Cost of DVD as data storage versus HDD (UK)

Bernard Peek wrote:

In my experience the main use for backup tapes is
to restore files that users have deleted. A RAID array doesn't protect
against that.

You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
overwritten (oldest first). There are programs for Windows that add
similar functionality I believe. Shouldn't be used to replace a backup
system (for several obvious reasons), but very handy.

Best wishes,
--
Michael Salem

In article ,=20
says...
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:44:20 +0100, mrlipring
wrote:
=20
In article , lid says...
On 13 Oct 2004, Major ChrisB wrote:
=20
What is the failure rate of your burns with these DVDs?
=20
If you have zero manufacturing defects and zero burn failures then it=
=20
is impressive. =20

Why so? You can get 4x ritek discs for =A320 for 100. You'd be hard push=
ed=20
to find better discs, imo. I used to be a verbatim man, but after=20
experiencing read errors on discs written only 2 or 3 years ago...
=20
You won't know if the Riteks suffer from this same problem for another
2 or 3 years, right? It's also important to remember that Verbatim
isn't a manufacturer, but a vendor. Verbatim-labeled discs are made
by whoever won the most recent contract (including Ritek).
=20
Ritek used to make awful CDRs - some of the worst available - but I
understand their quality is better on DVDs. Haven't tried them
myself, though.
=20
=20
--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
=20

well, i've got riteks that are a year or 2 old, and they're fine so far.=20
Time will tell.

I referred to verb discs, as verbatim were supposedly the kings of=20
quality, only choosing the best discs etc. Lifetime swap guarantees etc.

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Bernard Peek wrote:
In message , Arno Wagner
writes


Agreed - many people backup to DVD-RAM or HDs "incorrectly"
o They simply drag-n-drop files - directory is there, so it must be ok
o Better to use a proper backup tool - that actually does a proper compare
---- altho even XCOPY can be forced to do a verification as I recall
---- on DVD-RAM that might be an exercise in s-l-o-w-n-e-s-s however

Actually you should script this stuff. I am still surprised that MS
does not deliver a proper and easy to use backup tool with thir OS.

They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
completely undocumented.

The last word may be the key. That would be the missing "easy
to use". Anyway, I just observe this. I use Linux for all
my backups, including those of Windows installations. ;-)

Arno
--
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"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" - Tacitus

In message , Michael
Salem writes
Bernard Peek wrote:

In my experience the main use for backup tapes is
to restore files that users have deleted. A RAID array doesn't protect
against that.

You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
overwritten (oldest first). There are programs for Windows that add
similar functionality I believe. Shouldn't be used to replace a backup
system (for several obvious reasons), but very handy.

Undelete has been available since the days of MS-DOS but it does rely on
the space still being available and doesn't prioritise the use of
"empty" space. Thanks for the info on Netware though.

And yes, this ("shadow copies") is a new feature of the latest versions
of Microsoft software. As I understand it to be able to fully use the
feature you need to be running Office 2003 and store the data files on a
Windows 2003 server.



--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.

In message , Arno Wagner
writes


They do. If you understand how to write batch files you can use ntbackup
to do complex scripted backups. It's a very powerful tool but almost
completely undocumented.

The last word may be the key. That would be the missing "easy
to use". Anyway, I just observe this. I use Linux for all
my backups, including those of Windows installations. ;-)

ntbackup /? ntbackup.txt

Instant documentation. I know of a site that exists to provide
ultra-reliable offsite backup over the Internet. They do all of their
own backups using ntbackup and batch files. Once you understand the
command-line switches you can write batch files quite easily. There are
versions available that will backup Exchange Server and SQL Server
systems too.




--
Bernard Peek
London, UK. DBA, Manager, Trainer & Author. Will work for money.

I wrote:

You could run Netware as the network operating system, on a hard disc
with plenty of free space. All deleted files are salvageable until
overwritten (oldest first).
....

Bernard Peek wrote:

Undelete has been available since the days of MS-DOS but it does rely on
the space still being available and doesn't prioritise the use of
"empty" space. Thanks for the info on Netware though.

