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#31
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:48:05 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie wrote: Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low. It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot from a DVD. Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700, but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the heat under control. Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then entered a value of 1.1v. The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD. Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!] What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ? In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr... I have a Asrock-Z170 Extreme6, when I do a bios update, the machine boots to bios screen then powers down. It restarts in about 15 - 20 seconds and boots normally. What bios is the board booting from? There is a led next to operational bios. Jumper setting wrong? Sorry if I'm taking out of my ass... |
#32
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD
On 12/18/2018 12:48 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie wrote: Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low. It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot from a DVD. Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700, but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the heat under control. Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then entered a value of 1.1v. The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD. Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!] I'm glad it helped. What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ? Vcore on mine is set to Auto which sets it at 1.216v. I have an I7 7700K 4.20GHz 4 cores. I only got the reboot problem when I 'played' with the voltage, lowering it to see how low it would go before it stopped working. If I recall correctly it got down to just under 1 volt when it started rebooting. In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr... I still don't understand why it worked when booting from a DVD. Charlie |
#33
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 08:10:50 -0500, "SC Tom" wrote:
"Char Jackson" wrote in message .. . [lots of snipping to leave just the relevant part] I connected a known working PSU (Corsair vx550w), The PSU is connected by the standard 24-pin connector and the 8-pin EPS12v connector. The mobo has a separate 4-pin ATX12v connector, which remains unconnected. ASRock tech support says that's fine. I may have missed it somewhere in this thread, but have you tried plugging in the 4-pin ATX12v connector? Certainly wouldn't hurt anything if not needed, and would eliminate one more thing. Just a thought :-) I know I wrote a word wall to start things off, but I wanted to be complete. You're forgiven for having missed it in that mess. This motherboard has both the 4-pin ATX12v connector and the 8-pin EPS12v connector. My PSUs (plural) both have the 4+4-style connector, so I combined them to make the 8-pin EPS12v connection. BTW, as of this morning the new system is still humming along. No unplanned, unscheduled shutdowns and restarts after raising the vcore voltage last night. The light that I see is either the end of the tunnel or an oncoming train, but so far so good. |
#34
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATAHDD
Bill wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: Then another 30-40 attempts with the replacement board. You've reminded me why I stay away from the bleeding edge, use quality parts, etc. And still I've had a few "difficulties". IMO, Having to mount a CPU just to flash the MB seems like an awful lot to ask... I would expect a discount, maybe. Good luck! Bill The very best scheme, is there is a chip they can attach to a USB port, that allows flashing from a USB stick to the motherboard BIOS. You don't even need a CPU in the socket, to flash up the BIOS. On my board it's called "USB BIOS Flashback". https://event.asus.com/2012/mb/usb_b...ashback_guide/ It's probably a microcontroller of some kind, with SPI bus capabilities. Something like that. It has to be a microcontroller, because it's looking for some specific file name on the USB stick FAT32. And the way Asus works, is when they have an "exclusive feature" like that, it only lasts in the product line for a few years, before the luster wears off from a marketing perspective, and it's removed. Nothing last forever, when it comes to features. Part of the attraction is "it's shiny". Asus used to have the Winbond "Bitchin Betty", AKA "Vocal POST" that used to give error messages in unintelligible audio. That was likely two chips for a buck a piece kind of thing. I thought that would last, but they've stopped shipping that. There are times that comes in handy, even if the audio leaves a lot to be desired. Paul |
#35
