Water Cooled Systems

Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled systems? Have
you had any major problems with the different systems? Do they work well
with Dell systems? Anything will really help. We are currently searching
for one and don't have any real experience with them.

Thanks,
Jeff

"Jeff" wrote in message...
Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled systems?

Probably not the sort of black/white answer you're looking for, no.

The real answer is that some water cooling systems are supremely effective
and superbly reliable, others are ****, in both respects. It is a general
truism that the more you pay, the better the bits you get, although there
are sufficient exceptions to warrant caution.

Have you had any major problems with the different systems?

The problem with any liquid cooling system, as compared with a simple air
cooler, is the extra complication, the increased number of failure modes,
the increased chance for user error to cause problems, and of course, the
presence of liquid in close proximity to sensitive electronic components,
and mains electricity.

If something leaks, you're probably in the ****. If the pump fails, you're
even deeper in the **** than you would be if the fan on a heatsink failed,
as at least with a heatsink you get a certain amount of convective cooling.
Don't get me wrong, you can (and I have) run watercooled servers 24/7
without any problems at all, but it would be a fallacy to suggest that these
things are a fit and forget solution in the way a conventional air cooler
is.

Do they work well with Dell systems?

Your question can be read a couple of different ways. First of all
watercooling components tend to be generic - they're not usually designed to
work with specific brands of PC. Secondly, as Dell PC's are built with
generic components, there's no reason to think a given cooling system would
work any better - or worse - with a Dell than it would with any other brand.

However, if you're asking whether there are any water cooling systems
designed for Dell PC's, or indeed the sort of customer who typically buys a
Dell, the answer is arguably no.

While there are a number of "all in one" solutions designed to take some of
the hassle out of choosing and fitting a liquid cooling system, these
products are, in general, still aimed at the enthusiast section of the
market, and will always be more complex than a simple heatsink-fan assembly,
especially for someone who just wants to use his/her PC without keeping a
regular eye on what is going on inside it.

As Dell PC's don't offer any overclockability, and tend to come with a
cooling system more than up to the job of removing heat from the supplied
CPU, there's no obvious reason why any extra heat removal capability would
be necessary. Thus, I'd tend to hold the view that if you don't *need* the
performance that a liquid cooling solution brings, you're better off
avoiding a load of complication you don't really need.

Anything will really help. We are currently searching for one and
don't have any real experience with them.

Serious question: Why are you looking for a water cooling system? If you own
a Dell, that means you don't overclock, and it also means your current
system will have been supplied with a thermal solution that is more than
capable of coping with the CPU the system was supplied with. On the face of
it there's no reason why you'd need/want to go liquid here.

If I'm missing something please don't hesitate to let us know, but if your
post reads the way it is written, you'd have to ask yourself if the expense,
extra complication and potential for failure is something you really want to
volunteer for.
--


Richard Hopkins
Cardiff, Wales, United Kingdom
(replace .nospam with .com in reply address)

The UK's leading technology reseller www.dabs.com
Get the most out of your digital photos www.dabsxpose.com

Richard Hopkins wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message...

Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled systems?


Probably not the sort of black/white answer you're looking for, no.

The real answer is that some water cooling systems are supremely
effective and superbly reliable, others are ****, in both respects. It
is a general truism that the more you pay, the better the bits you get,
although there are sufficient exceptions to warrant caution.

Have you had any major problems with the different systems?


The problem with any liquid cooling system, as compared with a simple
air cooler, is the extra complication, the increased number of failure
modes, the increased chance for user error to cause problems, and of
course, the presence of liquid in close proximity to sensitive
electronic components, and mains electricity.

If something leaks, you're probably in the ****. If the pump fails,
you're even deeper in the **** than you would be if the fan on a
heatsink failed, as at least with a heatsink you get a certain amount of
convective cooling. Don't get me wrong, you can (and I have) run
watercooled servers 24/7 without any problems at all, but it would be a
fallacy to suggest that these things are a fit and forget solution in
the way a conventional air cooler is.

