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Asus Implementation of USB 3.1 and USB Type C Connection?



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 11th 15, 07:21 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Dan Schumacher[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Asus Implementation of USB 3.1 and USB Type C Connection?

Apparently, at CES 2015 MSI announced a Z97 motherboard with a
USB Type C connector and demonstrated an X99 motherboard that
implemented USB 3.1 through a Type A connector. The latter is
reportedly planned to be available in mid-February. Would anyone
care to venture an opinion as to when Asus might have an X99
offering with USB 3.1 and/or a Type C connection onboard? I was
just about to place an order for a bunch of components with
Amazon and Newegg, but am willing to wait as much as 6 months or
so for either of these capabilities to be available on something
equivalent to the X99 Deluxe or possibly the X99 Workstation.

Regards, Dan


  #2  
Old January 11th 15, 11:45 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Asus Implementation of USB 3.1 and USB Type C Connection?

Dan Schumacher wrote:
Apparently, at CES 2015 MSI announced a Z97 motherboard with a USB Type
C connector and demonstrated an X99 motherboard that implemented USB 3.1
through a Type A connector. The latter is reportedly planned to be
available in mid-February. Would anyone care to venture an opinion as
to when Asus might have an X99 offering with USB 3.1 and/or a Type C
connection onboard? I was just about to place an order for a bunch of
components with Amazon and Newegg, but am willing to wait as much as 6
months or so for either of these capabilities to be available on
something equivalent to the X99 Deluxe or possibly the X99 Workstation.

Regards, Dan


Z97 is volume and X99 is niche. Unless a competitor has the
resources to keep engineering new X99 designs with bells
and whistles on them, there's really no need to spin new ones.
So if MSI doesn't make a new ("cheapest") X99, Asus has no need
to counter their effort. They may already have their own "cheapest"
entry.

If you only sell 10,000 of a motherboard, maybe there isn't enough
profit to pay for the engineering team that built it.

When a new chipset comes out, that is an "impetus to enter the market".
You have to make something, for each new chipset. And that is an
opportunity to see what bells and whistles for Z97 sold well,
and then see whether the "workstation fraternity" would be interested.
Not every "silly feature", like remote control dongle for turning
a PC on and off, is needed in the workstation market. So not everything
invented to sell Z97, need migrate to the niche boards.

All of this behavior is controlled by economics (volume boards
pay the bills), as well as tightly defined marketing niches.
The motherboard makers are relatively conservative, risk wise.

You can also see the level of interest, by counting how many
BIOS releases a Z97 board gets, versus an X99. For Asus,
perhaps five BIOS releases is a minimum for them. A workstation
board may receive that few. The Z97 might receive a dozen BIOS
releases, many of which will include new CPU microcode for any
new CPU models introduced by Intel. The same level of interest
just doesn't exist for the low-volume boards. Looking at the
history of effort put into the different markets, should tell
you how the company will behave in future.

*******

The number of threads in the Asus forum for each board,
gives some idea of the interest level. Sometimes, there
aren't enough posts here to form an opinion on a motherboard
purchase, but you might still data mine enough info, to
help with purchase decisions. That, and Newegg or Amazon
customer reviews.

X99-Deluxe (76 discussion threads)
http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...Language=en-us

The forum is slow, so be patient. It took almost a minute before
the server responded today.

Paul
  #3  
Old January 12th 15, 07:33 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Dan Schumacher[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Asus Implementation of USB 3.1 and USB Type C Connection?


"Paul" wrote in message
...
Dan Schumacher wrote:
Apparently, at CES 2015 MSI announced a Z97 motherboard with a
USB Type C connector and demonstrated an X99 motherboard that
implemented USB 3.1 through a Type A connector. The latter is
reportedly planned to be available in mid-February. Would
anyone care to venture an opinion as to when Asus might have
an X99 offering with USB 3.1 and/or a Type C connection
onboard? I was just about to place an order for a bunch of
components with Amazon and Newegg, but am willing to wait as
much as 6 months or so for either of these capabilities to be
available on something equivalent to the X99 Deluxe or
possibly the X99 Workstation.

