicated field and sometimes we go through a
nightmare to get the data even if it costs us more than we quote the
clients.

I have initially quoted you $1,2K including taxes. I however did not
mention about possible charge for parts. It was my honest mistake and I
bought parts at no additional cost to you. For the same work I would
charge clients a fee of way over $2500.
Anyways, here is the history (email extracts) of my updates:

1) Aug 18th
I kept my word and purchased parts for your drive without charging you
a week ago; however this drive needs more parts in order to do any
further recovery.

--- Parts were purchased. Right before shipping the drive to us, I was
told that some of the numbers were not matching, so I had to cancel the
order. I never buy parts that are approximate match as that can kill
the drive. I take my time and source the exact 100% match. Yes, it
takes longer, but that way I am more confident that what I do is
correct.

2) Aug 23rd
Just an update. I finally managed to find a donor drive. I'm buying two
of them just in case one wouldn't be fully compatible.

--- Yes, at this point I finally found the donor drive. Requested two,
just in case.

3) Aug 30th
We finally got the drive today. Took so long...
I'll be able to start working on it only on Friday, so I will let you
know the status as soon as I have any news.

--- Both drives arrived. One is a 100% match, the other one wasn't. So,
it was sent back. I ended up with one donor drive only.

4) Sept 1st
Everything looks fine; however the drive is still very slow. I have a
feeling that there is a thermal issue (cause of overheating) and the
disk platters are slowly loosing their magnetic properties.

--- Did a head replacement. Drive started to read well. After about
2-2.5 million sectors it started to slow down and started clicking
sometimes. That could be a thermal issue. As you can see from my email,
I said - "I have a feeling", meaning that I wasn't 100% sure. Serge, no
matter how experienced a person is, nobody lives inside of the hard
drive and nobody knows what exactly is happening there. All we can do
is _guess_ using our knowledge and experience. Thermal issue is a
number one cause of any hard drive failure, so by me stating that is
quite normal.

5) Sep 12th
No update yet. Got a donor drive, managed to read just a couple of
sectors and drive started to click again. We're trying to source
another parts drive. Will keep you updated.

---- I was still referring to the donor drive I mentioned on Sept 1st.
And as I said, the drive started clicking. I turned it off. Today
turned it on again and it started clicking on me, so I turned it off
and started looking for another donor drive. At that point, I sent you
an update email.
------------------------------------------

*****, as you can see, lots of things were going on and that is hidden
to clients. I can't afford to provide each client with such a
detailed feedback. I guess, there is not need either. It will make
people confused and angry, and we'll have to spend more time
explaining "why" and "who" than doing the actual work. I hope
you agree with me on that one.

Hard drive is a combination of electronics and mechanics. It fails. You
get the drive running, and the second later it start clicking just by
itself. Could be a firmware damage, electronics failed or mechanical
- heads crash. When you bring us drives, we check them out visually,
to make sure we don't turn them on if there is a head crash (to prevent
further damage). If all looks good, we proceed. If the drive is
reading, we start the process. While the process anything could happen.
The drive could actually die and be unrecoverable. It's not us who did
this. It's a hard drive. When you bring a drive to us (or to any other
place) you are bringing the drive that already has a problem, so you
can't really be surprised about my statement about your drive started
to click. The drive that comes to data recovery company has already
failed, so when do the recovery - we work with failed drives. These
drives are not stable and as I said, could die anytime. Once the drive
is accessible, we start making the image (#1 rule in data recovery).
After the image is done, we work with that image, so if we damage
something - we damage the image, not the client's drive.

*****, I don't want you to be suspicious. If you are not happy with us,
please come and collect your hard drive.

I don't always have to write such emails to my clients and prove my
work. Nobody knows how difficult the process it and what we go through
to get the data off the drive. If you are losing your confidence,
please let me know and I will have your hard drive ready for pick up. I
went through quite some difficulties locating donor drives for this
case while providing you with a low fee for this job.
Yes, it took so long to work with your drive, but it's not me who
delays the process. When you brought the drive to me, it was dead. I
spent quite some time and finally made it read, however it was reading
very slow. So, I dedicated a complete recovery system for you without
raising the cost. It's all hidden for you and no single client knows
all the hard work behind "data recovery". I could've told you that we
can't fix this drive, and at the same time I'd use that recovery system
for other clients and would make money. That's not my life style. When
I promise something - I do it. If I can't recover, at least I know I
did my best and I apologize.