Do they work well with Dell systems?


Your question can be read a couple of different ways. First of all
watercooling components tend to be generic - they're not usually
designed to work with specific brands of PC. Secondly, as Dell PC's are
built with generic components, there's no reason to think a given
cooling system would work any better - or worse - with a Dell than it
would with any other brand.

However, if you're asking whether there are any water cooling systems
designed for Dell PC's, or indeed the sort of customer who typically
buys a Dell, the answer is arguably no.

While there are a number of "all in one" solutions designed to take some
of the hassle out of choosing and fitting a liquid cooling system, these
products are, in general, still aimed at the enthusiast section of the
market, and will always be more complex than a simple heatsink-fan
assembly, especially for someone who just wants to use his/her PC
without keeping a regular eye on what is going on inside it.

As Dell PC's don't offer any overclockability, and tend to come with a
cooling system more than up to the job of removing heat from the
supplied CPU, there's no obvious reason why any extra heat removal
capability would be necessary. Thus, I'd tend to hold the view that if
you don't *need* the performance that a liquid cooling solution brings,
you're better off avoiding a load of complication you don't really need.

Anything will really help. We are currently searching for one and
don't have any real experience with them.


Serious question: Why are you looking for a water cooling system? If you
own a Dell, that means you don't overclock, and it also means your
current system will have been supplied with a thermal solution that is
more than capable of coping with the CPU the system was supplied with.
On the face of it there's no reason why you'd need/want to go liquid here.

If I'm missing something please don't hesitate to let us know, but if
your post reads the way it is written, you'd have to ask yourself if the
expense, extra complication and potential for failure is something you
really want to volunteer for.


Agreed... Not worth the trouble trying to modify or even attempt to
overclock a Dell system. They are made for what they do and nothing
else. Would be a good time to ask about water cooling, just before you
order and build your own custom home built computer system.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:22:03 GMT, Jeff wrote:

Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled systems?
Have
you had any major problems with the different systems? Do they work well
with Dell systems? Anything will really help. We are currently
searching
for one and don't have any real experience with them.

Thanks,
Jeff



If you're a bit handy, you can easy build one youreself as I did.
If you're intrested, mail me again ( mine costed about 20 US$)

Bonobo

--
DutchDareDevil

I bought the Koolance sometime ago now and once the coolant was getting low
I decided to try Water Wetter which after this it started leaking the
resivour don't know if this was my own fault or crap resivour but this is
the sort of things you have to worry about with water cooling.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:22:03 GMT, "Jeff" wrote:

:Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled systems? Have
:you had any major problems with the different systems? Do they work well
:with Dell systems? Anything will really help. We are currently searching
:for one and don't have any real experience with them.
:
:Thanks,
:Jeff
:

-----
Lee.

"Lee" wrote in message
news
I bought the Koolance sometime ago now and once the coolant was getting
low
I decided to try Water Wetter which after this it started leaking the
resivour don't know if this was my own fault or crap resivour but this
is
the sort of things you have to worry about with water cooling.


Crap reservoir or unlucky, any good water cooling system needs additives
to prevent corrosion, improve water contact and maybe alter the
viscosity a little.

My system has run for around 16 hours a day for about a year now with no
problems at all, I've topped up (50ml out of 1000ml) once in that time.

Use a good quality pump and it'll last for a few years, set the shutdown
temperature in the bios quite low and if the pump fails the system
should shutdown before any damage occurs.

hth

--
Apollo

Could you email me the basics of it. I don't really need it, but I
really enjoy building stuff like that. It's my main hobby... Just ask my
wife, I wired the blender to the computer, so I can mince, puree, and
liquify right from my desktop!! Damn rainy day projects LOL!!
Thanks!
Mail to m dot m dot tavares at sympatico dot ca

Bonobo wrote:
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:22:03 GMT, Jeff wrote:

Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled
systems? Have
you had any major problems with the different systems? Do they work well
with Dell systems? Anything will really help. We are currently
searching
for one and don't have any real experience with them.