Regards, Dan


Z97 is volume and X99 is niche. Unless a competitor has the
resources to keep engineering new X99 designs with bells
and whistles on them, there's really no need to spin new ones.
So if MSI doesn't make a new ("cheapest") X99, Asus has no need
to counter their effort. They may already have their own
"cheapest"
entry.

If you only sell 10,000 of a motherboard, maybe there isn't
enough
profit to pay for the engineering team that built it.

When a new chipset comes out, that is an "impetus to enter the
market".
You have to make something, for each new chipset. And that is
an
opportunity to see what bells and whistles for Z97 sold well,
and then see whether the "workstation fraternity" would be
interested.
Not every "silly feature", like remote control dongle for
turning
a PC on and off, is needed in the workstation market. So not
everything
invented to sell Z97, need migrate to the niche boards.

All of this behavior is controlled by economics (volume boards
pay the bills), as well as tightly defined marketing niches.
The motherboard makers are relatively conservative, risk wise.

You can also see the level of interest, by counting how many
BIOS releases a Z97 board gets, versus an X99. For Asus,
perhaps five BIOS releases is a minimum for them. A workstation
board may receive that few. The Z97 might receive a dozen BIOS
releases, many of which will include new CPU microcode for any
new CPU models introduced by Intel. The same level of interest
just doesn't exist for the low-volume boards. Looking at the
history of effort put into the different markets, should tell
you how the company will behave in future.

*******

The number of threads in the Asus forum for each board,
gives some idea of the interest level. Sometimes, there
aren't enough posts here to form an opinion on a motherboard
purchase, but you might still data mine enough info, to
help with purchase decisions. That, and Newegg or Amazon
customer reviews.

X99-Deluxe (76 discussion threads)
http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...Language=en-us

The forum is slow, so be patient. It took almost a minute
before
the server responded today.

Paul


Paul,

Thanks for the reply.

I would not categorize the number of posts to the Asus Forums as
an indicator of which chipset is "volume" and which is "niche".
Given that Z97 chipset motherboards came out in May 2014 and X99
didn't come out until August 2014 (hope my dates are correct),
there is a natural delta in posting volumes. I look at X99
chipset motherboards, with their support for DDR4, Thunderbolt 2
Ready, and more cores per CPU, among other things, as the next
generation while the Z97 motherboards are the tail/end of the
previous DDR3 generation products.

Given that I recently turned 70, I am looking to build a new
system (to replace my old X58 P6T-Deluxe) that may last longer
than me. Something based on the latest and greatest standards is
where I am coming from, and the reason for my original query.
So, should I wait for Asus or go with an MSI board next month?

Regards, Dan

P.S. Thanks for the Forum link; for some reason my Favorites
links couldn't get there anymore even though I am registered.

  #4  
Old January 12th 15, 10:55 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Asus Implementation of USB 3.1 and USB Type C Connection?

Dan Schumacher wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Dan Schumacher wrote:
Apparently, at CES 2015 MSI announced a Z97 motherboard with a USB
Type C connector and demonstrated an X99 motherboard that implemented
USB 3.1 through a Type A connector. The latter is reportedly planned
to be available in mid-February. Would anyone care to venture an
opinion as to when Asus might have an X99 offering with USB 3.1
and/or a Type C connection onboard? I was just about to place an
order for a bunch of components with Amazon and Newegg, but am
willing to wait as much as 6 months or so for either of these
capabilities to be available on something equivalent to the X99
Deluxe or possibly the X99 Workstation.

Regards, Dan


Z97 is volume and X99 is niche. Unless a competitor has the
resources to keep engineering new X99 designs with bells
and whistles on them, there's really no need to spin new ones.
So if MSI doesn't make a new ("cheapest") X99, Asus has no need
to counter their effort. They may already have their own "cheapest"
entry.

If you only sell 10,000 of a motherboard, maybe there isn't enough
profit to pay for the engineering team that built it.

