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Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 28th 10, 12:26 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Dennis Coggia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force" it with
software?
Thanks in advance...
  #2  
Old December 28th 10, 01:33 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Dennis Coggia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Dennis Coggia wrote in
. 3.30:

I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to
"force" it with software?
Thanks in advance...


Few xtra details, when I create a custom setting it accepts the 240
setting, but still shows refresh rate a 60. Also, under "monitor" in
windows display properties, it identifies a generic pnp display, nvidia
software sees it as a SONY TV
  #3  
Old December 28th 10, 01:46 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Dennis Coggia wrote:
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force" it with
software?
Thanks in advance...


Cable up the TV set to the video card, and query the
display with this.

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

The info you get back with that (the "real time" entry),
will tell you the specs the display will be enforcing.
There is no particular reason, that "forcing" from
the video card, past those specs, will give
anything other than "Out Of Range" on the OSD
(On Screen Display). You may get a different answer
via VGA, than HDMI, so test both of them.

If I use the Nvidia control panel here, and use the function
that allows Custom Resolutions to be set, if I set
H and V to 320 x 240, the control panel claims I can
use up to 500Hz as a refresh rate. But if I actually
pressed the "Test" button, and drove that signal
to my monitor, my monitor would just laugh. I've been
a hair over the max before, and the "Out Of Range"
feature is quite accurate. It'll "black screen" on
me, if it is even off a little bit. So you'll get
your answer pretty quickly.

Paul
  #4  
Old December 28th 10, 04:15 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Jim[_31_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 115
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

"Dennis Coggia" wrote in message
. 3.30...
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force" it with
software?

TVs only accept 60HZ input. You need a 3D LCD monitor to get 120HZ input.

  #5  
Old December 28th 10, 06:24 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Dennis Coggia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

"Jim" wrote in
:

"Dennis Coggia" wrote in message
. 3.30...
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force" it
with software?

TVs only accept 60HZ input. You need a 3D LCD monitor to get 120HZ
input.



Hey thanks paul, I'm trying that now.
The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL 46NX800 and supports 240hz. Just got this baby
last Sunday
  #6  
Old December 28th 10, 09:16 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Dennis Coggia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Dennis Coggia wrote in
. 3.30:

"Jim" wrote in
:

"Dennis Coggia" wrote in message
. 3.30...
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force"
it with software?

TVs only accept 60HZ input. You need a 3D LCD monitor to get 120HZ
input.



Hey thanks paul, I'm trying that now.
The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL 46NX800 and supports 240hz. Just got this
baby last Sunday


No luck, I created an .inf file with the Entech software. The funny thing
is as I mentioned, when I test the 240 mode after creating a custom
resolution, i get the ok. A window pops up and confirms that the new
resolution and refresh rate has been tested and applied.
Timing characteristics
Horizontal scan range.... 15-70kHz
Vertical scan range...... 58-62Hz
Video bandwidth.......... 150MHz
CVT standard............. Not supported
GTF standard............. Not supported
Additional descriptors... None
Preferred timing......... Yes
Native/preferred timing.. 1920x1080p at 60Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080
1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync
Detailed timing #1....... 1280x720p at 60Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725
730 750 +hsync +vsync
  #7  
Old December 28th 10, 10:20 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Dennis Coggia wrote:
"Jim" wrote in
:

"Dennis Coggia" wrote in message
. 3.30...
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force" it
with software?

TVs only accept 60HZ input. You need a 3D LCD monitor to get 120HZ
input.



Hey thanks paul, I'm trying that now.
The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL 46NX800 and supports 240hz. Just got this baby
last Sunday


Hmmm. The manual isn't much help. The Sony site claimed the manual
had specs for the inputs, and it doesn't. I finally found a manual here.

http://content.abt.com/documents/244...800_manual.pdf

HDMI IN 1/2/3/4 HDMI: Video: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, 1080/24p
Audio: Two channel linear PCM 32, 44.1 and 48 kHz,
16, 20 and 24 bits, Dolby Digital
AUDIO (HDMI IN 1)

PC IN D-sub 15-pin, analog RGB

There are a couple things missing there. The HDMI should be specified at
some frame rate. Only the 1080/24p is a complete example. The
statement of 1080p, likely implies 1080p50/1080p60/1080p59.97 and
so on. But other things are possible, and I suppose they might have
stated them, if they were a "feature".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p

"HD ready 1080p logo program by DIGITALEUROPE requires that
certified TV sets support 1080p24, 1080p50, and 1080p60 formats,
and feature a native resolution of at least 1920×1080 pixels,
among other requirements."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi

"The frame rate can be either implied by the context or specified
after the letter 'p', such as 1080p30, meaning 30 progressive frames
per second."