Thanks,
Jeff



If you're a bit handy, you can easy build one youreself as I did.
If you're intrested, mail me again ( mine costed about 20 US$)

Bonobo

Add a little oatmeal.

--
Phil Weldon, pweldonatmindjumpdotcom
For communication,
replace "at" with the 'at sign'
replace "mindjump" with "mindspring."
replace "dot" with "."


"Lee" wrote in message
news
I bought the Koolance sometime ago now and once the coolant was getting
low
I decided to try Water Wetter which after this it started leaking the
resivour don't know if this was my own fault or crap resivour but this is
the sort of things you have to worry about with water cooling.

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:22:03 GMT, "Jeff" wrote:

:Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled systems?
Have
:you had any major problems with the different systems? Do they work
well
:with Dell systems? Anything will really help. We are currently
searching
:for one and don't have any real experience with them.
:
:Thanks,
:Jeff
:

-----
Lee.

That's the spirit, here's another recipy for a rainy weekend..

Ingredients:

1) fishtank pump (I bought one from Conrad.nl)
1) peace of filter stuff
1) big glas jar from pickels??
2) mtrs hose plus connection screws?
1) nice peace of used copper from the recycling belt (old electrical
highvoltage bar..)
1) from the car demolition dump take out an interior-heating waterblock
(search for oldest car they used brass or copper)
1) only little peace of copperplate ( leftover from a industry company)
1) about one liter enginecooling fluid.
1) small peace of copper/brass pipe o7mm??

To do:
-saw the right size that will fit on your CPU from the copper bar.
-drill a large size diameter "hole" right in the center BUT NOT TROUGH !!!
YUST DEEP ENOUGH
-drill a lane of medium "hole's" yust deep enough to transport the most
fluid, verry close to eachother to one and of the copperblock. THIS IS THE
INLET SIDE
-from the center go 2 ways out:the left side from center, ZIGZAG for the
longes lane !!
-than a lane to the rightside, same way, so you have 2 channels who will
meet together at the outside side of the bar(in one medium circle)
take away the copper between the drills(sounds easy but it is a %#$@#&%*
job.
solder (with flame from you gas stove??) two 3cm pipes on inlet/outlet
and the coperplate cover in one action.
Put copperblock on flat surface with "sandpaper??" and make it as flat as
possible using using different size sandstructure.
Check if its realy realy leak-free. Make hose holes in cpubox and fit
hose's.
Put pomp in classjar and close fluid circuit with interior radiator.
Circuit: from pomp to cpu-block to radiator(horizontal placed) to top of
jar. Top of jar must!! be little obove radiator, cpu block must be lowest
part.
Fill with fluid and start pump TOP UP WHEN POMP STARTS!!!
Meanwhile, rotate kopperblock onand on/left/right etc until all air is out
of water,
THAN AND ONLY THAN connect it tight! on the cpu with two selfmade "strips"
From know on the temp from my 1800+ HOT HEADED CPU!! and overclocked!!!
temperatuur stays at 45C.
Even when I load it to max and for some hours it only raises 2C!!! (for
11 mounths now 18hours a day)
For security: put cpu temp swith-off in bios only few grades C
higher(mine switch-off is at 50C)
(also connected 2nd block for my Graphics card parallel because it went
above 70C when playing awsome!! Battlefield 1942 game. this block stays at
30C and raise 2C under full Battlefield load)

Hope you will understand my "englisch" and have a lot of fun!!

Extra expensive luxery option: little multipurpose/voltage transformer and
a fan(because of transformer only runs verry slow and you won't hear
fan!!), and some cardboard for a chimny to place fan on. CPU temperature
drops about 10C !!!



