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Capacitors on graphics cards...



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 29th 08, 01:29 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 330
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

Somewhere on teh intarweb "kony" typed:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:32:18 +1200, "~misfit~"
wrote:


They're GSC brand, as are all the other 'lytics, a name I've seen
lots of times on caps I've had to replace. The replacement I fitted
is a 25V Jenpo. I went with matching the capacitance as long as the
voltage was the same or higher and it's all I found in my small
collection of caps. I've only bothered keeping caps if either they
came out of quality equipment (IBM servers for instance that were
'retired' due to obsolescence, nothing wrong with them) or if I
recognise the brand of cap as being a good one such as Nichicon or
Rubycon.


Being GSC, I'd expect to have to replace all of those for
longer term use.


That's what I thought. I don't have a reference site to tell me that but I
know I've replaced quite a few bad GSC caps.

Generally what I do when ordering caps
for some project is get extras, like a bunch of 8mm and 10mm
diameter in 10-12mm size and 20+mm size, then I have extras
for other projects so it's not so costly to order exactly
what I'd need each time.


Yeah, I've done that to a certain extent. It's really hard to get
caps here though. It seems that all manufacturers source their
components offshore which leaves hobbyists high and dry as far as
locally sourced components go. I was after some caps a couple years
ago to repair a mobo and simply couldn't get any suitable anywhere I
looked here. I contacted the NZ Rubycon agent and asked. They said
they'd get back to me by email. I got an email a week later saying
that they didn't have stock in NZ and there'd be a 2 month lead-time
for stock ex-Japan. I said OK, I want some. They replied a week
later saying it'd be a minimum order of 1,000 units payable in
advance. I said, OK, how much would that cost me? I never heard
back, despite re-sending the email weekly for a month.

In the end I got a handful from Badcaps.net, sent to a friend in the
US as they wouldn't post to here and he sent them on to me. Bloody
expensive.


I suppose it depends on how many you need, how you need them
shipped, but I thought I vaguely recalled our US Postal
Service will deliver a large envelop for a little under $10
USD. A better (cheaper) place to get some other good brands
(just not Rubycon) might be electronics houses like Digikey
or Mouser. Depending on what the cap size is, sometimes
they're still around a dollar a piece (in Qty. 10+) for the
larger ones I've sometimes used in power supplies, though
probably closer to $0.25 each per 10 in the smaller sizes
you're dealing with.


I have Mouser bookmarked as, IIRC, they will post anywhere. However, back
then, and until recently, I'd resisted getting a credit card so trying to
order was an exercise in futility.

You could always call them and ask, and see if they'd throw
a handful in an envelop for regular postal service delivery
to cut down on costs? Sometimes if you say you're a student
they might be more accomdating.


It seems that even the places that cater to hobbyists are getting
gouged. Anywhere that stocks them seem to charge a minimum of a buck
a cap, going up to 3 bucks and have a minimum frieght price. That's
why I enquired about getting a batch from Rubycon. I figured I could
either re-cap some boards to make my money back or advertise some of
the surplus in the local comp group..

I'd see if I had an old motherboard lying around with
something close enough, that'll fit in the available space.

This might be my best option, try it with one of the graphics cards
anyway.

That's what I usually do on anything that isn't of high
value anymore, then I started getting too big a stack of
cannibalized motherboards and started using a small torch to
pull lots of parts off and throw them into a few plastic
containers so I could throw the boards away.


Heh! I had a big cleanout a while back, kept a stack of boards to
cannabalise but got sick of it after a short time. I don't have a
torch and it was tedious removing them with my 30W soldering iron.


I can imagine it would be. I've used an iron for something
now and then that was still on a board but usually just heat
a big area with a torch and slap the side of a board against
a piece of plywood and a bunch of stuff falls off. I don't
care much if I get everything because I've had a source of
dead boards from some shops so it's really more about
putting the least amount of work possible into doing it.
Plus it really sticks when the board is heated by a torch,
has to be done outside.


Heh! That would be handy. Sorting through them would be a bitch though. ;-)

I just paid NZ$45 on the local version of ebay (trademe.co.nz) for
an FX5700 in good condition, all polymer caps and with original box,
manual, driver CDs etc. GF2's still regularly fetch $25 each. You
can get cheaper if you're prepared to buy items where they say
"untested, working when stored, no warranty" but I know of people
who sell duds that way and can't afford to gamble.


I have to keep reminding myself that converts to less, about
1:0.7 IIRC, in US:NZ dollars... so the latter would only be
$17.50 USD which is not so bad, almost getting to the point
where the shipping cost approaches half the card cost.


