[OT] New motherboard not seeing large hard drive correctly

On 2013-05-21 14:40, Paul wrote:
Rhino wrote:
On 2013-05-13 06:37, Kingpin wrote:


First step is to dump XP in favour of Windows 7 or 8. It is much
more secure.

Next, a 3 TB drive should be set up with GPT, an acronym for GUID
partition table. An
easier way is to put the big drive in an external USB case.

Tell me more.

I've been wondering if my 3TB drive would be better situated in an
external case now that I have both a desktop and a laptop that might
both like to access the data on the large drive.

But I'm not sure what the implications would be. Would moving the
drive to an external case mean that the data would be visible to both
computers via USB WITHOUT having to reformat the drive in any way? I
don't have a backup of the data on the large drive and re-acquiring
the data would be a huge undertaking. (And yes, I know I should have a
backup but I just can't afford it.)

The laptop is already running Win8. Upgrading the desktop to Win7 or
Win8 might well be a lot easier if that big hard drive was off in its
own case as long as I could still get at the data from both computers.
I've been wondering for a while what the implication of the OS upgrade
would be on the 3TB drive.


The problem you'd have, is switching from Acronis Extended Capacity Manager
operating mode, to straight-forward GPT (GUID partition table). If you
had a second large drive, to hold the files while fooling around, it
would be a lot simpler. It may also help, if the 3 TB isn't full. If
it is full of files (all three partitions are full), there would be no
wiggle room for re-organizing the storage on it (thus requiring a
second disk). If it was sparsely filled, you may be able to move stuff
around enough, such that nothing is present above 2.2TB, then use a
partition manager, to attempt a transition from 2.2TB MBR based,
to 3.0TB GPT based. Once switched over to GPT, you no longer can access
it from WinXP, but you can from the other OSes. And once it is GPT, you
can resize it from 2.2TB to 3.0TB, and gain access to all the room again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table

In the other thread though, we're still discussing why your upper partition
is broken, and I presented a theory there. The theory I have, is that
the new
NVidia Southbridge ports (RAID capable), use metadata, and the driver
shrinks
the claimed size of the first (physical) disk drive. And that prevents
attempts
to read the very end of the second partition. While the drive was on the
Asus M3A motherboard, the first disk was 2.2TB, whereas, while it is
sitting on the NVidia port, it is 2.199 TB. And that claimed size,
prevents reading a tiny region near the end (0.001TB hidden). That's
the basic concept.

Yes I read your theory and just finished a lengthy reply to it.

This is my representation of what happens, by switching over to the Nvidia.
This would not have happened, if the second partition had not been
extended,
to the very end of the physical space. (Leaving a few cylinders would
likely
have been enough.)

NVidia preventing access to the very end of the partition -----+
Not sure if any metadata is written or not, in the JBOD case. |
v
+------+-----+-----------------------+------------------------+--------+
| MBR | gap | 746GB NTFS partition | 1453GB NTFS partition |metadata|
+------+-----+-----------------------+------------------------+--------+

+------+------+-------+-----------------------+
| gap | MBR | gap | 746GB NTFS partition |
+------+------+-------+-----------------------+

Anyway, I did an experiment, where I was able to move the extended capacity
746GB, down to a lower partition, and rescue the files while the data
was down there (using Linux LiveCD). But that requires enough space, for
it to work. Without space, you need a second big drive of some sort.

Your theory sounds reasonable enough to me but I don't know a whole lot
about how all this partitioning stuff works. Every time I start to think
I'm understanding how drives are organized, the next generation of OSes
and space management comes along and suddenly it's a whole new ball game.


Even borrowing or renting a drive would be good enough, while
doing recovery. You could secure erase it, or zero it, when
you're finished.

That's a novel idea. I've never heard of hard disk rentals but maybe I
could manage something like that. Maybe Canada Computers would do
something like that. I could ask around. We're talking about making that
an external drive, right? The computer already has 3 SATA hard drives
and a SATA DVD burner. I assume the external drive would plug in via USB.

