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XP OEM - Interesting conversation with MS employee



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 11th 05, 02:53 AM
kurttrail
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Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
Bruce has "character" and is 100% honest!


This is like having OJ say that Tony Blake is "100% not guilty" too!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"


  #42  
Old May 11th 05, 03:00 AM
kurttrail
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Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to
determine what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away
with. Some of us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering
that additional MS documents call the Motherboard the defining
component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?

So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements,
you are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site
that I've already read concerning the definitions of terms before I
sign my OEM agreement?

Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound
by the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come
down off the soap-box.


If you aren't bound by it, then you really isn't worth the toilet
paper I used to wipe my ass with today!

And neither my used toilet paper or you non-binding web page has any
place in this thread!


It had as much place as a statement about a conversation with a
contractor that does PA without any real knowledge of licensing rules
or documents for the product they are activating.

I never claimed it was worth anything to anyone, it's just as good an
information source as you provide.


Since MS doesn't support OEM software and it is up to the OEM to support
MS software, it is only logical that it is up to the OEM to determine
when they'll stop support the software after upgrading the hardware.
Since I am my own OEM, my computer is never not my computer, no matter
how much I upgrade it.

I don't WANT OR NEED to have MS tell me what is right and wrong with my
copy of software on my hardware! They have absolutely no right to know
what I do in the privacy of MY home!


A lilly-livered sycophantic yes-man like you NEEDS some Authority-Figure
to tell you how to conform, and when to bend over and spread your
cheeks!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"


  #43  
Old May 11th 05, 03:03 AM
T. Waters
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Sorry, Bruce, for sounding insulting. In my mind, you sounded like some
orthodox practioners of religion I know.
I guess it is just a question of priorities. For me, it is infinitely more
important that people wash their hands after using the restroom than that
they abide by the OEM rules in the MS EULA., and I mean this seriously.

Bruce Chambers wrote:
T. Waters wrote:



Bruce your explanation of OEM support of Windows XP was very
enlightening You got to the actual point of limiting the OEM to the
first machine.



Thank you.


So I
found it odd that you summed up that brilliant and rational
explanation with a simplistic statement as to the morals of a person
who moves OEM XP to another computer.



What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the
OEM license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA, and then
subsequently reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license
elsewhere. This indicates quite clearly that this person's given
word, or signature on a contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted.
If he'll break the agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be
trusted not to break any other agreements.



Are you devoutly
religious, by any chance?




No. Why do you feel the need to be so gratuitously insulting? Every
religion I know of is the very anti-thesis of integrity - they're all
founded on self-delusion.




  #44  
Old May 11th 05, 03:24 AM
VWWall
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Bruce Chambers wrote:
Woody wrote:


from what Mike Brannigan , an MS employee and frequent poster , has been
saying of late is that it's up to the oem to determine when the original
machine is no longer the original machine . definately a major retreat
from
earlier interpretations of the ms oem eula .


No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated
by Microsoft employees, has always been.


If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has been
offering, can I change anything on the original computer on which I
installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in the
hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

--
Virg Wall

  #45  
Old May 11th 05, 03:37 AM
Bruce Chambers
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T. Waters wrote:
Sorry, Bruce, for sounding insulting.



Accepted.


In my mind, you sounded like some
orthodox practioners of religion I know.



For my clarification then, and so as to avoid such a misunderstanding
in the future, could you tell me just how I "sounded" hypocritical?
Surely the desire for integrity in one's business partners and other -
even social - associates isn't dependent upon superstition.


I guess it is just a question of priorities. For me, it is infinitely more
important that people wash their hands after using the restroom than that
they abide by the OEM rules in the MS EULA., and I mean this seriously.





Not to discount your perfectly valid concern for sanitation and
personal hygiene, does this mean that you don't care when people lie to
you or break their promises to you? Set aside the subject of a
Microsoft EULA - this comes down to basic honesty, period. It doesn't
matter to whom a promise is made, with whom an agreement or contract is
made, or what specifics the promise, agreement , or contract concerns.
A broken promise is a broken promise. I don't see how a person who
reneges on an agreement to anyone else - even an "anonymous" corporate
entity - can be trusted to keep one with me; the reneger (is that a
word?) has clearly and irrefutably demonstrated his untrustworthiness.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH
  #46  
Old May 11th 05, 03:37 AM
kony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
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On Wed, 11 May 2005 01:25:13 GMT, Leythos
wrote:

In article ,
says...
In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to determine
what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away with. Some of us
are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering that additional MS
documents call the Motherboard the defining component,


That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?


So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements, you
are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site that I've
already read concerning the definitions of terms before I sign my OEM
agreement?


No, why would you assime I'm saying that?

I'm saying those "documents on the OEM site that I've
already read... before I sign" are all there is. You cannot
have MS (nor youself) further elaborate them in scope or
terms after that contract is made.



Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound by
the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come down off
the soap-box.


What you wrote could be misconstrued. I clarified my
opinion on it, and what I believe to be the legality
involved as well. If the EULA doesn't specify
"motherboard", MS can't later come back and claim it does.
on the other hand, if the EULA claims use of one OEM system,
one can't replace it all and then claim it's the same one
OEM system either after all but a power cord has been
changed.
  #47  
Old May 11th 05, 03:45 AM
kony
external usenet poster
 
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Default

On Wed, 11 May 2005 01:22:22 GMT, Leythos
wrote:


I'm not taking sides, it seemed it would be good, legal or not, to get
an official MS stated position that could be references as FROM A MS
Legal department.


