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routers and firewalls
I've read that hardware firewalls are found in routers and that they are in
some ways better than software firewalls. I really have no need for a router, per se, but I wouldn't mind replacing ZoneAlarm if it is the thing to do. But I've also read that software and hardware firewalls have completely different effects! If someone can offer a nutshell, plain English explanation of this stuff I'd like to hear it. Thanks -- JimL |
#2
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routers and firewalls
"JimL" wrote in message
... I've read that hardware firewalls are found in routers and that they are in some ways better than software firewalls. I really have no need for a router, per se, but I wouldn't mind replacing ZoneAlarm if it is the thing to do. But I've also read that software and hardware firewalls have completely different effects! If someone can offer a nutshell, plain English explanation of this stuff I'd like to hear it. Thanks -- JimL Jim The problem with software firewalls is they are a bunch of bits in memory. Writing data to the right bits of memory can compromise such a software firewall. Because a PC is a general purpose machine it has a wide range of vectors that may make that possible. Hardware firewalls on the other hand are very specialised and it's kinda hard to alter bits burnt into ROM. Properly running firewalls only do one thing : examine packets of data coming in or out and allow / block them based on a set of rules. i.e. the 'effect' is exactly the same. Handing firewall duties over to another device allso means your PC is not wasting resources running a firewall in the background. best Paul. |
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routers and firewalls
On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:18:06 -0400, "JimL"
wrote: I've read that hardware firewalls are found in routers and that they are in some ways better than software firewalls. I really have no need for a router, per se, but I wouldn't mind replacing ZoneAlarm if it is the thing to do. But I've also read that software and hardware firewalls have completely different effects! If someone can offer a nutshell, plain English explanation of this stuff I'd like to hear it. Thanks First, what is it you hope to gain in changing from your present configuration? If you find your security has been breached, how did it happen as that is a hole to close. The major advantage of a hardware firewall is that it does not expose a (windows) PC directly to the internet. It also offloads the work the PC might have to do, even more work if the PC is connected through USB to a modem rather than ethernet. Often hardware firewalls in routers, the router settings themselves are different than what a typical software firewall's settings allow for. Hardware firewalls often have settings to block domains, QOS, disabling or limiting bandwidth, rules for allowed host connections, and more. Software firewalls on the other hand often do one important thing hardware firewalls do not, they can block outgoing connections on a per-program basis. For example, if your system were compromised, infected with malware that was trying to phone home to send your data or download more malware and install it, a hardware firewall won't necessarily (actually won't usually) stop the outgoing connection nor the incoming data unless you happened to have the source domain on the router's block list or a small inclusion list and a deny-rest (of wan IPs) rule. A software firewall on the other hand will not allow the malware the connection unless you manually approve the connection. There are exceptions such as browser BHOs, where you had already given permission for the browser to make a conneciton and the malware piggybacks on the brower connection to send the data. So in some cases the firewall alone is not enough, or more attention needs paid to closing holes and safe practices as a prevention rather than damage control. The safest systems would be behind a hardware firewall and have a software firewall, but how much effort or expense to put into it can depend on the exposure, risk level the system sees. For example someone who surfs video websites that require new codec installations (far too often a virus in disguise), those who use warez software, or browse shady websites will have far more browser related risks, but many seemingly kosher websites may themselves become compromised and act as servers for malware so there is no 100% safe surfing practice besides making backups before there are any infections and shutting down a system's internet connection the moment a compromise has been detected (after other prudent measures like antivirus software). Since most people are not adept enough nor want to spend the time extensively configuring a software firewall, adding an inexpensive router is a very good idea. For those who are adept enough, willing to spend the time with a software firewall, they obviously value security more and so again an inexpensive router firewall is a nice insulating layer for the money it costs. I see little reason not to have a router firewall on a home network, even if you leave it set to all default values. If software were entirely secure and reliable would you even need a firewall at all? Certainly it is not entirely secure or bug -free but by moving core logic to a simplifed firmware in a router, there are far fewer chances for bugs and windows itself becoming infected can easily allow crashing of portions of OS, or software firewalls, or software settings changed that make them ineffective. There is a third, most effective compromise. Instead of a hardware firewall in a router or a software firewall running on the client, setting up a separate computer running a less vulnerable OS than windows and that system running a more fully configurable router and firewall software packages. This option takes the most time, uses the most space and electricity, but by far allows the most comprehensive configuration. Back to my opening statement, knowing these things has no point unless you have a specific need that is thus far unaddressed. None of the above is really applicable to any situation because either is a security measure but there is no insecurity unless there is a hole of some sort, even if that hole is a child that opens every email attachment that comes in or a war driver scanning your wifi network. |
#4
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routers and firewalls
"PeeCee" wrote in message
... "JimL" wrote in message ... I've read that hardware firewalls are found in routers and that they are in some ways better than software firewalls. I really have no need for a router, per se, but I wouldn't mind replacing ZoneAlarm if it is the thing to do. But I've also read that software and hardware firewalls have completely different effects! If someone can offer a nutshell, plain English explanation of this stuff I'd like to hear it. Thanks -- JimL Jim The problem with software firewalls is they are a bunch of bits in memory. Writing data to the right bits of memory can compromise such a software firewall. Because a PC is a general purpose machine it has a wide range of vectors that may make that possible. Hardware firewalls on the other hand are very specialised and it's kinda hard to alter bits burnt into ROM. Properly running firewalls only do one thing : examine packets of data coming in or out and allow / block them based on a set of rules. i.e. the 'effect' is exactly the same. Handing firewall duties over to another device allso means your PC is not wasting resources running a firewall in the background. best Paul. Thanks -- JimL |