As for the NVidia problem, moving the drive to a non-NVidia computer,
installing the virtual driver software, may be enough to see all
three partitions. Of course, once you install the virtual driver
from Acronis, you can't completely clean it from the OS. If you
do this to someone else's computer (install the following package),
you'd want to back up their C: partition, so you can undo the
install of it later. You do the backup of C:, before running this
installer (virtualdisksetup.msi file inside the ZIP). That would be
my advice. Easier than trying to clean it up with Regedit and a
pair of tweezers afterwards :-)

http://kb.acronis.com/system/files/c...ldisksetup.zip


If I were to successfully rent a 3 TB external drive and copy my data to
it, what would happen next? Clearly, I need to get that data back on to
my own 3 TB drive eventually. Would I need to use a different program to
partition the drive, then copy the data back?

I wouldn't be adverse to upgrading to Win7 or Win8, although it would be
a challenge to come up with the money. Maybe I should get an external
closure for my own drive at the same time to make it accessible to both
the desktop and laptop going forward. Or go with this GPT scheme which
is presumably still usable in Win7 and Win8 (and hopefully whatever
follows Win8).

--
Rhino

Rhino wrote:
On 2013-05-21 14:40, Paul wrote:
Rhino wrote:
On 2013-05-13 06:37, Kingpin wrote:


First step is to dump XP in favour of Windows 7 or 8. It is much
more secure.

Next, a 3 TB drive should be set up with GPT, an acronym for GUID
partition table. An
easier way is to put the big drive in an external USB case.

Tell me more.

I've been wondering if my 3TB drive would be better situated in an
external case now that I have both a desktop and a laptop that might
both like to access the data on the large drive.

But I'm not sure what the implications would be. Would moving the
drive to an external case mean that the data would be visible to both
computers via USB WITHOUT having to reformat the drive in any way? I
don't have a backup of the data on the large drive and re-acquiring
the data would be a huge undertaking. (And yes, I know I should have a
backup but I just can't afford it.)

The laptop is already running Win8. Upgrading the desktop to Win7 or
Win8 might well be a lot easier if that big hard drive was off in its
own case as long as I could still get at the data from both computers.
I've been wondering for a while what the implication of the OS upgrade
would be on the 3TB drive.


The problem you'd have, is switching from Acronis Extended Capacity
Manager
operating mode, to straight-forward GPT (GUID partition table). If you
had a second large drive, to hold the files while fooling around, it
would be a lot simpler. It may also help, if the 3 TB isn't full. If
it is full of files (all three partitions are full), there would be no
wiggle room for re-organizing the storage on it (thus requiring a
second disk). If it was sparsely filled, you may be able to move stuff
around enough, such that nothing is present above 2.2TB, then use a
partition manager, to attempt a transition from 2.2TB MBR based,
to 3.0TB GPT based. Once switched over to GPT, you no longer can access
it from WinXP, but you can from the other OSes. And once it is GPT, you
can resize it from 2.2TB to 3.0TB, and gain access to all the room again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table

In the other thread though, we're still discussing why your upper
partition
is broken, and I presented a theory there. The theory I have, is that
the new
NVidia Southbridge ports (RAID capable), use metadata, and the driver
shrinks
the claimed size of the first (physical) disk drive. And that prevents
attempts
to read the very end of the second partition. While the drive was on the
Asus M3A motherboard, the first disk was 2.2TB, whereas, while it is
sitting on the NVidia port, it is 2.199 TB. And that claimed size,
prevents reading a tiny region near the end (0.001TB hidden). That's
the basic concept.

Yes I read your theory and just finished a lengthy reply to it.

This is my representation of what happens, by switching over to the
Nvidia.
This would not have happened, if the second partition had not been
extended,
to the very end of the physical space. (Leaving a few cylinders would
likely
have been enough.)

NVidia preventing access to the very end of the partition -----+
Not sure if any metadata is written or not, in the JBOD case. |
v
+------+-----+-----------------------+------------------------+--------+
| MBR | gap | 746GB NTFS partition | 1453GB NTFS partition |metadata|
+------+-----+-----------------------+------------------------+--------+

+------+------+-------+-----------------------+
| gap | MBR | gap | 746GB NTFS partition |
+------+------+-------+-----------------------+

Anyway, I did an experiment, where I was able to move the extended
capacity
746GB, down to a lower partition, and rescue the files while the data
was down there (using Linux LiveCD). But that requires enough space, for
it to work. Without space, you need a second big drive of some sort.