When a new chipset comes out, that is an "impetus to enter the market".
You have to make something, for each new chipset. And that is an
opportunity to see what bells and whistles for Z97 sold well,
and then see whether the "workstation fraternity" would be interested.
Not every "silly feature", like remote control dongle for turning
a PC on and off, is needed in the workstation market. So not everything
invented to sell Z97, need migrate to the niche boards.

All of this behavior is controlled by economics (volume boards
pay the bills), as well as tightly defined marketing niches.
The motherboard makers are relatively conservative, risk wise.

You can also see the level of interest, by counting how many
BIOS releases a Z97 board gets, versus an X99. For Asus,
perhaps five BIOS releases is a minimum for them. A workstation
board may receive that few. The Z97 might receive a dozen BIOS
releases, many of which will include new CPU microcode for any
new CPU models introduced by Intel. The same level of interest
just doesn't exist for the low-volume boards. Looking at the
history of effort put into the different markets, should tell
you how the company will behave in future.

*******

The number of threads in the Asus forum for each board,
gives some idea of the interest level. Sometimes, there
aren't enough posts here to form an opinion on a motherboard
purchase, but you might still data mine enough info, to
help with purchase decisions. That, and Newegg or Amazon
customer reviews.

X99-Deluxe (76 discussion threads)
http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...Language=en-us


The forum is slow, so be patient. It took almost a minute before
the server responded today.

Paul


Paul,

Thanks for the reply.

I would not categorize the number of posts to the Asus Forums as an
indicator of which chipset is "volume" and which is "niche". Given that
Z97 chipset motherboards came out in May 2014 and X99 didn't come out
until August 2014 (hope my dates are correct), there is a natural delta
in posting volumes. I look at X99 chipset motherboards, with their
support for DDR4, Thunderbolt 2 Ready, and more cores per CPU, among
other things, as the next generation while the Z97 motherboards are the
tail/end of the previous DDR3 generation products.

Given that I recently turned 70, I am looking to build a new system (to
replace my old X58 P6T-Deluxe) that may last longer than me. Something
based on the latest and greatest standards is where I am coming from,
and the reason for my original query. So, should I wait for Asus or go
with an MSI board next month?

Regards, Dan

P.S. Thanks for the Forum link; for some reason my Favorites links
couldn't get there anymore even though I am registered.


If there's a "signal" out there in the noise concerning propagation
of Type C and USB 3.1, I can't find it. It's "mid year 2015" introduction,
but exactly what will be available, the CES isn't showing a strong signal.

The fact that the MSI CES presentation covered up the USB 3.1 chip,
says the chip demonstrated is pre-release. The company making the
chip hasn't made it public. You can be assured though, that every
motherboard company has that pre-release USB 3.1 chip in their lab.
MSI doesn't have the only copy. The other companies are making sure
the pre-release chip isn't a dud. And they'll need USB 3.1 peripherals
(Interwork testing) to be absolutely sure. Looking at a logic
analyzer isn't enough.

You can count on both Intel and AMD to be slow on release of USB 3.1.
This tech doc comparison shows 3.1 introduces more than just PHY
changes, so it means messing with the logic block. Intel will take
their sweet time putting this inside the Southbridge. And AMD, their
last USB was done by buying third party IP (which is a clever way to
do it), but it will take time for a third party IP provider to write
and prove that code is correct. A typical way to do IP you can trust,
is if a company makes a USB 3.1 chip, then sells the IP block to
third parties for inclusion in their own designs. And that takes
time.

http://www.arrowdevices.com/blog/usb...al-comparison/

My guesses would be:

1) Expect to see more motherboards with Type C connectors by mid 2015.
It doesn't matter as much, what interface standard is connected to
the connector. USB 3.0 is good enough for this generation of Type C.
You want the Type C for interface flexibility - the ability to plug
in that type C when a type C to type C cable is all it came with.
That avoids using Type C to xxx adapter cables.

