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CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 11th 06, 10:06 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
Gerry_uk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

Hi,

When CD-RW drives first arrived on the scene it was suddenly possible to
drag and drop files from Windows Explorer onto the CD-RW drive and to
carry out operations similar to a Data Stick or floppy. You didn't have
to create a "CD Project" or "burn" the CD. To me, this was much more
interesting than using CD-R with Nero, but for some reason not many
people were interested. The power of drive letter access, is that you
can use APIs to work with your CD - e.g. you can create a batch file
with a few lines of code that will automatically back up your data (but
only the files that have changed since the last backup).

The first CD-RW drive I owned was a Philips CDD3610 2x, it came with
Adaptec Direct CD and I was running NT4 at the time. I used to do all my
backups to CD-RW in UDF format and everything worked perfectly. After I
moved on, the old Philips drive was put in my Dad's computer, and he
used it for YEARS with weekly backups, first with Win95, then with Win2k
- again not a single problem.

Around the same time I got rid of the Philips, I also got a Yamaha 8x,
4x, 8x drive for work and we were running NT4. I created a batch file
and the Admin staff had a button to press to do the backup. They used
this for YEARS, even after I left it was still working, and not a single
problem.

Shortly after this, I upgraded to a Plextor 12/10/32s and got the 10x
CD-RW media to go with it and also moved to Win2k with DirectCD (this
was around the time it became Roxio). I did all my backups to the new
10x media, everything seemed to be OK, but months later I was having
MAJOR problems with all my CD-RW disks. There was all kinds of confusion
in the newsgroups regarding the cause; bad media, "fixed packets", Roxio
incompetence, UDF is broken, Win2k incompatibility, etc. etc. The errors
I was seeing were both block level AND FileSystem level.

I later upgraded to Plextor 48/24/48, started with new 24 speed CD-RW
media, did all my backups, months later, more problems but not so many.

Up until this point Ahead's InCD was COMPLETELY broken.

Something else changed at this point - suddenly Mt Rainier (MRW) came on
the scene.

In some ways, the MRW spec is designed to deal with the POTENTIAL
shortcomings of "fixed packets"; as I understand it, fixed packets don't
have the same low-level error correction capabilities we see in Audio
CDs and Mt Rainier is supposed to address this. HOWEVER, I found MRW to
be completely impractical for day-day use. Every time you insert the
disk there's a massive delay as it's starts formatting and verifying.

I then got three Plextor Premium 52/24 drives, two at work, one at home,
and upgraded the firmware. I also noticed InCD suddenly works! I disable
MRW in both properties screens and set it to UDF 1.5

I then tried a lot of CD-RW UDF backups and data transfers, both at home
and at work. A year later, not a single problem. Even media that was
"bad" in the past is suddenly reliable.

I then tried Plextor P750A, and again everything is working perfectly
with CD-RW and UDF and I now want to try DVD-RAM.

So, I don't know for sure, but it looks like the major problems I was
seeing with CD-RW and UDF may have actually been related to the optical
drives themselves, as opposed to the software or media. Could it be the
drives of that era were just not very good?

--
Gerry_uk
  #2  
Old September 12th 06, 01:21 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
smh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 279
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

.. --------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk wrote:

So, I don't know for sure, but it looks like the major problems I was
seeing with CD-RW and UDF may have actually been related to the optical
drives themselves, as opposed to the software or media. Could it be the
drives of that era were just not very good?


Couldn't you make up your friggin mind?

=======================
From: Gerry_uk
Date: 5/20/03

Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****) crapped:

Fixed-length packets ... provide
the most fragile and least reliable format for writing to CD.


that's not the case with Packet Writing in general.

=======================
From: Gerry_uk
Date: 12/18/04
Subject: Fixed Packets?

The general consensus appears to be that fixed packet writing
is not very reliable.
=======================

Anyhow, according to the slimiest friggin SOB Mike Richter, the cause is
the "format":

------------------------------------------
UDF is a fragile format
UDF is an unreliable format

The format is bad - it loses data. That's not because of DCD,
the age of the recorder or the phase of the moon.

The format is fragile; the fault is not in the software per se.