The VGA input is completely unspecified. Even cheesy sets come with
a spec, so why are they hiding it ? If the native resolution of the
set was 1920x1080, we'd at least expect to see that at 60Hz. But
whether the thing is multi-sync, and capable of everything from
640x480 up to 1920x1080, only a full spec would have told us.
(The Moninfo program should tell you.)

If you look in the HDMI article, capabilities go by spec revision.
They mention HDMI 1.4a for example:

"HDMI 1.4 supports several stereoscopic 3D formats including field
alternative (interlaced), frame packing (a full resolution top-bottom
format), line alternative full, side-by-side half, side-by-side full,
2D + depth, and 2D + depth + graphics + graphics depth (WOWvx),
with additional top/bottom formats added in version 1.4a ."

And HDMI has bandwidth limitations. Even with reduced blanking, I doubt
the cable could handle 1080p240. It might even have trouble with p120.

And an example of how 3D TV is transmitted, is described here.
So far, none of those examples implies direct usage of
high frame rates. They instead, pack things into higher
resolution "blobs", to be post-processed by the TV. This
still is hard on the cabling, because a lot more bits
are being sent.

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/

Perhaps the VGA input is capable of "tricks", but I wouldn't
hold my breath. I'm hoping the Moninfo application, tested
on both HDMI and VGA, will tell you what the TV is
capable of.

As far as "breaking into the set and accessing the 240Hz",
that isn't going to happen either. To prevent piracy,
the digital streams are protected by encryption (HDCP),
and such protections will continue inside the set. Perhaps
there is a place, somewhere near the panel driver chip,
to get at an unencrypted version. Like, tapping all the
horizontal and vertical pixel drivers and recording the
signals on those. But finding a handy "auxiliary input"
lying unused inside the set, is highly unlikely.

For your set, the implication is the "MotionFlow"
stage, is a feature internal to the set, and not
accessible externally. It's an upsampling option,
based on lower rate signals as inputs.

Paul
  #8  
Old December 28th 10, 11:28 PM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Dennis Coggia wrote:
Dennis Coggia wrote in
. 3.30:

"Jim" wrote in
:

"Dennis Coggia" wrote in message
. 3.30...
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force"
it with software?
TVs only accept 60HZ input. You need a 3D LCD monitor to get 120HZ
input.


Hey thanks paul, I'm trying that now.
The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL 46NX800 and supports 240hz. Just got this
baby last Sunday


No luck, I created an .inf file with the Entech software. The funny thing
is as I mentioned, when I test the 240 mode after creating a custom
resolution, i get the ok. A window pops up and confirms that the new
resolution and refresh rate has been tested and applied.
Timing characteristics
Horizontal scan range.... 15-70kHz
Vertical scan range...... 58-62Hz
Video bandwidth.......... 150MHz
CVT standard............. Not supported
GTF standard............. Not supported
Additional descriptors... None
Preferred timing......... Yes
Native/preferred timing.. 1920x1080p at 60Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1920x1080" 148.500 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080
1084 1089 1125 +hsync +vsync
Detailed timing #1....... 1280x720p at 60Hz (16:9)
Modeline............... "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1390 1430 1650 720 725
730 750 +hsync +vsync


OK, that implies you tested via HDMI (or used a DVI to HDMI cable,
coming from the computer). The two modelines, look to me to be
1080p60 and 720p60. The clock on the first one is 148MHz, and
HDMI goes up to 340MHz or so, depending on revision (the higher
you push the refresh, the higher that clock rate goes). On DVI,
the clock goes to 165MHz. I would expect a DVI to HDMI adapter
cable, to be limited to the DVI limits on clock (165MHz).
With the right HDMI standards on both ends, you can go to 340MHz.
Which means, if the monitor would allow it, you could crank
the refresh by 340/148.5 * 60Hz = 137Hz. If only it was that
simple. The HDMI interface, doesn't have enough bandwidth to
run 1080p240. You'd need to drop the dimensions of the
image, like down to 1024x768, to be able to run the refresh
faster. And the set may not like that, either. All scaler
chips, have some kinds of limits on what they'll support.
(The processor inside the TV, has to program the chips
for the appropriate mode(s), when a new signal is detected.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi

HDMI version 1.0–1.2a 1.3 1.4
Clock rate (MHz) 165 340 340

I recommend you test via VGA 15 pin connector, as there is
less reason to limit inputs to p60. You might get 75Hz over VGA.

