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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD



 
 
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  #31  
Old December 18th 18, 03:50 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
[email protected]
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Posts: 2
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:48:05 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie
wrote:

Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme
will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low.
It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot
from a DVD.


Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore
is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to
indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700,
but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the
heat under control.

Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then
entered a value of 1.1v.

The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done
that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the
optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted
perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD.
Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as
creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software
packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for
about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been
running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!]

What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ?

In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr...


I have a Asrock-Z170 Extreme6, when I do a bios update, the machine
boots to bios screen then powers down. It restarts in about 15 - 20
seconds and boots normally. What bios is the board booting from? There
is a led next to operational bios. Jumper setting wrong? Sorry if I'm
taking out of my ass...
  #32  
Old December 18th 18, 05:20 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Charlie
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Posts: 51
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD

On 12/18/2018 12:48 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie
wrote:

Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme
will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low.
It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot
from a DVD.


Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore
is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to
indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700,
but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the
heat under control.

Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then
entered a value of 1.1v.

The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done
that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the
optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted
perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD.
Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as
creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software
packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for
about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been
running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!]


I'm glad it helped.

What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ?


Vcore on mine is set to Auto which sets it at 1.216v. I have an I7
7700K 4.20GHz 4 cores.
I only got the reboot problem when I 'played' with the voltage, lowering
it to see how low it would go before it stopped working. If I recall
correctly it got down to just under 1 volt when it started rebooting.

In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr...


I still don't understand why it worked when booting from a DVD.

Charlie
  #33  
Old December 18th 18, 06:04 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
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Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:10:50 -0500, "SC Tom" wrote:

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
.. .

[lots of snipping to leave just the relevant part]
I
connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w),
The PSU is
connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v
connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains
unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine.



I may have missed it somewhere in this thread, but have you tried plugging
in the 4-pin ATX12v connector? Certainly wouldn't hurt anything if not
needed, and would eliminate one more thing. Just a thought :-)


I know I wrote a word wall to start things off, but I wanted to be
complete. You're forgiven for having missed it in that mess.

This motherboard has both the 4-pin ATX12v connector and the 8-pin
EPS12v connector. My PSUs (plural) both have the 4+4-style connector, so
I combined them to make the 8-pin EPS12v connection.

BTW, as of this morning the new system is still humming along. No
unplanned, unscheduled shutdowns and restarts after raising the vcore
voltage last night. The light that I see is either the end of the tunnel
or an oncoming train, but so far so good.

  #34  
Old December 18th 18, 06:11 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Paul[_28_]
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Posts: 1,467
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD

Bill wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:
Then another 30-40
attempts with the replacement board.


You've reminded me why I stay away from the bleeding edge, use quality
parts, etc. And still I've had a few "difficulties". IMO, Having to
mount a CPU just to flash the MB seems like an awful lot to ask... I
would expect a discount, maybe. Good luck!

Bill


The very best scheme, is there is a chip they can
attach to a USB port, that allows flashing from
a USB stick to the motherboard BIOS. You don't
even need a CPU in the socket, to flash up
the BIOS.

On my board it's called "USB BIOS Flashback".

https://event.asus.com/2012/mb/usb_b...ashback_guide/

It's probably a microcontroller of some kind, with
SPI bus capabilities. Something like that. It has
to be a microcontroller, because it's looking for
some specific file name on the USB stick FAT32.

And the way Asus works, is when they have an "exclusive feature"
like that, it only lasts in the product line for
a few years, before the luster wears off from
a marketing perspective, and it's removed.
Nothing last forever, when it comes to features.
Part of the attraction is "it's shiny".

Asus used to have the Winbond "Bitchin Betty",
AKA "Vocal POST" that used to give error messages
in unintelligible audio. That was likely two
chips for a buck a piece kind of thing. I thought
that would last, but they've stopped shipping that.
There are times that comes in handy, even if the
audio leaves a lot to be desired.

Paul
  #35  
Old December 18th 18, 06:13 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
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Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 07:22:47 -0500, Bill wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
Then another 30-40
attempts with the replacement board.


You've reminded me why I stay away from the bleeding edge, use
quality parts, etc.


I didn't think I was that close to any edge. The Z390 chipset is
basically last year's H370 chipset, so nothing radical there, and the
CPU is fairly high up the Intel food chain, but I intentionally waited
for the 9000-series to come out so that I'd be back one series. As for
ASRock and what seems to be a silly default voltage setting, I can't say
what happened there. You'd think this would affect a whole lot of
people, not just me.

And still I've had a few "difficulties".
IMO, Having to mount a CPU just to flash the MB seems like an
awful lot to ask... I would expect a discount, maybe. Good luck!


At least I was aware of the AMD situation, so I was aware of the easy
way to avoid the whole thing. All you have to do is shop for "Ryzen 2000
Series Ready", which weeds out the boards that would have to be flashed
with a loaner CPU. I almost went that way, with a Ryzen 2700X and X470
board, but at the last minute I came back to Intel for this build.