Yeah, that's a big problem, especially with rising fuel costs. Shipping has
nearly doubled in some cases in recent times. I bought a PCI GF2MX400/32MB
from New Zealand's homegrown version of ebay, trademe.co.nz the other day. I
got lucky on the auction, nobody else bid and I got it for $3. (It was
listed in the wrong category, AGP instead of PCI.) I don't really have a use
for it but thought it might be handy and was really cheap.However it cost me
another $12 to get it delivered. $15 all up. Not so cheap anymore.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)


  #22  
Old August 29th 08, 01:38 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 330
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

Somewhere on teh intarweb "kony" typed:
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:51:08 +0100, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

In article , ~misfit~
writes

I've always been a bit wary of re-using caps as I don't have a
multimeter cpable of testing capcitance and, IME, bad caps are the
biggest reason for failure for most electronics.


You aren't just testing for capacitance, but need to test for ESR
(equivalent series resistance). Failing caps develop high ESR in
addition to reduced capacitance, causing them to heat up. This
becomes a vicious circle until the capacitor fails. The reduced
capacitance results in increased ripple and this is what cooks the
MOSFETs and coils.

It's not worth buying an ESR meter just to test a few caps. Just
swap out all the electrolytics. I wouldn't even bother with the PCI
card - that goes to landfill. The ti4200s are worth saving for the
sake of half an hour's work, and you'll have the satisfaction of a
successful fix.

There are five 1500uf 6.3V caps on each graphics card and I have a
(dead) Asus mobo with seven Nichicon caps on it of the same value.
However, the caps on the graphics cards are 8mm diameter with 3.5mm
lead spacing and the ones on the mobo are 10mm / 5mm and have very
short leads. Maybe I can get them to fit...


Why re-use caps from a motherboard? They are an unknown quantity, and
the caps in switching power supplies on mobos have a hard life.

Get the right caps new. The 10mm dia ones are 36 pence each on
http://rswww.com, part number 449-0851, and the 8mm dia ones are 24
pence each, p/n 526-0954. I'd expect prices to be similar in NZ. I
think RS has an Australian presence - worth checking.


The reason to try reusing capacitors from a motherboard a

1) Capacitors from a motherboard don't generally fail below
the needed threshold for the video cards if they aren't
visibly vented.

2) Capacitors from a motherboard tend to be larger sized
lower ESR than the originals so even if they have had a
somewhat hard life, their parameters still tend to fall
within that required by the circuit after accounting for
aging, unless there were a defective formula that would
self-destruct before their expected lifespan had ended.

3) Buying new capacitors is easily worth the cost of one
entire video card as misfit has already priced them out at
$20 per card.


Yep. That was the caps for two card, plus freight divided by two.

Spending that sort of money may mean little to anyone else but to me it's
either that or any number of other things that are clamouring for my small
discretionary spending fund. If I'm not 90% sure the caps are going to fix
the card then there are other things I can spend the money on.

That seems high to me but being in the US I
really can't say, I've heard of other areas having
significant addt'l expense sourcing other electronic
components so it wouldn't be surprising. By trying
motherboard caps it may be possible to determine if a
capacitor replacement will revive a card and if so, easier
to deem whether it is worth buying the capacitors. Further
it has been noted that another used card can be purchased
for about the same price, so while it would be rewarding to
get it working again the path towards one goal seems surer
by buying another card the owner claims does work.


Aye.

4) I suggested it because I do it all the time with good
results. The one caveat is that this is almost always when
I'm replacing a cap that was visibly vented already, since
the others on these two cards have not vented it leaves some
uncertainty about the real cause since even a cap that isn't
functioning very well would have a signficantly lower
filtering requirement with the card just posting and
running in 2D mode long enough to see if the card worked at
all, versus operating in 3D mode like when gaming.

Also, if one has reasonable soldering skills and an
ohm-meter doesn't indicate a near short on any caps, the
original caps need not necessarily be removed from the card
at all, the proposed second cap can be placed on the opposte
side of the card and it's leads carefully soldered to the
exposed portion of the original cap's leads. Pretty it
isn't, but if the original simply isn't a suitably low ESR
or capacitance value anymore, the second will tend to be
enough to offset that plus it's usually quicker and easier
to just tack down a second cap on the rear of the card then
desolder it after testing the result.

Another thing ~misfit~ might try is fitting the PCI card in
a board, setting the board bios to consider PCI the primary
video, then installing the AGP card and seeing if the card
is detected by nvflash or equivalent. If it shows up it
might be worthwhile to try flashing a bios to it to see if
it had the EPROM contents corrupted and that is why one, not
the one that is just instable but rather the other one,
isn't functioning.