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 07:22:47 -0500, Bill wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: Then another 30-40 attempts with the replacement board. You've reminded me why I stay away from the bleeding edge, use quality parts, etc. I didn't think I was that close to any edge. The Z390 chipset is basically last year's H370 chipset, so nothing radical there, and the CPU is fairly high up the Intel food chain, but I intentionally waited for the 9000-series to come out so that I'd be back one series. As for ASRock and what seems to be a silly default voltage setting, I can't say what happened there. You'd think this would affect a whole lot of people, not just me. And still I've had a few "difficulties". IMO, Having to mount a CPU just to flash the MB seems like an awful lot to ask... I would expect a discount, maybe. Good luck! At least I was aware of the AMD situation, so I was aware of the easy way to avoid the whole thing. All you have to do is shop for "Ryzen 2000 Series Ready", which weeds out the boards that would have to be flashed with a loaner CPU. I almost went that way, with a Ryzen 2700X and X470 board, but at the last minute I came back to Intel for this build. |
#36
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
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#37
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:20:15 -0500, Charlie
wrote: On 12/18/2018 12:48 AM, Char Jackson wrote: On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:03:53 -0500, Charlie wrote: Have you tried raising the CPU voltage slightly? My ASRock Z270 Extreme will reboot on startup if the CPU voltage is too low. It's worth a try although I'm at a loss to understand how it would boot from a DVD. Well that was an interesting suggestion. The default setting for vcore is Auto, which resulted in a vcore voltage of 0.971v. Google seems to indicate that 1.35v is probably the upper ceiling for the Core i7-8700, but values of 1.1v to 1.3v are usually selected in order to keep the heat under control. Taking somewhat of a chance, I set vcore to Fixed (versus Auto), then entered a value of 1.1v. The system booted without issues from the Linux DVD, but it has done that before. I shut it down and reconnected the SATA HDD, leaving the optical drive connected, and tried to boot from the HDD. It booted perfectly! That's the first time it has been able to boot from the HDD. Now I'm letting it run through some boring routine admin tasks, such as creating system snapshots, making and suggesting a list of software packages that could be updated, etc. It's been running from the HDD for about 3 minutes now, and that's a huge leap forward. [Edit: It's been running for over 30 minutes and still going. Amazing!] I'm glad it helped. What are you running for vcore? Also, Fixed or Ratio or ? Vcore on mine is set to Auto which sets it at 1.216v. I have an I7 7700K 4.20GHz 4 cores. I only got the reboot problem when I 'played' with the voltage, lowering it to see how low it would go before it stopped working. If I recall correctly it got down to just under 1 volt when it started rebooting. In a previous post, I remember saying that I trust the defaults. Grrr... I still don't understand why it worked when booting from a DVD. Paul offered the theory that when I was attempting to boot from the HDD, the power draw was higher than when I was booting from the DVD. Only marginal, perhaps, but enough to tip things over. I'll do additional research today to see what's considered optimal for the i7-8700 (non-K version), then manually set it. It's currently 1.1v, but I won't be surprised if the consensus says to use something closer to what you're using, say 1.20 to 1.25v. |
#38
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 23:17:48 -0600, VanguardLH wrote: Char Jackson wrote: Hmm, I started wondering about UEFI which, I believe, is used by your mobo. I haven't delved into that. When you boot using the USB thumb drive, I'm not sure how UEFI is involved. When booting from a SSD or HDD, UEFI is involved. The whole UEFI scheme was Microsoft wanting to lockdown an installation of their Windows product. It seems to irritate Linux users because of the SecureBoot protection. Can you find a SecureBoot option in the BIOS and see what happens when you disable it? https://www.avira.com/en/support-for...tail/kbid/1811 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ng-secure-boot You'd think they have the firmware issue some bitch message that your OS wasn't properly signed but knowing Microsoft they might've convinced the BIOS makers to just immediately shutdown without a clue to the user. The SecureBoot option comes disabled by default. I did go looking for it to make sure, but I didn't need to disable it. Charlie suggested checking the vcore voltage, which might have been too low. I bumped it from 0.971v to 1.1v and I'm testing it now. The system booted from the HDD for the first time and has been running now for about 45 minutes. I'm optimistic. I was looking through the data spec sheet at: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...heet-vol-1.pdf to see what was the recommended normal operating voltage for Vcore or Vcc. It says 1.52V maximum. Minimum is 0V (zero). Well, yeah, that means unpowered. But you'd think they would list a recommended, normal, typical, or optimal voltage. Apparently there is some ambiguity regarding what is getting measured. CPU-z looks to report Vcc but some users are saying the BIOS is report VID. VID is the nominal voltage assigned to the cores in the BIOS where Vcore/Vcc is the resulting voltage on the cores after regulation of VID. If the BIOS uses the programmed voltages vs frequency coded in the CPU at manufacture time, it uses VID when using the preset values or use Vcore if you alter to a different voltage than VID. https://www.anandtech.com/show/13468...aichi-review/3 That shows screen captures of the BIOS screens. Ugh, what a bunch of noise in the UI. Lots of fluff instead of just grouped text of black text on a white background. The OC