The fault is not with the software but with the format

The issue is not the software but the format.

I do not recommend writing fixed-length packets because the format
is unreliable in practice. That has little to do with the software.

The faults of fixed-length packets are in the format,
not in the specific software which implements UDF.

the overwhelming majority of the complaints about any UDF software
are about the format, but the format is seen through the software
which gets the blame.

I have used only DCD for packet writing,
have had no problems due to the software
- but too many due to the format itself

to bother with it any longer.
------------------------------------------
..
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)
  #3  
Old September 12th 06, 05:07 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
Dave Cohen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

Gerry_uk wrote:
Hi,

When CD-RW drives first arrived on the scene it was suddenly possible to
drag and drop files from Windows Explorer onto the CD-RW drive and to
carry out operations similar to a Data Stick or floppy. You didn't have
to create a "CD Project" or "burn" the CD. To me, this was much more
interesting than using CD-R with Nero, but for some reason not many
people were interested. The power of drive letter access, is that you
can use APIs to work with your CD - e.g. you can create a batch file
with a few lines of code that will automatically back up your data (but
only the files that have changed since the last backup).

The first CD-RW drive I owned was a Philips CDD3610 2x, it came with
Adaptec Direct CD and I was running NT4 at the time. I used to do all my
backups to CD-RW in UDF format and everything worked perfectly. After I
moved on, the old Philips drive was put in my Dad's computer, and he
used it for YEARS with weekly backups, first with Win95, then with Win2k
- again not a single problem.

Around the same time I got rid of the Philips, I also got a Yamaha 8x,
4x, 8x drive for work and we were running NT4. I created a batch file
and the Admin staff had a button to press to do the backup. They used
this for YEARS, even after I left it was still working, and not a single
problem.

Shortly after this, I upgraded to a Plextor 12/10/32s and got the 10x
CD-RW media to go with it and also moved to Win2k with DirectCD (this
was around the time it became Roxio). I did all my backups to the new
10x media, everything seemed to be OK, but months later I was having
MAJOR problems with all my CD-RW disks. There was all kinds of confusion
in the newsgroups regarding the cause; bad media, "fixed packets", Roxio
incompetence, UDF is broken, Win2k incompatibility, etc. etc. The errors
I was seeing were both block level AND FileSystem level.

I later upgraded to Plextor 48/24/48, started with new 24 speed CD-RW
media, did all my backups, months later, more problems but not so many.

Up until this point Ahead's InCD was COMPLETELY broken.

Something else changed at this point - suddenly Mt Rainier (MRW) came on
the scene.

In some ways, the MRW spec is designed to deal with the POTENTIAL
shortcomings of "fixed packets"; as I understand it, fixed packets don't
have the same low-level error correction capabilities we see in Audio
CDs and Mt Rainier is supposed to address this. HOWEVER, I found MRW to
be completely impractical for day-day use. Every time you insert the
disk there's a massive delay as it's starts formatting and verifying.

I then got three Plextor Premium 52/24 drives, two at work, one at home,
and upgraded the firmware. I also noticed InCD suddenly works! I disable
MRW in both properties screens and set it to UDF 1.5

I then tried a lot of CD-RW UDF backups and data transfers, both at home
and at work. A year later, not a single problem. Even media that was
"bad" in the past is suddenly reliable.

I then tried Plextor P750A, and again everything is working perfectly
with CD-RW and UDF and I now want to try DVD-RAM.

So, I don't know for sure, but it looks like the major problems I was
seeing with CD-RW and UDF may have actually been related to the optical
drives themselves, as opposed to the software or media. Could it be the
drives of that era were just not very good?


I've never had much of a problem with udf either Roxio or now with DLA.
I had poor results with 24x rw media and don't use it. I also no longer
use dla very much, a flash drive is suitable for home differential data
backup and I master the full file backup. I use imaging for os backup.

One thing I've learned is to be selective about what one should read
(believe) in ng's, particularly this one. It's my belief that much of
the posting is a recycle of previous posts.
Dave Cohen
  #4  
Old September 12th 06, 09:00 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
smh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 279
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

.. --------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------

Dave Cohen wrote:

One thing I've learned is to be selective about what one should read
(believe) in ng's, particularly this one. It's my belief that much of
the posting is a recycle of previous posts.