Not at all the same thing. Many's the time I have slaved to try to
recover a deleted MS-DOS file which had been stored on non-contiguous
disc sectors. The more advanced undelete systems such as Windows Recycle
bin would only store what had been deleted on purpose. But Netware would
store all files deleted in any way; for example. multiple copies of a
document being edited. No good for databases though, as the data files
are directly modified, rather than being backed up and replaced by a
newer version.

And yes, this ("shadow copies") is a new feature of the latest versions
of Microsoft software. As I understand it to be able to fully use the
feature you need to be running Office 2003 and store the data files on a
Windows 2003 server.

To be useful you need to store all files. I understand that programs
that provide the same functionality as Netware for Windows are
available.

Best wishes,
--
Michael Salem

I have used Nero to make a backup of drive C: to 19 DVDs . The messages were
all correct but I cannot restore now ,I have reinstalled windows XP home
but Nero wants a file that it did not write on the DVDs and if I try to do
it from the disk it starts a DOS prog then complains about the disk being
accessed directly and stops.

I thought I was using good software for the purpose it was meant for and I
would be able to restore. a lot of what is on there is un replaceable and
I thought I did the right thing by backing up . the Nero help files are
not much help.

what to do now?

Thanks for your help.

Gary

.. --------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...mindspring.com

( No Pipsqueaks have been able to prove ANY of the above is a LIBEL )
( -- despite Mikey claimed to have proof of misquotes !! )

Gary wrote:

I have used Nero to make a backup of drive C: to 19 DVDs . The messages were
all correct but I cannot restore now ,I have reinstalled windows XP home
but Nero wants a file that it did not write on the DVDs and if I try to do
it from the disk it starts a DOS prog then complains about the disk being
accessed directly and stops.

I thought I was using good software for the purpose it was meant for and I
would be able to restore. a lot of what is on there is un replaceable and
I thought I did the right thing by backing up . the Nero help files are
not much help.

13. How can I restore a partition or hard drive backup created with Nero
BackItUp?

http://www.nero.com/en/FAQs_Data_CD.html#13

Sure, a small company I know decided a raid array on their server
meant they didn't need to backup. The sever fell over one day and
trashed the whole array, they lost everything. Hard drives inside
an active machine are a very bad idea for long term backup.

I met a network manager in Indiana, US who fell for that one, and I
just know there are plenty more where he came from. :-/ RAID is good,
it's just no substitute for a proper backup strategy.

- Andy Ball

In article ,
lid says...
Personally I have seen Win2k trash a (cheap) stripped array because one of
the drives was a bit sticky on power up. The RAID BIOS didn't recognise the
set and w2k thought the remaining drive was corrupt and attempted to 'fix'
it on boot without any operator intervention.

Yeah, I've seen Win2k CHKDSK a drive (RAID5 array) into
oblivion... was rather entertaining in a very demented
sort of way.

Personally, I prefer a tiered system:

- RAID for the data and O/S drives (goal is keeping the
system running, even if a drive fails, one or more hot-
spare drives are required if you want minimum downtime)

- A large-capacity drive in the same or another server
that is used for quick-n-dirty mirroring and recovery of
deleted files, usually sync'd anywhere from once daily
to as often every few hours. Most tape backup software
now allows for "virtual tape" where you write to a hard
drive instead of a tape.

- Tape or removable drives for the daily backup,
tape/drive should go offsite at least weekly if not
daily.

- Optical for long-term archival if the data can be
managed in 4GB chunks. Otherwise, use tape for long-
term. Always make sure that a particular bit of data is
on at least 3 different pieces of media. (Generational
archives work well... if you can fit 6 months on a piece
of media, make one backup every month of all data
generated within the last 6 months. You'll have 5-6
tapes with the bit of data that you need to restore.)

IOW, don't put all your eggs in a single basket, and
always have a way to verify that the contents of backup
media are still unaltered (MD5/SHA/QuickPar PAR2 files).
Data is expensive, and backup hardware/software is like
buying an insurance policy for your house. Even $4k
tape drives start to look cheap when you consider the
price of the data.