On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:09:02 -0500, Browser Joe wrote:

Could you email me the basics of it. I don't really need it, but I
really enjoy building stuff like that. It's my main hobby... Just ask my
wife, I wired the blender to the computer, so I can mince, puree, and
liquify right from my desktop!! Damn rainy day projects LOL!!
Thanks!
Mail to m dot m dot tavares at sympatico dot ca

Bonobo wrote:
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:22:03 GMT, Jeff wrote:

Could anyone please tell the reliability of the water cooled
systems? Have
you had any major problems with the different systems? Do they work
well
with Dell systems? Anything will really help. We are currently
searching
for one and don't have any real experience with them.

Thanks,
Jeff


If you're a bit handy, you can easy build one youreself as I did.
If you're intrested, mail me again ( mine costed about 20 US$)
Bonobo




--
DutchDareDevil

Water wetter reduces surface tension (surfactant), whilst having
anti-corrosion additives and such I recall it isn't that great at stopping
green things growing in the cooling system. This could result in the
spread of bugs to the machine itself :-)

More seriously:
o Water cooling on a Dell is pointless as indicated
o Water cooling has a use if several machines re heat & noise relocation

Notice I say heat & noise relocation - it just moves it somewhere else.
o There are quiet air movement solutions for use within PCs
o A Dell has a reasonably good thermal system design from the factory

Some mid-range Dells use a cheaper JAC/JMC fan solution, better
higher-end Dells use quieter NMB fan solutions. The problem stems
partly from the fan quality, and secondly the fan specification chosen.
o The JAC/JMC solutions can be extremely high airflow
---- the temp v speed curve isn't adjusted to the fan their integrate
---- with the result that the machine in high ambient can be very noisy
---- a similar problem exists with some Apple G4s & other machines
o The NMB solution is actually of lower airflow & quieter bearings
---- the temp v speed curve is better suited to the fan they use
---- with the result that the machine in similar ambient is quieter

If you scream at Dell loud enough they should offer the NMB fan.

Water cooling does have some valid applications:
o If you have several PCs in a room, the heat input is very considerable
---- that is quite irrespective of the noise a number may make
o For 10x 1U Dual-CPU PCs it isn't inconceivable to suffer 3.5kW+
---- in a 28-33oC summer, even before room solar-gain, that is ugly
o Relocating that heat (& to some extent noise) is an ideal solution
---- colleague required just that for a 16x 1U solution at 5kW heat

Water cooling for overclocking has benefits - having displaced peltier
solutions in as much that it doesn't double the thermal load to remove.
You can use very large fans with modern heatsinks - eg, 120mm on a
CPU isn't impossible (and with Prescott it can be useful :-) so the use
of large fans with radiators is offset somewhat. That said, we still have
graphics card thermal output growth outpacing CPUs quite notably.

Present quiet graphics card solutions aren't that well thought out - the
space is limited, and many cards use low-profile fans which tend to
recirculate their own now heated air & so reduce cooling efficiency.
o Most CPU coolers can recirculate 40-70% of their own air
o Graphics card coolers can recirculate 60-80% of their own air

So getting heated air out of the case becomes more important - the CPU
& Graphics card do not see room-ambient, they see case-ambient. Dells
tend to use minimal heatsinks and a rear-mounted CPU fan with duct. So
if the machine runs hot (and it will with a hot graphics card) so that large
ducted fan will run somewhat high - depending on model, very noisily.

Some of the Dells use a single fan of 57-63dB(A) at maximum operating temp,
so keep those machines quiet requires careful choice of internal components,
or at least keeping the room ambient near the machine as low as possible.