I guess I explained enough. I will be out of town till Friday morning.
If you'd like to come and pick up the hard drive, please let me know.
Until then, I will postpone sourcing parts for your hard drive.

"Arno Wagner" wrote in message
...
I am not an expert on this, but here is my take:

- The price is reasonable, including parts.
Take into account that an expert doing this takes something
like $200...$300 per hour. You don't get thet many hours for
what you pay. If you want the best poossible attention to
your drive from people that have the most experience,
the best equipment and reslly fast service, I would expect
a recovery fee $10.000 for your drive.

- The shop is a smaller one. Otherwise they would have
had the parts in stock. However a larger one may well
have been more expensive.

I agree the DR shop has provided a solid and extensive explanation of their
work.
But, AFAIK no DR company could stock enough hdd's for parts for any
possible failure.
I have waited over 2 weeks (no explanation) while one of the largest DR
providers located a parts hdd.
They were not successful with the DR on that occasion.

Dave

- The technical explanation seems sound to me.

Arno


Previously wrote:
My wife's hard drive died over a month ago and she had crucial
information on it that wasn't backed-up properly (I know I know...) As
the lost of the data is not an option I looked into specialized data
recovery services to recover the data. After much deliberation, I
decided to go with a local company (I'm in Canada) as I prefered to
drop off the drive rather then ship it.

I feel I've been given the run-around and you can see below the latest
email I've received from them after I expressed my concerns. They have
already changed the heads but still haven't seemed to fix the problem.
I'm thinking of taking the drive back (in parts) and seeking help from
a more established data recovery experts but I'm afraid the drive will
be damaged beyond repair once I get it back and I'm sure another
recovery company will charge me a fortune if they can even recover the
data. Appreciate any advice you can provide Thanks!

Kraak
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________

Hello *****,

It's very difficult for us to explain anything to clients, as people
who are not in this business do not always know what may happen to the
hard drive and how difficult the process is. I will take my time now
and will try to explain and hopefully that will make things clear for
you.

I have no intention to mislead or misinform my clients. What we do is
critical not just for our clients, but for us as well. It's our
reputation and so far I had no single negative feedback from a single
client since the company was founded. When we get customer's data and
people tell us that they've got several years of pictures of their kids
- we take that personal and put ourselves in client's shoes. Data
recovery is a very complicated field and sometimes we go through a
nightmare to get the data even if it costs us more than we quote the
clients.

I have initially quoted you $1,2K including taxes. I however did not
mention about possible charge for parts. It was my honest mistake and I
bought parts at no additional cost to you. For the same work I would
charge clients a fee of way over $2500.
Anyways, here is the history (email extracts) of my updates:

1) Aug 18th
I kept my word and purchased parts for your drive without charging you
a week ago; however this drive needs more parts in order to do any
further recovery.

--- Parts were purchased. Right before shipping the drive to us, I was
told that some of the numbers were not matching, so I had to cancel the
order. I never buy parts that are approximate match as that can kill
the drive. I take my time and source the exact 100% match. Yes, it
takes longer, but that way I am more confident that what I do is
correct.

2) Aug 23rd
Just an update. I finally managed to find a donor drive. I'm buying two
of them just in case one wouldn't be fully compatible.

--- Yes, at this point I finally found the donor drive. Requested two,
just in case.

3) Aug 30th
We finally got the drive today. Took so long...
I'll be able to start working on it only on Friday, so I will let you
know the status as soon as I have any news.

--- Both drives arrived. One is a 100% match, the other one wasn't. So,
it was sent back. I ended up with one donor drive only.

4) Sept 1st
Everything looks fine; however the drive is still very slow. I have a
feeling that there is a thermal issue (cause of overheating) and the
disk platters are slowly loosing their magnetic properties.