Tweaker tab panel seems to be where you set the voltage but their pic obliterated the CPU Core voltage setting with them showing the popup dialog for selecting voltage mode. With some BIOSes showing VID instead of Vcc, I'm not sure if "CPU Core/Cache Voltage" is showing VID or Vcc. According to the above data sheet: Each processor is programmed with a maximum valid voltage identification value (VID) that is set at manufacturing and cannot be altered. Individual maximum VID values are calibrated during manufacturing such that two processors at the same frequency may have different settings within the VID range. Okay, so I guess VID is something that is query-able so the BIOS knows what voltage to use by default. If the BIOS was not configured for overclocking, the expectation is that CPU is operable at the VID it reports to the BIOS. At different frequencies, the CPU is programmed for a different VID. I suppose the data sheet indicates the variance in Vcc based on clock frequency but I got lost in that document. Since you're not overriding the default settings with overclocking, the expection is the programmed VID is what the CPU should work with. https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-in...t-cpu-vid.html That has some overclockers discussing VID and Vcore. I have to wonder why the CPU has a failure when it is running at it programmed non-overclocked (non-adjusted VID) values that it says it should work at. Makes me wonder if there's a failing in the CPU or in the regulation on the mobo to the CPU (BIOS specifies the VID but the CPU doesn't get the expect Vdrop to have adequate Vcore). |
#39
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 11:43:52 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:
I was looking through the data spec sheet at: https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...heet-vol-1.pdf to see what was the recommended normal operating voltage for Vcore or Vcc. It says 1.52V maximum. Minimum is 0V (zero). Well, yeah, that means unpowered. But you'd think they would list a recommended, normal, typical, or optimal voltage. At 1.1v, I guess I'm within that range. But yeah, why not just come out with a recommended operating range so that a person would have a starting point. Apparently there is some ambiguity regarding what is getting measured. CPU-z looks to report Vcc but some users are saying the BIOS is report VID. VID is the nominal voltage assigned to the cores in the BIOS where Vcore/Vcc is the resulting voltage on the cores after regulation of VID. If the BIOS uses the programmed voltages vs frequency coded in the CPU at manufacture time, it uses VID when using the preset values or use Vcore if you alter to a different voltage than VID. https://www.anandtech.com/show/13468...aichi-review/3 That shows screen captures of the BIOS screens. Ugh, what a bunch of noise in the UI. Lots of fluff instead of just grouped text of black text on a white background. The OC Tweaker tab panel seems to be where you set the voltage but their pic obliterated the CPU Core voltage setting with them showing the popup dialog for selecting voltage mode. With some BIOSes showing VID instead of Vcc, I'm not sure if "CPU Core/Cache Voltage" is showing VID or Vcc. According to the above data sheet: Each processor is programmed with a maximum valid voltage identification value (VID) that is set at manufacturing and cannot be altered. Individual maximum VID values are calibrated during manufacturing such that two processors at the same frequency may have different settings within the VID range. Okay, so I guess VID is something that is query-able so the BIOS knows what voltage to use by default. If the BIOS was not configured for overclocking, the expectation is that CPU is operable at the VID it reports to the BIOS. At different frequencies, the CPU is programmed for a different VID. I suppose the data sheet indicates the variance in Vcc based on clock frequency but I got lost in that document. Since you're not overriding the default settings with overclocking, the expection is the programmed VID is what the CPU should work with. https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-in...t-cpu-vid.html That has some overclockers discussing VID and Vcore. I have to wonder why the CPU has a failure when it is running at it programmed non-overclocked (non-adjusted VID) values that it says it should work at. Makes me wonder if there's a failing in the CPU or in the regulation on the mobo to the CPU (BIOS specifies the VID but the CPU doesn't get the expect Vdrop to have adequate Vcore). I don't know either, and I specifically don't know why the shortcoming isn't more widely reported. With two boards now acting the same way, maybe you're right that the CPU isn't holding up its end of the negotiation. A person shouldn't have to make any BIOS changes just to achieve a standard POST and boot. I may have to ask ASRock about that. Thanks for the research. |
#40
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New system build - reboot loop when attempting to boot from SATA HDD
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 12:11:07 -0500, Paul
wrote: Winbond "Bitchin Betty", AKA "Vocal POST" that used to give error messages in unintelligible audio. .. . . Me too. An inch & a half PC speaker, obviously leaves a lot to Betty to be desired, so I switched in a button piezo, directly to the MB SPKR leads. And she then became Moan'in Mona. |
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