Sorry, it seems that I wasn't clear. They will both POST now I've replaced
that one cap (but with lines/artifacts in the display) but will then force
the testbed PC into a constant re-boot cycle as it tries to go into the OS
(they seem unable to handle the resolution changes from BIOS screen to OS.).
Needless to say I didn't let that continue for long. I thought it could be
significant that they're both showing remarkably similar symptoms.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)


  #23  
Old August 29th 08, 01:15 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Mike Tomlinson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 15
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

In article , ~misfit~
writes

The thing that's been confusing me is that I've been unable to find "Low
ESR" caps and both of those you mention don't say that they're low ESR. How
am I supposed to know?


The parts I indicated are low ESR and suitable for power supplies.

In their catalogue they list various electrolytics as being suitable for
hifi crossovers and other various uses but none of their catgories say "low
ESR" or "suitable for computer components".


Have a look at the Panasonic FC series datasheet. It's linked from the
part numbers I gave earlier on the UK RS site.

Oh, NZ$1.46 and $1.09 each respectively in lots of 5+. (About right
considering the exchange rate.) Fright (LOL, typo for freight, quite apt) is
a whole other ballgame.


Standard delivery is free in UK, and has never failed to arrive next
working day, even for very small orders (I made an order for 2 quid's
worth of parts last week). As you mention you have an account, you can
find out the cost of delivery before confirming your order.

  #24  
Old August 30th 08, 03:26 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
kony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,416
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:29:20 +1200, "~misfit~"
wrote:

Somewhere on teh intarweb "kony" typed:
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:32:18 +1200, "~misfit~"
wrote:


They're GSC brand, as are all the other 'lytics, a name I've seen
lots of times on caps I've had to replace. The replacement I fitted
is a 25V Jenpo. I went with matching the capacitance as long as the
voltage was the same or higher and it's all I found in my small
collection of caps. I've only bothered keeping caps if either they
came out of quality equipment (IBM servers for instance that were
'retired' due to obsolescence, nothing wrong with them) or if I
recognise the brand of cap as being a good one such as Nichicon or
Rubycon.


Being GSC, I'd expect to have to replace all of those for
longer term use.


That's what I thought. I don't have a reference site to tell me that but I
know I've replaced quite a few bad GSC caps.


Me too. There's a list somewhere on http://www.badcaps.net
, maybe in the forums.




I suppose it depends on how many you need, how you need them
shipped, but I thought I vaguely recalled our US Postal
Service will deliver a large envelop for a little under $10
USD. A better (cheaper) place to get some other good brands
(just not Rubycon) might be electronics houses like Digikey
or Mouser. Depending on what the cap size is, sometimes
they're still around a dollar a piece (in Qty. 10+) for the
larger ones I've sometimes used in power supplies, though
probably closer to $0.25 each per 10 in the smaller sizes
you're dealing with.


I have Mouser bookmarked as, IIRC, they will post anywhere. However, back
then, and until recently, I'd resisted getting a credit card so trying to
order was an exercise in futility.


Yes, it's hard to buy without one as too few places take
paypal or other 3rd party payment methods and mailing in
payment sometimes seems less safe, though I've never heard
of anyone having significant complaints about Mouser in this
regard.


I can imagine it would be. I've used an iron for something
now and then that was still on a board but usually just heat
a big area with a torch and slap the side of a board against
a piece of plywood and a bunch of stuff falls off. I don't
care much if I get everything because I've had a source of
dead boards from some shops so it's really more about
putting the least amount of work possible into doing it.
Plus it really sticks when the board is heated by a torch,
has to be done outside.


Heh! That would be handy. Sorting through them would be a bitch though. ;-)


It's far easier to get surface-mounted chips off that way,
by destructively heating the opposite side of the board. I
suppose I could put a board in an oven to heat it but I
don't have an oven with precise temperature control so I
don't want the parts themselves subjected to the heat except
as it's transferred through the board to the leads first.
I could use a hot air gun instead but I just take the lazier
quicker way to knock a few parts off so getting any one part
isn't usually important to me.



Yeah, that's a big problem, especially with rising fuel costs. Shipping has
nearly doubled in some cases in recent times. I bought a PCI GF2MX400/32MB
from New Zealand's homegrown version of ebay, trademe.co.nz the other day. I
got lucky on the auction, nobody else bid and I got it for $3. (It was
listed in the wrong category, AGP instead of PCI.) I don't really have a use
for it but thought it might be handy and was really cheap.However it cost me
another $12 to get it delivered. $15 all up. Not so cheap anymore.


That's the problem with ebay in the US, to lower their fees
many of the sellers are jacking up shipping costs far beyond
what it actually costs to ship something.
  #25  
Old August 30th 08, 10:50 AM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 330
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

Somewhere on teh intarweb "Mike Tomlinson" typed:
In article , ~misfit~
writes

The thing that's been confusing me is that I've been unable to find
"Low ESR" caps and both of those you mention don't say that they're
low ESR. How am I supposed to know?