The LCD TV is likely to enforce the limits stated in the EDID tables,
so if you jam 240Hz into it, it should say "Out Of Range". I'd
try going just a little above 60Hz for starters, like perhaps
trying 72Hz or 75Hz, and see if you make any progress. Some
LCD panels will handle 72Hz without a problem. And 75Hz, might be
the next value up from 60Hz, on VGA, if you test it. Try just a little
change to start, to see if your crafting of custom settings, really
works.

Paul
  #9  
Old December 29th 10, 01:34 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Dennis Coggia
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Paul wrote in
:

Dennis Coggia wrote:
"Jim" wrote in
:

"Dennis Coggia" wrote in message
. 3.30...
I have a brand new 250 hz lcd TV, sony nx800 line. The GTS 250 is
suppossed
to support 250hz but I'm not having any luck. Do I have to "force"
it with software?
TVs only accept 60HZ input. You need a 3D LCD monitor to get 120HZ
input.



Hey thanks paul, I'm trying that now.
The TV is a Sony Bravia KDL 46NX800 and supports 240hz. Just got this
baby last Sunday


Hmmm. The manual isn't much help. The Sony site claimed the manual
had specs for the inputs, and it doesn't. I finally found a manual
here.

http://content.abt.com/documents/244...800_manual.pdf

HDMI IN 1/2/3/4 HDMI: Video: 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p,
1080/24p
Audio: Two channel linear PCM 32, 44.1
and 48 kHz,
16, 20 and 24 bits, Dolby Digital
AUDIO (HDMI IN 1)

PC IN D-sub 15-pin, analog RGB

There are a couple things missing there. The HDMI should be specified
at some frame rate. Only the 1080/24p is a complete example. The
statement of 1080p, likely implies 1080p50/1080p60/1080p59.97 and
so on. But other things are possible, and I suppose they might have
stated them, if they were a "feature".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1080p

"HD ready 1080p logo program by DIGITALEUROPE requires that
certified TV sets support 1080p24, 1080p50, and 1080p60 formats,
and feature a native resolution of at least 1920×1080 pixels,
among other requirements."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdmi

"The frame rate can be either implied by the context or specified
after the letter 'p', such as 1080p30, meaning 30 progressive
frames per second."

The VGA input is completely unspecified. Even cheesy sets come with
a spec, so why are they hiding it ? If the native resolution of the
set was 1920x1080, we'd at least expect to see that at 60Hz. But
whether the thing is multi-sync, and capable of everything from
640x480 up to 1920x1080, only a full spec would have told us.
(The Moninfo program should tell you.)

If you look in the HDMI article, capabilities go by spec revision.
They mention HDMI 1.4a for example:

"HDMI 1.4 supports several stereoscopic 3D formats including field
alternative (interlaced), frame packing (a full resolution
top-bottom format), line alternative full, side-by-side half,
side-by-side full, 2D + depth, and 2D + depth + graphics +
graphics depth (WOWvx), with additional top/bottom formats added
in version 1.4a ."

And HDMI has bandwidth limitations. Even with reduced blanking, I
doubt the cable could handle 1080p240. It might even have trouble with
p120.

And an example of how 3D TV is transmitted, is described here.
So far, none of those examples implies direct usage of
high frame rates. They instead, pack things into higher
resolution "blobs", to be post-processed by the TV. This
still is hard on the cabling, because a lot more bits
are being sent.

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/

Perhaps the VGA input is capable of "tricks", but I wouldn't
hold my breath. I'm hoping the Moninfo application, tested
on both HDMI and VGA, will tell you what the TV is
capable of.

As far as "breaking into the set and accessing the 240Hz",
that isn't going to happen either. To prevent piracy,
the digital streams are protected by encryption (HDCP),
and such protections will continue inside the set. Perhaps
there is a place, somewhere near the panel driver chip,
to get at an unencrypted version. Like, tapping all the
horizontal and vertical pixel drivers and recording the
signals on those. But finding a handy "auxiliary input"
lying unused inside the set, is highly unlikely.

For your set, the implication is the "MotionFlow"
stage, is a feature internal to the set, and not
accessible externally. It's an upsampling option,
based on lower rate signals as inputs.