  #36  
Old December 18th 18, 06:22 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 09:50:44 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:48:05 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie
wrote:

Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme
will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low.
It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot
from a DVD.


Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore
is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to
indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700,
but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the
heat under control.

Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then
entered a value of 1.1v.

The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done
that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the
optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted
perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD.
Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as
creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software
packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for
about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been
running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!]

What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ?

In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr...


I have a Asrock-Z170 Extreme6, when I do a bios update, the machine
boots to bios screen then powers down. It restarts in about 15 - 20
seconds and boots normally. What bios is the board booting from? There
is a led next to operational bios. Jumper setting wrong? Sorry if I'm
taking out of my ass...


For the Z390 boards, ASRock does it a little differently now. The board
always boots from the A BIOS. There's no way to select the B BIOS at
all.

There's a set of rules governing the whole dual BIOS thing.

If the A BIOS fails its checksum and the B BIOS is still valid, B is
automatically copied to A and the system tries to boot from A.

When you do a BIOS upgrade or downgrade, (ASRock says both directions
are fully supported), you're always only affecting the A BIOS. I'm
unclear on the details, but either after the upgrade or after the first
boot/shutdown sequence, the system considers A to be valid and it
silently copies A to B.

The reason I think it involves a power cycle is that ASRock warns users
NOT to power down if a BIOS upgrade/downgrade fails. Instead, just leave
everything running and try again. They say if the A BIOS is corrupt and
you do a shutdown, the system is bricked and has to be sent in to be
reflashed.

Bottom line, there's no longer an LED to tell you which BIOS is active
because it's always BIOS A.

  #37  
Old December 18th 18, 06:28 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:20:15 -0500, Charlie
wrote:

On 12/18/2018 12:48 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie
wrote:

Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme
will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low.
It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot
from a DVD.


Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore
is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to
indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700,
but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the
heat under control.

Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then
entered a value of 1.1v.

The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done
that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the
optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted
perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD.
Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as
creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software
packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for
about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been
running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!]


I'm glad it helped.

What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ?


Vcore on mine is set to Auto which sets it at 1.216v. I have an I7
7700K 4.20GHz 4 cores.
I only got the reboot problem when I 'played' with the voltage, lowering
it to see how low it would go before it stopped working. If I recall
correctly it got down to just under 1 volt when it started rebooting.

In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr...


I still don't understand why it worked when booting from a DVD.


Paul offered the theory that when I was attempting to boot from the HDD,
the power draw was higher than when I was booting from the DVD. Only
marginal, perhaps, but enough to tip things over.

I'll do additional research today to see what's considered optimal for
the i7-8700 (non-K version), then manually set it. It's currently 1.1v,
but I won't be surprised if the consensus says to use something closer
to what you're using, say 1.20 to 1.25v.

  #38  
Old December 18th 18, 06:43 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 1,453
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

Char Jackson wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:17:48 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

Hmm, I started wondering about UEFI which, I believe, is used by your
mobo. I haven't delved into that.

When you boot using the USB thumb drive, I'm not sure how UEFI is
involved. When booting from a SSD or HDD, UEFI is involved. The whole
UEFI scheme was Microsoft wanting to lockdown an installation of their
Windows product. It seems to irritate Linux users because of the
SecureBoot protection.

Can you find a SecureBoot option in the BIOS and see what happens when
you disable it?

https://www.avira.com/en/support-for...tail/kbid/1811
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ng-secure-boot

You'd think they have the firmware issue some bitch message that your OS
wasn't properly signed but knowing Microsoft they might've convinced the
BIOS makers to just immediately shutdown without a clue to the user.


The SecureBoot option comes disabled by default. I did go looking for it
to make sure, but I didn't need to disable it.

Charlie suggested checking the vcore voltage, which might have been too
low. I bumped it from 0.971v to 1.1v and I'm testing it now. The system
booted from the HDD for the first time and has been running now for
about 45 minutes. I'm optimistic.


I was looking through the data spec sheet at:

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...heet-vol-1.pdf

to see what was the recommended normal operating voltage for Vcore or
Vcc. It says 1.52V maximum. Minimum is 0V (zero). Well, yeah, that
means unpowered. But you'd think they would list a recommended, normal,
typical, or optimal voltage.

Apparently there is some ambiguity regarding what is getting measured.
CPU-z looks to report Vcc but some users are saying the BIOS is report
VID. VID is the nominal voltage assigned to the cores in the BIOS where
Vcore/Vcc is the resulting voltage on the cores after regulation of VID.
If the BIOS uses the programmed voltages vs frequency coded in the CPU
at manufacture time, it uses VID when using the preset values or use
Vcore if you alter to a different voltage than VID.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13468...aichi-review/3

That shows screen captures of the BIOS screens. Ugh, what a bunch of
noise in the UI. Lots of fluff instead of just grouped text of black
text on a white background. The OC Tweaker tab panel seems to be where
you set the voltage but their pic obliterated the CPU Core voltage
setting with them showing the popup dialog for selecting voltage mode.
With some BIOSes showing VID instead of Vcc, I'm not sure if "CPU
Core/Cache Voltage" is showing VID or Vcc.