2) Don't expect really good USB 3.1 implementations at first. With some
luck, they'll write BIOS code so we can boot from the connector, but
that's not guaranteed. I have a motherboard here, where the UEFI BIOS
includes INT 0x13 support for a separate Asmedia chip, so it can be
done.

3) A USB 3.1 separate chip could be every bit as good as a Southbridge
implementation, *if* they put the right PCI Express interface on it.
If they use x1 lane Rev3, maybe that'll be a tight fit. Just as
x1 lane Rev2 for USB3 was a tight fit, and the Southbridge port
could do a better job.

I would say your first order of acquisition, would be anything that
can give you a Type C connector. Even if the implementation is USB 3.0
behind it. I don't see a pressing need for USB 3.1 silicon at this point.
It will take a while before peripherals catch up, and in terms of
applications, the only application for it would be a disk enclosure
with a SATA III SSD. And it'll only squeeze a bit more performance from
it. Peripheral makers could make a RAID 0 multi-SSD chassis to "stretch"
the interface. And I suppose eventually there could be USB3.1 to HDMI
or USB3.1 to some other video standard, uncompressed, to look forward
to. So there may be some reason to justify USB 3.1 as a "need". But
as of today, we aren't there yet. Would it be good if the motherboard
had it for sure ? Of course. But if you had a Type C with USB 3.0 on it,
that covers lots of practical situations. Is there a pressing need for
USB GPUs ? Not really. It is used occasionally on non-expandable
devices like laptops (to drive projectors perhaps), but a USB3.1
cabled display device could just as easily be surpassed by some flavor
of DisplayPort from a regular video card. Your desktop can have
cards fitted to cover new interfaces.

Now, if Asus were to spin such a motherboard for mid-year, would
they spin an entire wave of X99 boards with new connectors on the
back ? Or would it be one or two boards ? They may not cover
your needs with whatever they ship.

The price points of the LGA2011-V3 processors, one of them is only
28 lane PCI Express, while the more expensive ones are 40 lane
PCI Express. And since the stated objective of LGA2011-V3 is as
a "multi-card SLI video" implementation, the lane count is all-important
to that market. The 28 lane processor is an anomaly, situated between
the Z97 market and the X99. So even if you use a "cheap" X99 motherboard
and a "cheap" LGA2011-V3 processor, that doesn't align perfectly
with using lots of video cards. And perhaps that's what you'd need
to drive a 4K or 5K display properly at gaming rates.

Asus used to make a magazine (available as a PDF), with glossy
announcements in it. But I don't know if they bother with that
any more or not (the link below shows they stopped making PDF
magazines in 2007). And if they were going to announce something,
CES would be the opportunity for that. With the three boards
in a release cycle, if they were really ready for mid-summer
release, they should have had a prototype board for CES.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090208.../emagazine.htm

And something shown at CES, doesn't *have* to ship. If there are
problems with the thing, detected before launch, the board might
disappear from view.

Paul
  #5  
Old January 13th 15, 04:10 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus
Dan Schumacher[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4
Default Asus Implementation of USB 3.1 and USB Type C Connection?


"Paul" wrote in message
...
Dan Schumacher wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Dan Schumacher wrote:
Apparently, at CES 2015 MSI announced a Z97 motherboard with
a USB Type C connector and demonstrated an X99 motherboard
that implemented USB 3.1 through a Type A connector. The
latter is reportedly planned to be available in
mid-February. Would anyone care to venture an opinion as to
when Asus might have an X99 offering with USB 3.1 and/or a
Type C connection onboard? I was just about to place an
order for a bunch of components with Amazon and Newegg, but
am willing to wait as much as 6 months or so for either of
these capabilities to be available on something equivalent
to the X99 Deluxe or possibly the X99 Workstation.

Regards, Dan

Z97 is volume and X99 is niche. Unless a competitor has the
resources to keep engineering new X99 designs with bells
and whistles on them, there's really no need to spin new
ones.
So if MSI doesn't make a new ("cheapest") X99, Asus has no
need
to counter their effort. They may already have their own
"cheapest"
entry.