Your theory sounds reasonable enough to me but I don't know a whole lot
about how all this partitioning stuff works. Every time I start to think
I'm understanding how drives are organized, the next generation of OSes
and space management comes along and suddenly it's a whole new ball game.


Even borrowing or renting a drive would be good enough, while
doing recovery. You could secure erase it, or zero it, when
you're finished.

That's a novel idea. I've never heard of hard disk rentals but maybe I
could manage something like that. Maybe Canada Computers would do
something like that. I could ask around. We're talking about making that
an external drive, right? The computer already has 3 SATA hard drives
and a SATA DVD burner. I assume the external drive would plug in via USB.

As for the NVidia problem, moving the drive to a non-NVidia computer,
installing the virtual driver software, may be enough to see all
three partitions. Of course, once you install the virtual driver
from Acronis, you can't completely clean it from the OS. If you
do this to someone else's computer (install the following package),
you'd want to back up their C: partition, so you can undo the
install of it later. You do the backup of C:, before running this
installer (virtualdisksetup.msi file inside the ZIP). That would be
my advice. Easier than trying to clean it up with Regedit and a
pair of tweezers afterwards :-)

http://kb.acronis.com/system/files/c...ldisksetup.zip



If I were to successfully rent a 3 TB external drive and copy my data to
it, what would happen next? Clearly, I need to get that data back on to
my own 3 TB drive eventually. Would I need to use a different program to
partition the drive, then copy the data back?

I wouldn't be adverse to upgrading to Win7 or Win8, although it would be
a challenge to come up with the money. Maybe I should get an external
closure for my own drive at the same time to make it accessible to both
the desktop and laptop going forward. Or go with this GPT scheme which
is presumably still usable in Win7 and Win8 (and hopefully whatever
follows Win8).


I think you know the options by now.

1) Old OS in picture, stick with Acronis Extended Capacity Manager.
Either that, or simply bid goodbye to the upper 746GB or so.
You and I both have WinXP, and Acronis might be the only way to
keep all the OSes happy (+/- whatever screw-ups Acronis promotes
in the process - I'm not all that excited about this solution).

2) If all OSes support GPT, make rental disk GPT, copy data as you see
fit, then reformat the original disk and make it GPT. Copy the data
back. Access via more modern OSes as a result.

3) I can't say what will happen, if you stick the 3TB in a USB enclosure.
It's possible the filter driver will still install itself. I don't
really understand what triggers that driver to install in the first
place. On my machine, the moldy old Acronis driver seems to be able
to "shim" any new drive I connect to the computer. Maybe it will do
that for a USB connected computer ? What the Acronis driver doesn't
seem to be able to do, is replace another Acronis driver.

If you already have the USB enclosure, you can just try moving the 3TB
into the enclosure and see what happens.

As for testing my USB enclosure here, I'll have to think about
what way I could test, that wouldn't take too many hours of work.
Any time big disks are involved, some step always stretches into
hours. (I don't really want to have to load that Acronis driver
on any other computers, because it's a bitch to remove. That means
using a clean OS of some sort.)

If you have any kind of PCI or PCI Express SATA card, that might
be sufficient to solve the "NVidia logjam". You'd want to make sure
it wasn't one of those VIA "SATA 150 only" cards... I don't have
any separate SATA cards here, unfortunately. So no test results for them.

It's either that, or figure out some way to run the Nvidia
ports in "IDE emulation mode", where the stupid thing doesn't
clip off the top of the 2.2TB zone. If you could connect the
disk, even temporarily, to some other non-NVidia solution,
you could use a partition manager to resize the broken partition.
That would work, because the non-NVidia computer would not be
clipping the partition. Then, by shrinking the upper partition,
and moving the end so its not right up against the 2.2TB boundary,
you could then safely move the 3TB drive back to your NVidia motherboard.
Then it would work OK.

+------+-----+-----------------------+----------------------+-+--------+
| MBR | gap | 746GB NTFS partition | 1450GB NTFS partition| |metadata|
+------+-----+-----------------------+----------------------+-+--------+

Paul