--- Did a head replacement. Drive started to read well. After about
2-2.5 million sectors it started to slow down and started clicking
sometimes. That could be a thermal issue. As you can see from my email,
I said - "I have a feeling", meaning that I wasn't 100% sure. Serge, no
matter how experienced a person is, nobody lives inside of the hard
drive and nobody knows what exactly is happening there. All we can do
is _guess_ using our knowledge and experience. Thermal issue is a
number one cause of any hard drive failure, so by me stating that is
quite normal.

5) Sep 12th
No update yet. Got a donor drive, managed to read just a couple of
sectors and drive started to click again. We're trying to source
another parts drive. Will keep you updated.

---- I was still referring to the donor drive I mentioned on Sept 1st.
And as I said, the drive started clicking. I turned it off. Today
turned it on again and it started clicking on me, so I turned it off
and started looking for another donor drive. At that point, I sent you
an update email.
------------------------------------------

*****, as you can see, lots of things were going on and that is hidden
to clients. I can't afford to provide each client with such a
detailed feedback. I guess, there is not need either. It will make
people confused and angry, and we'll have to spend more time
explaining "why" and "who" than doing the actual work. I hope
you agree with me on that one.

Hard drive is a combination of electronics and mechanics. It fails. You
get the drive running, and the second later it start clicking just by
itself. Could be a firmware damage, electronics failed or mechanical
- heads crash. When you bring us drives, we check them out visually,
to make sure we don't turn them on if there is a head crash (to prevent
further damage). If all looks good, we proceed. If the drive is
reading, we start the process. While the process anything could happen.
The drive could actually die and be unrecoverable. It's not us who did
this. It's a hard drive. When you bring a drive to us (or to any other
place) you are bringing the drive that already has a problem, so you
can't really be surprised about my statement about your drive started
to click. The drive that comes to data recovery company has already
failed, so when do the recovery - we work with failed drives. These
drives are not stable and as I said, could die anytime. Once the drive
is accessible, we start making the image (#1 rule in data recovery).
After the image is done, we work with that image, so if we damage
something - we damage the image, not the client's drive.

*****, I don't want you to be suspicious. If you are not happy with us,
please come and collect your hard drive.

I don't always have to write such emails to my clients and prove my
work. Nobody knows how difficult the process it and what we go through
to get the data off the drive. If you are losing your confidence,
please let me know and I will have your hard drive ready for pick up. I
went through quite some difficulties locating donor drives for this
case while providing you with a low fee for this job.
Yes, it took so long to work with your drive, but it's not me who
delays the process. When you brought the drive to me, it was dead. I
spent quite some time and finally made it read, however it was reading
very slow. So, I dedicated a complete recovery system for you without
raising the cost. It's all hidden for you and no single client knows
all the hard work behind "data recovery". I could've told you that we
can't fix this drive, and at the same time I'd use that recovery system
for other clients and would make money. That's not my life style. When
I promise something - I do it. If I can't recover, at least I know I
did my best and I apologize.

I guess I explained enough. I will be out of town till Friday morning.
If you'd like to come and pick up the hard drive, please let me know.
Until then, I will postpone sourcing parts for your hard drive.

Thanks you two for your input. I believe these guys are not trying to
scam me but are rather small and unprofessional and might have
chewed-off more than then they can handle. Some more information on the
drive

Drive:
- Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 120GB (6Y120P0032211)
- Was a data only drive, NTFS

Problem:
- Under XP the drive disappeared from "My Computer" and could not be
seen under "Manage" - "Disk Management"
- Drive was still seen by BIOS

My own recovery attempts:
- Various cloning attemps under Dos and Linux did not work.
- Ran Maxtor diagnostic tool, diagnostic code returned was: de946475
and said to contact Maxtor for RMA
- Ran Spinrite 6.0 but SMART repored "Imminent drive failure expected"
and therefore did not attempt to fix drive witn Spinrite.

Still not sure what I'll do as I'm afraid it might be returned in a
unrecoverable state. I haven't paid these guys anything yet and won't
unless they succeed in recovering the data. Guess I'm hoping for the
best but don't know how long I should wait.

Why does the data recovery company have to buy an identical HD? Why
can't they simply put the platters into a special machine that can read
them directly?

Previously larry moe 'n curly wrote:
Why does the data recovery company have to buy an identical HD? Why
can't they simply put the platters into a special machine that can read
them directly?