Like this?

This stupid **** did not even realize IT was toyed with and taken for a
schmuch!

======================
From: Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****)
Date: 9/12/01

David Cohen wrote:
snip


From my own results and from numerous reports, it is clear that
erasables have increasing error rates over time.
======================

There was no way Mikey could have measured error rates in (9/01) when
Mikey did not even have a drive reporting C1 errors. Moreover, Mikey
does not even know what C1/C2 errors are.
..

=============================================
Mike Richter - The Slimiest Friggin SOB (UDF)
=============================================

The slimiest friggin SOB Mike Richter has been for YEARS
blaming the UDF to weasel out the bugs of DirectCD:

------------------------------------------
UDF is a fragile format
UDF is an unreliable format

the format is very fragile and unreliable
The format is bad - it loses data
The fault is not with the software but with the format

I have used only DCD for packet writing,
have had no problems due to the software
- but too many due to the format itself

to bother with it any longer.
------------------------------------------

But then again:

======================
From: Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****)
Date: 5/4/06
Subject: UDF Has just bit me in the bum

I have used UDF for many years, but yesterday I had my first
corruption. I am now wondering whether to bother with UDF


First, your problem is not with UDF
======================

-------------------------------
Wow! What a slimy friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)
  #5  
Old September 12th 06, 11:18 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
Gerry_uk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

Hi SMH,

I don't understand your comment about the "scam artist"? The part about
"not making up my mind", well I'm not omnipotent! It's a discussion, not
a dictatorship. Maybe you can enlighten us with the "truth" as you see
it as opposed to "who said what" in some dim and distant past?

smh wrote:
. --------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk wrote:
So, I don't know for sure, but it looks like the major problems I was
seeing with CD-RW and UDF may have actually been related to the optical
drives themselves, as opposed to the software or media. Could it be the
drives of that era were just not very good?


Couldn't you make up your friggin mind?

=======================
From: Gerry_uk
Date: 5/20/03

Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****) crapped:

Fixed-length packets ... provide
the most fragile and least reliable format for writing to CD.


that's not the case with Packet Writing in general.

=======================
From: Gerry_uk
Date: 12/18/04
Subject: Fixed Packets?

The general consensus appears to be that fixed packet writing
is not very reliable.
=======================

Anyhow, according to the slimiest friggin SOB Mike Richter, the cause is
the "format":

------------------------------------------
UDF is a fragile format
UDF is an unreliable format

The format is bad - it loses data. That's not because of DCD,
the age of the recorder or the phase of the moon.

The format is fragile; the fault is not in the software per se.

The fault is not with the software but with the format

The issue is not the software but the format.

I do not recommend writing fixed-length packets because the format
is unreliable in practice. That has little to do with the software.

The faults of fixed-length packets are in the format,
not in the specific software which implements UDF.

the overwhelming majority of the complaints about any UDF software
are about the format, but the format is seen through the software
which gets the blame.

I have used only DCD for packet writing,
have had no problems due to the software
- but too many due to the format itself

to bother with it any longer.
------------------------------------------
.
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)



--
Gerry_uk
  #6  
Old September 13th 06, 01:00 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
smh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 279
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

.. --------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk wrote:

Hi SMH,

I don't understand your comment about the "scam artist"? The part about
"not making up my mind", well I'm not omnipotent! It's a discussion, not
a dictatorship. Maybe you can enlighten us with the "truth" as you see
it as opposed to "who said what" in some dim and distant past?


Guess you don't remember I went through with you something in some dim
and distant past. Guess you don't remember because it happened in some
dim and distant past that's when you earned this:

--------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Anyhow, are these too complex for you to comprehend? Can't comprehend
because it happend in some dim and distant past? Didn't I even discuss
these with you in some dim and distant past?

------------------------------------------
UDF is a fragile format
UDF is an unreliable format

The format is bad - it loses data. That's not because of DCD,
the age of the recorder or the phase of the moon.

The format is fragile; the fault is not in the software per se.

The fault is not with the software but with the format

The issue is not the software but the format.