If you only sell 10,000 of a motherboard, maybe there isn't
enough
profit to pay for the engineering team that built it.

When a new chipset comes out, that is an "impetus to enter
the market".
You have to make something, for each new chipset. And that is
an
opportunity to see what bells and whistles for Z97 sold well,
and then see whether the "workstation fraternity" would be
interested.
Not every "silly feature", like remote control dongle for
turning
a PC on and off, is needed in the workstation market. So not
everything
invented to sell Z97, need migrate to the niche boards.

All of this behavior is controlled by economics (volume
boards
pay the bills), as well as tightly defined marketing niches.
The motherboard makers are relatively conservative, risk
wise.

You can also see the level of interest, by counting how many
BIOS releases a Z97 board gets, versus an X99. For Asus,
perhaps five BIOS releases is a minimum for them. A
workstation
board may receive that few. The Z97 might receive a dozen
BIOS
releases, many of which will include new CPU microcode for
any
new CPU models introduced by Intel. The same level of
interest
just doesn't exist for the low-volume boards. Looking at the
history of effort put into the different markets, should tell
you how the company will behave in future.

*******

The number of threads in the Asus forum for each board,
gives some idea of the interest level. Sometimes, there
aren't enough posts here to form an opinion on a motherboard
purchase, but you might still data mine enough info, to
help with purchase decisions. That, and Newegg or Amazon
customer reviews.

X99-Deluxe (76 discussion threads)
http://vip.asus.com/forum/topic.aspx...Language=en-us

The forum is slow, so be patient. It took almost a minute
before
the server responded today.

Paul


Paul,

Thanks for the reply.

I would not categorize the number of posts to the Asus Forums
as an indicator of which chipset is "volume" and which is
"niche". Given that Z97 chipset motherboards came out in May
2014 and X99 didn't come out until August 2014 (hope my dates
are correct), there is a natural delta in posting volumes. I
look at X99 chipset motherboards, with their support for DDR4,
Thunderbolt 2 Ready, and more cores per CPU, among other
things, as the next generation while the Z97 motherboards are
the tail/end of the previous DDR3 generation products.

Given that I recently turned 70, I am looking to build a new
system (to replace my old X58 P6T-Deluxe) that may last longer
than me. Something based on the latest and greatest standards
is where I am coming from, and the reason for my original
query. So, should I wait for Asus or go with an MSI board next
month?

Regards, Dan

P.S. Thanks for the Forum link; for some reason my Favorites
links couldn't get there anymore even though I am registered.


If there's a "signal" out there in the noise concerning
propagation
of Type C and USB 3.1, I can't find it. It's "mid year 2015"
introduction,
but exactly what will be available, the CES isn't showing a
strong signal.

The fact that the MSI CES presentation covered up the USB 3.1
chip,
says the chip demonstrated is pre-release. The company making
the
chip hasn't made it public. You can be assured though, that
every
motherboard company has that pre-release USB 3.1 chip in their
lab.
MSI doesn't have the only copy. The other companies are making
sure
the pre-release chip isn't a dud. And they'll need USB 3.1
peripherals
(Interwork testing) to be absolutely sure. Looking at a logic
analyzer isn't enough.

You can count on both Intel and AMD to be slow on release of
USB 3.1.
This tech doc comparison shows 3.1 introduces more than just
PHY
changes, so it means messing with the logic block. Intel will
take
their sweet time putting this inside the Southbridge. And AMD,
their
last USB was done by buying third party IP (which is a clever
way to
do it), but it will take time for a third party IP provider to
write
and prove that code is correct. A typical way to do IP you can
trust,
is if a company makes a USB 3.1 chip, then sells the IP block
to
third parties for inclusion in their own designs. And that
takes
time.

http://www.arrowdevices.com/blog/usb...al-comparison/

My guesses would be:

1) Expect to see more motherboards with Type C connectors by
mid 2015.
It doesn't matter as much, what interface standard is
connected to
the connector. USB 3.0 is good enough for this generation of
Type C.
You want the Type C for interface flexibility - the ability
to plug
in that type C when a type C to type C cable is all it came
with.
That avoids using Type C to xxx adapter cables.