Because no such machine exists and if it did exist it would be extremely
expensive to develop and build or incredibly slow (magnetic microscopy)?

Arno

Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously larry moe 'n curly wrote:
Why does the data recovery company have to buy an identical HD? Why
can't they simply put the platters into a special machine that can read
them directly?

Because no such machine exists and if it did exist it would be extremely
expensive to develop and build or incredibly slow (magnetic microscopy)?

So what do companies like OnTrack and Seagate do to recover data from
drives that are wrecked except for the platters?

wrote in message ups.com

Thanks you two for your input.

One of them babblebot who reacts to everything and anything and the other
named ! 'HDTV' !.

I believe these guys are not trying to scam me

No?

"I have initially quoted you $1,2K including taxes. I however did not
mention about possible charge for parts. It was my honest mistake "

Honest mistake? Yeah right. Maybe, if he had forgotten the taxes too.

" and I bought parts at no additional cost to you. "

He is a regular Samaritan, isn't he.

" *For the same work I would charge clients a fee of _way over_ $2500.* "

So why did he quote $1,2K then when he normally never does that.
Parts don't cost $1500 or so.

Looks more like he wanted to hook you first and once he has done some work
on it you will feel obligated to pay him to resume the work.

but are rather small and unprofessional

Yes, as his chatty nature suggests.
Doesn't seem to know what he is doing either: Buying more 'parts' for trial and error.
Unless he knows what happened and doesn't want you to know as it probably would
upset you more (heads transplant ruined the media and heads) and instead prefers
to tell you stories about how unpredictable and unstable failed harddrives can be.

and might have chewed-off more than then they can handle.
Some more information on the drive:

Drive:
- Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 120GB (6Y120P0032211)
- Was a data only drive, NTFS

Problem:
- Under XP the drive disappeared from "My Computer" and could not be
seen under "Manage" - "Disk Management"
- Drive was still seen by BIOS

My own recovery attempts:
- Various cloning attemps under Dos and Linux did not work.
- Ran Maxtor diagnostic tool, diagnostic code returned was: de946475
and said to contact Maxtor for RMA
- Ran Spinrite 6.0 but SMART repored "Imminent drive failure expected"
and therefore did not attempt to fix drive witn Spinrite.

Still not sure what I'll do as I'm afraid it might be returned in an unrecoverable state.

Whatever you do, it may be too late already.
The last he said was that it was clicking and that he isn't doing anything until he hears
from you again. So yes, with heads replaced already and still not working -again- that
may well be the case. Probably nothing you can do about it either as the damage may
not be reversible, by anyone, using standard drive mechanics/electronics.

I haven't paid these guys anything yet and won't unless they succeed in recovering the data.

Which arrangement you hopefully have in black and white?
Otherwise he may keep it until you pay for the services already provided this far.

Guess I'm hoping for the best but don't know how long I should wait.

I think it has become a money issue now. He wants to buy new parts.
The open question appears to be who is going to pay for them.

Previously larry moe 'n curly wrote:

Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously larry moe 'n curly wrote:
Why does the data recovery company have to buy an identical HD? Why
can't they simply put the platters into a special machine that can read
them directly?

Because no such machine exists and if it did exist it would be extremely
expensive to develop and build or incredibly slow (magnetic microscopy)?

So what do companies like OnTrack and Seagate do to recover data from
drives that are wrecked except for the platters?

By moving the platters to a new drive.

Arno

Arno Wagner wrote:
Previously larry moe 'n curly wrote:

Why does the data recovery company have to buy an identical HD? Why
can't they simply put the platters into a special machine that can read
them directly?

Because no such machine exists and if it did exist it would be extremely
expensive to develop and build or incredibly slow (magnetic microscopy)?

So what do companies like OnTrack and Seagate do to recover data from
drives that are wrecked except for the platters?

By moving the platters to a new drive.

That's it? Don't they have a universal machine that spins the
platters, has several sets of heads to accommodate different track
widths, and uses a precision stepper to substitute for the servo (don't
factory servo writers use steppers?)? What do they do when the
customer has already removed the platters and messed up their alignment
with the servo platter?