Paul


Hey Man thanks for all your time, this was the best set of specs that i
found, do't know if you ran across it:
('http://www.docs.sony.com/reflib/docget.asp?manualid=1073101
&template_id=1&region_id=1&DL=',600,560,10,10,'Man uals')
It's funny that you mentioned the cable itself i was wondering about
that. It's not a super cheapo one but it's definately not anywhere near
the expense of others that I've seen. I work alot with analog signal
cables so I certainly know the value of decent gear. Until recently I
thought the digital transmissions were "less corruptable" until I fought
with a flaky fiber optic connector. What do you think? stranger things
happen. It wouldn't be a tragedy if I can't make this happen. I did
spend a couple hundred bucks to get the 240hz version. This computer is
primarily used to stream movies from my drives and so far i haven't
noticed any artifacts even with the more agressive action scenes. I do
wonder what the purpose of the 240 hz capabilities of the card is. Maybe
I'll call the manufacture and seewhat they say
  #10  
Old December 29th 10, 06:00 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,364
Default Need help setting refresh rate on 250 GTS

Dennis Coggia wrote:


Hey Man thanks for all your time, this was the best set of specs that i
found, do't know if you ran across it:
('http://www.docs.sony.com/reflib/docget.asp?manualid=1073101
&template_id=1&region_id=1&DL=',600,560,10,10,'Man uals')
It's funny that you mentioned the cable itself i was wondering about
that. It's not a super cheapo one but it's definately not anywhere near
the expense of others that I've seen. I work alot with analog signal
cables so I certainly know the value of decent gear. Until recently I
thought the digital transmissions were "less corruptable" until I fought
with a flaky fiber optic connector. What do you think? stranger things
happen. It wouldn't be a tragedy if I can't make this happen. I did
spend a couple hundred bucks to get the 240hz version. This computer is
primarily used to stream movies from my drives and so far i haven't
noticed any artifacts even with the more agressive action scenes. I do
wonder what the purpose of the 240 hz capabilities of the card is. Maybe
I'll call the manufacture and seewhat they say


From that datasheet:

"Video Signal: 1080/60p (HDMI / COMPONENT), 1080/60i,
1080/24p (HDMI ONLY), 720/60p, 480/60p, 480/60i"

Without trying to decode that, it still looks like HDMI
at least, is 60p max (60Hz, Progressive). The component
YPbPr supports some of the same ones. No spec for VGA (PC input).
Of any of them, the VGA is the one most likely to do
something slightly above 60Hz. That's the one I'd be
testing with the Moninfo program.

In terms of bandwidth, I was quoting the HDMI specs, as to
what operations they support. HDMI 1.4 goes up to 340MHz
clock. Operation faster than that, would require the transmitting
end to support a higher clock. If the loss (attenuation) or
ISI (intersymbol interference) causes eye closure on the cable,
then longer cables or higher rate attempts, result in "digital snow",
and if the error rate is severe enough, loss of sync. Then the
screen goes blank. But for slightly crappy cables, you might
notice a bit of colored sparkles on the screen, as an indication
you're on the edge. There is some amount of variation in cables,
and it's probably cheaper to just put the computer next to the
TV, than to spend a fortune on fancy cabling. If you drop the
resolutioh (H x V) or reduce the refresh rate, the cable clock
rate drops, and the snow disappears.

(An eye diagram for HDMI, on a digital scope. As long as the orange
and yellow, doesn't touch the blue, the thing passes.)

http://conformity.com/artman/uploads...4_fig4_low.jpg

When I refer to 340MHz clock, that makes the cable and scheme sound
pretty wimpy. But in fact, for each clock cycle, HDMI sends 10 bits
of data serially. So 340 * 10 = 3400MHz or 3.4GHz. There is a
diff pair for each color gun (so total bandwidth is 3x that number).
When received, the 10 bits on the line, is decoded to 8 bits of user data.
Plus functions such as DC balance. I think DisplayPort may do a bit
better than that, as it uses a more efficient coding scheme. The nice
thing about the HDMI, is the coding format would be ready to send
across fiber optics (8B/10B has been used for some years, for lower
rate fiber).

*******

You know, your experience with your LCD TV, is something
like my experience with a web cam I bought last year.
It advertised 1280x1024 resolution and 30FPS capture rate.
What I learned later, is the features were "either/or".
I could have 640x480 @ 30FPS or 1280x1024 @ 5FPS. The Windows
interface for the camera, wouldn't lay out those facts in
black and white. When I used some Linux software, that
software put all the relevant info into one table, and
that's when I realized what a crock the statements on the
back of the box were. The practice continues to this day -
high res web cams, have useless FPS rates for capture at
their full resolution. Except when you're using them
as a still camera, then the extra pixels are worth
something to you. And even so, with long exposure times,
it's easy to take blurry pictures.

Paul
 




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