I do not recommend writing fixed-length packets because the format
is unreliable in practice. That has little to do with the software.

The faults of fixed-length packets are in the format,
not in the specific software which implements UDF.

the overwhelming majority of the complaints about any UDF software
are about the format, but the format is seen through the software
which gets the blame.

I have used only DCD for packet writing,
have had no problems due to the software
- but too many due to the format itself

to bother with it any longer.
------------------------------------------
..

-------------------------------
Wow! What a slimy friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)
  #7  
Old September 13th 06, 10:31 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
Gerry_uk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

Hi smh,

The long list of comments you posted about fixed packets and formats
were not made by me?

smh wrote:
. --------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk wrote:
Hi SMH,

I don't understand your comment about the "scam artist"? The part about
"not making up my mind", well I'm not omnipotent! It's a discussion, not
a dictatorship. Maybe you can enlighten us with the "truth" as you see
it as opposed to "who said what" in some dim and distant past?


Guess you don't remember I went through with you something in some dim
and distant past. Guess you don't remember because it happened in some
dim and distant past that's when you earned this:

--------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Anyhow, are these too complex for you to comprehend? Can't comprehend
because it happend in some dim and distant past? Didn't I even discuss
these with you in some dim and distant past?

------------------------------------------
UDF is a fragile format
UDF is an unreliable format

The format is bad - it loses data. That's not because of DCD,
the age of the recorder or the phase of the moon.

The format is fragile; the fault is not in the software per se.

The fault is not with the software but with the format

The issue is not the software but the format.

I do not recommend writing fixed-length packets because the format
is unreliable in practice. That has little to do with the software.

The faults of fixed-length packets are in the format,
not in the specific software which implements UDF.

the overwhelming majority of the complaints about any UDF software
are about the format, but the format is seen through the software
which gets the blame.

I have used only DCD for packet writing,
have had no problems due to the software
- but too many due to the format itself

to bother with it any longer.
------------------------------------------
.

-------------------------------
Wow! What a slimy friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)



--
Gerry_uk
  #8  
Old September 13th 06, 11:43 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
smh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 279
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

.. --------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk (Mikey S-Licker) slurped:

Hi smh,

The long list of comments you posted about fixed packets and formats
were not made by me?


Too thick to get a clue from this?

-------------------------------
Wow! What a slimy friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------


smh wrote:
Gerry_uk wrote:
Hi SMH,

I don't understand your comment about the "scam artist"? The part about
"not making up my mind", well I'm not omnipotent! It's a discussion, not
a dictatorship. Maybe you can enlighten us with the "truth" as you see
it as opposed to "who said what" in some dim and distant past?


Guess you don't remember I went through with you something in some dim
and distant past. Guess you don't remember because it happened in some
dim and distant past that's when you earned this:

--------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Anyhow, are these too complex for you to comprehend? Can't comprehend
because it happend in some dim and distant past? Didn't I even discuss
these with you in some dim and distant past?

------------------------------------------
UDF is a fragile format
UDF is an unreliable format

The format is bad - it loses data. That's not because of DCD,
the age of the recorder or the phase of the moon.

The format is fragile; the fault is not in the software per se.

The fault is not with the software but with the format

The issue is not the software but the format.

I do not recommend writing fixed-length packets because the format
is unreliable in practice. That has little to do with the software.

The faults of fixed-length packets are in the format,
not in the specific software which implements UDF.

the overwhelming majority of the complaints about any UDF software
are about the format, but the format is seen through the software
which gets the blame.

I have used only DCD for packet writing,
have had no problems due to the software
- but too many due to the format itself

to bother with it any longer.
------------------------------------------
.

-------------------------------
Wow! What a slimy friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)


--
Gerry_uk

  #9  
Old September 14th 06, 12:17 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
smh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 279
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

.. --------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk (Mikey S-Licker) slurped:

Hi SMH,

I don't understand your comment about the "scam artist"? The part about
"not making up my mind", well I'm not omnipotent! It's a discussion, not
a dictatorship. Maybe you can enlighten us with the "truth" as you see
it as opposed to "who said what" in some dim and distant past?