According to the above data sheet:

Each processor is programmed with a maximum valid voltage identification
value (VID) that is set at manufacturing and cannot be altered.
Individual maximum VID values are calibrated during manufacturing such
that two processors at the same frequency may have different settings
within the VID range.

Okay, so I guess VID is something that is query-able so the BIOS knows
what voltage to use by default. If the BIOS was not configured for
overclocking, the expectation is that CPU is operable at the VID it
reports to the BIOS. At different frequencies, the CPU is programmed
for a different VID. I suppose the data sheet indicates the variance in
Vcc based on clock frequency but I got lost in that document. Since
you're not overriding the default settings with overclocking, the
expection is the programmed VID is what the CPU should work with.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-in...t-cpu-vid.html

That has some overclockers discussing VID and Vcore. I have to wonder
why the CPU has a failure when it is running at it programmed
non-overclocked (non-adjusted VID) values that it says it should work
at. Makes me wonder if there's a failing in the CPU or in the
regulation on the mobo to the CPU (BIOS specifies the VID but the CPU
doesn't get the expect Vdrop to have adequate Vcore).
  #39  
Old December 18th 18, 11:04 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:43:52 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

I was looking through the data spec sheet at:

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...heet-vol-1.pdf

to see what was the recommended normal operating voltage for Vcore or
Vcc. It says 1.52V maximum. Minimum is 0V (zero). Well, yeah, that
means unpowered. But you'd think they would list a recommended, normal,
typical, or optimal voltage.


At 1.1v, I guess I'm within that range. But yeah, why not just come
out with a recommended operating range so that a person would have a
starting point.

Apparently there is some ambiguity regarding what is getting measured.
CPU-z looks to report Vcc but some users are saying the BIOS is report
VID. VID is the nominal voltage assigned to the cores in the BIOS where
Vcore/Vcc is the resulting voltage on the cores after regulation of VID.
If the BIOS uses the programmed voltages vs frequency coded in the CPU
at manufacture time, it uses VID when using the preset values or use
Vcore if you alter to a different voltage than VID.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13468...aichi-review/3

That shows screen captures of the BIOS screens. Ugh, what a bunch of
noise in the UI. Lots of fluff instead of just grouped text of black
text on a white background. The OC Tweaker tab panel seems to be where
you set the voltage but their pic obliterated the CPU Core voltage
setting with them showing the popup dialog for selecting voltage mode.
With some BIOSes showing VID instead of Vcc, I'm not sure if "CPU
Core/Cache Voltage" is showing VID or Vcc.

According to the above data sheet:

Each processor is programmed with a maximum valid voltage identification
value (VID) that is set at manufacturing and cannot be altered.
Individual maximum VID values are calibrated during manufacturing such
that two processors at the same frequency may have different settings
within the VID range.

Okay, so I guess VID is something that is query-able so the BIOS knows
what voltage to use by default. If the BIOS was not configured for
overclocking, the expectation is that CPU is operable at the VID it
reports to the BIOS. At different frequencies, the CPU is programmed
for a different VID. I suppose the data sheet indicates the variance in
Vcc based on clock frequency but I got lost in that document. Since
you're not overriding the default settings with overclocking, the
expection is the programmed VID is what the CPU should work with.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-in...t-cpu-vid.html

That has some overclockers discussing VID and Vcore. I have to wonder
why the CPU has a failure when it is running at it programmed
non-overclocked (non-adjusted VID) values that it says it should work
at. Makes me wonder if there's a failing in the CPU or in the
regulation on the mobo to the CPU (BIOS specifies the VID but the CPU
doesn't get the expect Vdrop to have adequate Vcore).


I don't know either, and I specifically don't know why the shortcoming
isn't more widely reported. With two boards now acting the same way,
maybe you're right that the CPU isn't holding up its end of the
negotiation. A person shouldn't have to make any BIOS changes just to
achieve a standard POST and boot. I may have to ask ASRock about that.

Thanks for the research.

  #40  
Old December 19th 18, 12:37 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Flasherly[_2_]
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Posts: 2,407
Default New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:11:07 -0500, Paul
wrote:

Winbond "Bitchin Betty", AKA "Vocal POST" that used to give error
messages in unintelligible audio.

.. . .

Me too. An inch & a half PC speaker, obviously leaves a lot to Betty
to be desired, so I switched in a button piezo, directly to the MB
SPKR leads. And she then became Moan'in Mona.
 




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