2) Don't expect really good USB 3.1 implementations at first.
With some
luck, they'll write BIOS code so we can boot from the
connector, but
that's not guaranteed. I have a motherboard here, where the
UEFI BIOS
includes INT 0x13 support for a separate Asmedia chip, so it
can be
done.

3) A USB 3.1 separate chip could be every bit as good as a
Southbridge
implementation, *if* they put the right PCI Express
interface on it.
If they use x1 lane Rev3, maybe that'll be a tight fit. Just
as
x1 lane Rev2 for USB3 was a tight fit, and the Southbridge
port
could do a better job.

I would say your first order of acquisition, would be anything
that
can give you a Type C connector. Even if the implementation is
USB 3.0
behind it. I don't see a pressing need for USB 3.1 silicon at
this point.
It will take a while before peripherals catch up, and in terms
of
applications, the only application for it would be a disk
enclosure
with a SATA III SSD. And it'll only squeeze a bit more
performance from
it. Peripheral makers could make a RAID 0 multi-SSD chassis to
"stretch"
the interface. And I suppose eventually there could be USB3.1
to HDMI
or USB3.1 to some other video standard, uncompressed, to look
forward
to. So there may be some reason to justify USB 3.1 as a "need".
But
as of today, we aren't there yet. Would it be good if the
motherboard
had it for sure ? Of course. But if you had a Type C with USB
3.0 on it,
that covers lots of practical situations. Is there a pressing
need for
USB GPUs ? Not really. It is used occasionally on
non-expandable
devices like laptops (to drive projectors perhaps), but a
USB3.1
cabled display device could just as easily be surpassed by some
flavor
of DisplayPort from a regular video card. Your desktop can have
cards fitted to cover new interfaces.

Now, if Asus were to spin such a motherboard for mid-year,
would
they spin an entire wave of X99 boards with new connectors on
the
back ? Or would it be one or two boards ? They may not cover
your needs with whatever they ship.

The price points of the LGA2011-V3 processors, one of them is
only
28 lane PCI Express, while the more expensive ones are 40 lane
PCI Express. And since the stated objective of LGA2011-V3 is as
a "multi-card SLI video" implementation, the lane count is
all-important
to that market. The 28 lane processor is an anomaly, situated
between
the Z97 market and the X99. So even if you use a "cheap" X99
motherboard
and a "cheap" LGA2011-V3 processor, that doesn't align
perfectly
with using lots of video cards. And perhaps that's what you'd
need
to drive a 4K or 5K display properly at gaming rates.

Asus used to make a magazine (available as a PDF), with glossy
announcements in it. But I don't know if they bother with that
any more or not (the link below shows they stopped making PDF
magazines in 2007). And if they were going to announce
something,
CES would be the opportunity for that. With the three boards
in a release cycle, if they were really ready for mid-summer
release, they should have had a prototype board for CES.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090208.../emagazine.htm

And something shown at CES, doesn't *have* to ship. If there
are
problems with the thing, detected before launch, the board
might
disappear from view.

Paul


Paul,

Good thoughts. I would agree with you that the physical Type C
connector will probably come first because it is independent of
the USB version and for the reasons you lay out about Intel being
slow. I am sure that there will be a number of manufacturers
that will have add in USB 3.1 controller cards for a PCI-E slot.
My hope is that Asus soon provides the connector as a mod to the
X99 Deluxe board, or possibly as a feature on a new X99 board
(not sure how they would differentiate a new board from the four
they already have, but this is probably probably most likely).
If nothing meets my timeframes, I will just go the add-in
controller route when they become available.

Time will tell.

Regards, Dan

P.S. This is all a far cry from my first computer, a Zenith
Z-100 that had both 8085 and 8086 processors so it could run both
CPM and DOS.

 




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