The parts I indicated are low ESR and suitable for power supplies.


Thanks, I appreciate you letting me know as niether RS or Panasonic seem
keen on spilling the beans.

In their catalogue they list various electrolytics as being suitable
for hifi crossovers and other various uses but none of their
catgories say "low ESR" or "suitable for computer components".


Have a look at the Panasonic FC series datasheet. It's linked from
the part numbers I gave earlier on the UK RS site.


I did that as the link from the NZ site is giving a 'temporarily
unavailable" message and has been for a few days.

It's he
http://docs-europe.electrocomponents...6b800bafec.pdf
Now, call me blind but nowhere on there do I see the acronym ESR or the
words Equivalent Series Resistance (?) or even a figure for resistance
(though I wouldn't know what was considered 'low' and what wasn't). Same for
the pdf for the other part you linked, the FM series.

This is what drove me to distraction last time I tried to decide what parts
to order from RSonline.

Oh, NZ$1.46 and $1.09 each respectively in lots of 5+. (About right
considering the exchange rate.) Fright (LOL, typo for freight, quite
apt) is a whole other ballgame.


Standard delivery is free in UK, and has never failed to arrive next
working day, even for very small orders (I made an order for 2 quid's
worth of parts last week). As you mention you have an account, you
can find out the cost of delivery before confirming your order.


Yeah, I signed up a year or three back and get their emails regularly. I
requested the paper catalogue just this week as I thought that maybe there'd
be more info in it (like low ESR...) but there isn't. I haven't ordered from
them yet. Last time, in desperation I got caps from a mate in the US who got
them from badcaps.net and sent them on to NZ. At least I could be sure with
those that they *were* low ESR.

So, you linked a pana FC and a pana FM. Are both of those series low ESR?
Can I safely order parts from those ranges of capacitors?

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)


  #26  
Old August 31st 08, 09:49 AM posted to alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
Mike Tomlinson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 431
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

In article , ~misfit~
writes

So, you linked a pana FC and a pana FM. Are both of those series low ESR?


Yes.

Can I safely order parts from those ranges of capacitors?


Yes.

--
(\__/) Bunny says NO to Windows Vista!
(='.'=) http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut00...ista_cost.html
(")_(") http://www.cypherpunks.to/~peter/vista.pdf


  #27  
Old September 5th 08, 12:44 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 330
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

[snip all]

I'm currently totally sidetracked attempting to set myself up with a
comprehensive vegetable garden. I'm sick of paying huge amounts for rubbish
vegetables. Therefore any and all monies I have 'spare' are being funneled
into the growing project. Consequently this project has been put on the
back-burner due to lack of funds.

When I've completed the construction of my raised-bed gardens and have cash
I'll have a go at these cards and post the results. Thanks to all who
weighed in with advice.
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)


  #28  
Old September 5th 08, 03:49 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
kony
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,416
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 23:44:12 +1200, "~misfit~"
wrote:

[snip all]

I'm currently totally sidetracked attempting to set myself up with a
comprehensive vegetable garden. I'm sick of paying huge amounts for rubbish
vegetables. Therefore any and all monies I have 'spare' are being funneled
into the growing project. Consequently this project has been put on the
back-burner due to lack of funds.


It's ironic that you wrote this now, my minimal vegetable
garden is producing peak yields for the year, I picked more
veggies yesterday than any other day of the season. I
don't have the space for enough crops to avoid buying
produce though, nor the climate.

  #29  
Old September 6th 08, 01:58 PM posted to alt.comp.hardware,alt.comp.periphs.videocards.nvidia
~misfit~[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 330
Default Capacitors on graphics cards...

Somewhere on teh intarweb "kony" typed:
On Fri, 5 Sep 2008 23:44:12 +1200, "~misfit~"
wrote:

[snip all]

I'm currently totally sidetracked attempting to set myself up with a
comprehensive vegetable garden. I'm sick of paying huge amounts for
rubbish vegetables. Therefore any and all monies I have 'spare' are
being funneled into the growing project. Consequently this project
has been put on the back-burner due to lack of funds.


It's ironic that you wrote this now, my minimal vegetable
garden is producing peak yields for the year, I picked more
veggies yesterday than any other day of the season.


Yeah, we're at opposite end of the growing season. I'm trying to get
tothestage you're at. ;-)

I
don't have the space for enough crops to avoid buying
produce though, nor the climate.


I may have a better climate. From what I can tell I should be able to
produce veggies all year round, just different ones at different times. I
can live with 'seasonal', it makes food more interesting.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

DISCLAIMER: If you find a posting or message from me
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please ignore it.
If you don't know how to ignore a posting, complain to
me and I will be only too happy to demonstrate... ;-)


 




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