Water cooling may eventually make a strong comeback for industrial use:
o Water cooling is unremarkable in high-end power supplies
---- it's usage is coping with thermal density, similar to Mainframe & hot CPUs
o ATX-blade servers offer a short-term thermal solution
---- blade-servers offer similar, but are proprietary locked-in solutions
o Several water cooled solutions are posed to coloco & rack infrastructure
---- slowly water is creeping closer to the CPU it seems
---- initially - local chilled-water air-drop outlets near rack-inlets
-------- this copes with the 42x 1U with dual-Xeon/Opteron thermal density problem
-------- underfloor ducted air-velocity is otherwise too high to guarantee rack temps
---- later - direct chilled-water to heat-exchanger within each rack itself
-------- this is getting cool air directly to the load
-------- and minimising the number of connections or service hassle re getting feet wet
:-)
---- eventually - Intel & others propose various chilled water backplane solutions
-------- few water connections again, but a copper backplane "bus" of chilled connector
-------- heatpipes on the CPUs pump heat to a copper connector on the rear of the case
-------- sliding the case into the rack also interfaces with the heat removal system

Cooligy have solutions posted at "direct" chip water cooling, beyond current heatpipes.

Thus water cooling is about heat removal - it still has to be got rid of somewhere else.
For racks the problem is servicing - racks comprise lots of computers which comprise
multiple
single points of failure, thus servicing is actually quite regularly required. Around
25-45% of
all servicing itself results in further downtime or servicing required to correct
errors - not that
uncommon for someone to unplug the wrong machine or take others down; human error. So
adding water solutions into the mix is something many will resist relatively strongly.

IBM posed a "water cooled data storage cube" some time ago, which could equally be
applied
to compute nodes frankly, since the density issue is beneficial although cost remains an
issue.
o The water cooling was more related to bulk heat disposal
---- using a chilled water plant which has high redundancy, often available at many IT
sites
o The real objective of the project was about data-management
---- removing data-management from teams of DP staff into smarter software which
self-managed


The trick with water cooling will be not getting feet wet.
o Water leakage in your bedroom PC is one thing
---- the epoxy will eventually not like being puddled in it, but PSU aside the voltages
are ELV
---- PCs will keep happily keep running, as both military & industry prove regularly
o Water leakage on a *suspended floor* is a different matter since it "has to go
somewhere"
---- Yes, contingency has long been worked out for that
---- However in multi-racks, multi-PCs you have risk-increase, revenue-density-increase
---- So an offlined rack due to water problem can take out several other machines - and
revenue
---- Particularly, you could have someone else's machine taking out your e-Commerce
server

So from a Service Level Agreement perspective the water solutions are "being tip-toed".

In some form they will come:
o Yes, Prescott cooks - but future Workstation CPUs will be based around P-M
architecture
---- that stops the CPU thermal arms race, but graphics cards will run unabated a bit
longer
o Server side cooks - and is likely to continue to do so
---- server CPUs are necessaily switching to sudden eco-low-power systems
---- compute power can mean revenue in many applications, and dbase have RAM/HD heat too
---- dual-core CPUs can off-load processing alternately to reduce the thermal-density
per time

For one thing, rack thermal outputs increasingly require suspended floor void airflow
that is not
easily solved (even with 48" underfloor voids) - or even practical in terms of air speed
required.
Many systems would require 60-80mph airspeed under voids and still have inconsistenct
rack
temp beyond the usual low/mid/top variation experienced. So water cooling isn't going
away.

For consumers, some graphics card cooling innovation would be welcome.
BTX isn't a great solution here - but it's a step in the right direction, albeit
somewhat less than
ideal for some of the very high thermal output graphics cards (if passive solutions are
posed).

Hard drives are progressing from 3.5" to 2.5" which will help thermal output somewhat,
with
15.3k-rpm 3.5" drives actually using 2.5" platters inside anyway. Laptops will move to
1.8".
So data-warehousing to the desktop PC will see other areas thermally improve over time.
Better modelling is already employed - modern Dells are well CFA/FEA thermal modelled
with
Flotherm and other 3D modelling s/w to better manage heat density, noise & retain
reliability.

Desktop P-M boards could expand beyond the industrial application area, which for SOHO
PCs & home servers may prove a seller - Athlon Mobile offers a lot of low noise/heat now
tho.
--
Dorothy Bradbury
www.dorothybradbury.co.uk for quiet Panaflo & NMB fans