No more good than MS getting an official statement from your
"legal department". Believe it or not I'm not trying to be
mundane or argumentative here, it's simply that one CANNOT
refer to the other party in a contract for what THEY deem a
contact to "mean" after they wrote it and further that point
in time of sale has passed. Their interpretation of it
after the fact is no more valid than anyone else's,
specifically a court's if we want to nit-pick.



I actually don't care one way or the other if anyone does anything,
really, I don't care, I quit caring about 5 months ago. I also don't
make any attempt to sway anyone into thinking one way or another. I have
only mentioned what I've read on the MS site, seen in posted (web) MS
documents, and how I handle it myself.


I can appreciate that and I'm not necessarily trying to
convince you otherwise, but for the benefit of others it is
good to make it known that there is nothing that contacting
MS can do for them. What is not "clear" in a contact cannot
later be pointed out by one of the two parties involved and
be binding on the other.



Since I don't care how you handle it, or Kurt or Alias, and since I'm
only presenting that MS has documents that clarify their position on the
OEM site, there is no argument to be entered into - you can do what you
want.


I agree that in some circumstances those docs may cover
current licensing, when they're referred to in that license
agreement. I was never referred to those and I don't know
anyone who was when talking about single-OEM-system license.


  #48  
Old May 11th 05, 04:02 AM
kony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 10 May 2005 19:43:41 -0600, Bruce Chambers
wrote:


What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the
OEM license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA,


At this point you're making a giant leap.
How many people do you know that reviewed and accepted the
EULA before there was any penalty involved in declining it?

Is that EULA even stated on the outside of the packing?
Myself and many others are aware of the need to review these
EULAs, but the average OEM system purchaser- I highly doubt
they agree to anything ahead of purchase time, except to pay
X amount for Y system.

That's not necessarily pointing blame at MS, nor the
customer, rather there is not a standardized mechanism in
place for acceptance of softwrae EULAs and a decline of that
EULA before the customer enters into the sale agreement.
Only prior customers buying same thing a second time may be
fully aware of the EULA, IF they can assume it hasn't
changed.



and then
subsequently reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license
elsewhere.



I feel the average person does know this can't be done, that
their license is meant for one system only. They may not
realize it can't be transferred to another system though,
until they research it. This is part of the core problem,
that they weren't fully informed of this PRIOR to the sale.




This indicates quite clearly that this person's given word,
or signature on a contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted.


When did they give their word or sign the EULA?
I agree more than a little bit with your concept but in it's
application it's not a valid argument.

If
he'll break the agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be trusted not
to break any other agreements.


Nonsense.
Somewhere there's somone who doesn't like some particular
thing _you_ do, and could make similar excuse for hassling
you... and it's just an excuse, people are still innocent
until proven guilty, and guilty of only that which they've
done, not that which you "assume" they might do because you
argue it into being some "remotely similar" thing.


  #49  
Old May 11th 05, 04:23 AM
NoStop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

kurttrail wrote:

Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
Leythos wrote:
In article ,
says...
In the grand scheme of software licensing, it's up to you to
determine what is right/wrong and what you feel you can get away
with. Some of us are hard-line and purchase a OEM copy considering
that additional MS documents call the Motherboard the defining
component,

That's not "hard-line", that's ignorance.
If the license agreement that came with the product
specifies the motherboard, then it is (a) defining
component. It is improper and pointless to make any mention
at all of "additional MS documents". If those documents had
told you that you are bound to reformat your hard drive
every 7 days, would you do that too?

So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements,
you are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site
that I've already read concerning the definitions of terms before I
sign my OEM agreement?

Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound
by the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come
down off the soap-box.

If you aren't bound by it, then you really isn't worth the toilet
paper I used to wipe my ass with today!

And neither my used toilet paper or you non-binding web page has any
place in this thread!


It had as much place as a statement about a conversation with a
contractor that does PA without any real knowledge of licensing rules
or documents for the product they are activating.

I never claimed it was worth anything to anyone, it's just as good an
information source as you provide.


Since MS doesn't support OEM software and it is up to the OEM to support
MS software, it is only logical that it is up to the OEM to determine
when they'll stop support the software after upgrading the hardware.
Since I am my own OEM, my computer is never not my computer, no matter
how much I upgrade it.

I don't WANT OR NEED to have MS tell me what is right and wrong with my
copy of software on my hardware! They have absolutely no right to know
what I do in the privacy of MY home!

Yabut, remember when MickeyMouse made you agree to a new EULA when you
picked up a security patch? I don't imagine very many users read that sh*t
everytime a new patch or SP comes out, but be warned. It has happened and
will probably continue to happen. When MickeyMouse is finished with you,
you will have signed away ALL PRIVACY on your system to them. If you've got
your computer updated to the latest security patch, you've already given
MickeyMouse admin privileges to your box.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/06...ch_eula_gives/



--

ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°øø¤º°`°ø,¸¸ ,ø¤º°`°ø
Windows is *NOT* a virus. Viruses are small and efficient.
A brief overview of Windows' most serious design flaws
http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/...IhateMS_A.html

  #50  
Old May 11th 05, 04:33 AM
Michael C
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Bruce Chambers" wrote in message
...
What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the OEM
license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA, and then subsequently
reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license elsewhere. This
indicates quite clearly that this person's given word, or signature on a
contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted. If he'll break the
agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be trusted not to break any
other agreements.


People don't want that degree of honesty. Most would never hire a 100%
honest tax agent, lawer, employee, whatever. They want someone who can bend
the rules just enough.

Michael


 




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