If you are so interested in finding out the "truth" about UDF/Fixed, why
didn't you ask Mikey what are the "problems" when Mikey crapped that on
you?

======================
From: Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****)
Date: 9/9/06

Gerry_uk wrote:


I've not used packets on DVD, so have no comment on whether
the problems of fixed-length packets on CD carry over.
======================
..

[BTW, is (9/9/06) some dim and distant past, Gerry?]

But I have been asking. Here's the third one:

================================================== ========
Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****) crapped (9/9/06):

I've not used packets on DVD, so have no comment on whether
the problems of fixed-length packets on CD carry over.


Is it now only "problems", not even "the most fragile and least reliable
format"? Is the word 'format' no longer in your vocabulary, Mikey?

================================================== ============
Mike Richter - The Slimiest Friggin SOB (udf/fixed)(pussyfoot)
================================================== ============

Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****) crapped (5/4/06):

I have used UDF for many years, but yesterday I had my first
corruption. I am now wondering whether to bother with UDF at all
.

.

First, your problem is not with UDF

Second, fixed-length packets are
the most fragile and least reliable format


(Do you dig the "format" out of your asshole, Mikey?)

Why are you pussyfooting around with "the least reliable", Mikey?
Is the word "unreliable" no longer in your vocabulary, Mikey?

======================
From: Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****)
Date: 4/9/01
Subject: Directcd/INCd Problems.

Fixed-length packets are notoriously unreliable
=====================

BTW, does "the least reliable" logically translate to "unreliable"?
..

----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)
  #10  
Old September 17th 06, 12:58 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.cdr
Gerry_uk
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 127
Default CD-RW UDF, "Fixed Packets" - the history and the future!

Hi smh,

You are not making much sense here? You are saying I'm a "scam artist"
but back it up with a bunch of mismatched, snipped-out text from Mike
Richter? Why don't you just post the exact full text of the post I made
that you decided was a "scam"?

smh wrote:
. --------------------------------------
Gerry Hickman, were you also born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
^
slightly
--------------------------------------

Gerry_uk (Mikey S-Licker) slurped:
Hi SMH,

I don't understand your comment about the "scam artist"? The part about
"not making up my mind", well I'm not omnipotent! It's a discussion, not
a dictatorship. Maybe you can enlighten us with the "truth" as you see
it as opposed to "who said what" in some dim and distant past?


If you are so interested in finding out the "truth" about UDF/Fixed, why
didn't you ask Mikey what are the "problems" when Mikey crapped that on
you?

======================
From: Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****)
Date: 9/9/06

Gerry_uk wrote:


I've not used packets on DVD, so have no comment on whether
the problems of fixed-length packets on CD carry over.
======================
.

[BTW, is (9/9/06) some dim and distant past, Gerry?]

But I have been asking. Here's the third one:

================================================== ========
Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****) crapped (9/9/06):
I've not used packets on DVD, so have no comment on whether
the problems of fixed-length packets on CD carry over.


Is it now only "problems", not even "the most fragile and least reliable
format"? Is the word 'format' no longer in your vocabulary, Mikey?

================================================== ============
Mike Richter - The Slimiest Friggin SOB (udf/fixed)(pussyfoot)
================================================== ============

Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****) crapped (5/4/06):
I have used UDF for many years, but yesterday I had my first
corruption. I am now wondering whether to bother with UDF at all
.

.

First, your problem is not with UDF
Second, fixed-length packets are
the most fragile and least reliable format


(Do you dig the "format" out of your asshole, Mikey?)

Why are you pussyfooting around with "the least reliable", Mikey?
Is the word "unreliable" no longer in your vocabulary, Mikey?

======================
From: Mike Richter (The Slimiest Friggin ****)
Date: 4/9/01
Subject: Directcd/INCd Problems.

Fixed-length packets are notoriously unreliable
=====================

BTW, does "the least reliable" logically translate to "unreliable"?
.

----------------------------------------
Mikey, you are The Slimiest Friggin SOB!
----------------------------------------
Mike Richter, were you born with
"Scam Artist" emblazoned on your face?
--------------------------------------
(Mike Richter, any Material Connection w/ Roxio?)



--
Gerry_uk
 




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