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routers and firewalls
"kony" wrote in message
... On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:18:06 -0400, "JimL" wrote: Thanks for what looks _to me_ like a good overview of firewalls. Back to my opening statement, knowing these things has no point unless you have a specific need that is thus far unaddressed. Perhaps you are forgetting one "point" in your search for specifics - the future. And at my house, "not knowing" about a specific need is definitely not the same as "not having" a specific need. Having had no "holes" in the past (if indeed I have not) doesn't seem like much of a guarantee for what might happen tommorrow. I've very recently switched from dial-up to cable modem. Seems to me the very quantity of events inherent in a high-speed internet connection as compared to dial-up makes firewalls a more important topic. Since I got the cable modem connection I have thought about and worked on several things I believe I should think about and work on in an effort to head off what _might_ happen from here on. Looking ahead seems to me to be only common sense. But it doesn't seem to set well with many here who demand that I describe a problem that _IS_ not a problem that _might_ be. But that won't stop me from thinking about tomorrow's possible issues. Specifically, as I thought about high speed internet issues, firewalls came to mind. (Perhaps I'm a worry wort, but I doubt I'll EVER leave myself connected 24/7, no matter how good I think my protection is.) It looks to me like inviting trouble when I don't have to. So not knowing much of anything about hardware firewalls I decided to ask, given the possibility that more traffic might mean more problems. Thanks -- JimL |
#6
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routers and firewalls
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:18:17 -0400, "JimL"
wrote: "kony" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:18:06 -0400, "JimL" wrote: Thanks for what looks _to me_ like a good overview of firewalls. Back to my opening statement, knowing these things has no point unless you have a specific need that is thus far unaddressed. Perhaps you are forgetting one "point" in your search for specifics - the future. And at my house, "not knowing" about a specific need is definitely not the same as "not having" a specific need. Having had no "holes" in the past (if indeed I have not) doesn't seem like much of a guarantee for what might happen tommorrow. I've very recently switched from dial-up to cable modem. Seems to me the very quantity of events inherent in a high-speed internet connection as compared to dial-up makes firewalls a more important topic. Fair enough, but you hadn't mentioned this yet unless I overlooked it. Since I got the cable modem connection I have thought about and worked on several things I believe I should think about and work on in an effort to head off what _might_ happen from here on. Looking ahead seems to me to be only common sense. But it doesn't seem to set well with many here who demand that I describe a problem that _IS_ not a problem that _might_ be. But that won't stop me from thinking about tomorrow's possible issues. Use a router. Wifi even better. With this option in the future you can add PCs as you wish, not depending on any one for the internet connection, allowing for wireless laptop or distant client use w/o stringing wire, change the operating system and be online without concern about having installed the firewall yet. Specifically, as I thought about high speed internet issues, firewalls came to mind. (Perhaps I'm a worry wort, but I doubt I'll EVER leave myself connected 24/7, no matter how good I think my protection is.) It looks to me like inviting trouble when I don't have to. So not knowing much of anything about hardware firewalls I decided to ask, given the possibility that more traffic might mean more problems. Most people with cable internet access are likely to be connected 24/7, and are safe doing so if they have a router between their PC and the internet. So long as a windows box with open ports isn't sitting exposed to the internet, letting it sit online unused isn't much of a risk, the risk is far moreso that of actively visiting a hostile website or breached one delivering rogue malware, of opening an infected email on a vulnerable client, inserting an infected USB thumbdrive with autoplay enabled, and other actively undertaken activities. In other words, either it is something the user initiates which gets them infected or an external thread is doing a port scan or wifi survey. For now I will ignore the wifi since your topic is about firewalls. Since the router is not offering services other than routing, there is very little possiblity of exploitation. It is not impossible but let's face it, windows is targeted far more than any other OS and any OS is targeted far more than specific router models among the myriad possible routers and firmwares that exist in the world. As mentioned in my prior reply, a software firewall does add one feature that's great for some, that it allows per-application denial of wan/internet access. If you feel that is important to have, I recommend running both a software firewall that supports it (you mentioned Zonealarm IIRC, which does support it), and a router with it's inherant firewalling. The better question is what does it hurt. They are inexpensive, an additional layer of security, allow for expansion. Downside is the ~$20 cost, a few cubic inches of space it takes up and maybe a half dozen watts of power consumed on average for consumer models. A router in it's default configuration is often ready to use out of the box except if it supports wifi you might want to unscrew the antenna to eliminate any usable range until security settings for wifi are set... though some might call that paranoid but knowing how easy it is to put off doing things or get busy doing something else, having the antennan off until wifi is secure from the beginning eliminates that possibility, assuming the router has only an external antenna not one internal but again I am drifting into a different topic than asked about. |
#7
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routers and firewalls
"kony" wrote in message
... On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:18:17 -0400, "JimL" wrote: "kony" wrote in message . .. On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:18:06 -0400, "JimL" wrote: Thanks for what looks _to me_ like a good overview of firewalls. Back to my opening statement, knowing these things has no point unless you have a specific need that is thus far unaddressed. Perhaps you are forgetting one "point" in your search for specifics - the future. And at my house, "not knowing" about a specific need is definitely not the same as "not having" a specific need. Having had no "holes" in the past (if indeed I have not) doesn't seem like much of a guarantee for what might happen tommorrow. I've very recently switched from dial-up to cable modem. Seems to me the very quantity of events inherent in a high-speed internet connection as compared to dial-up makes firewalls a more important topic. Fair enough, but you hadn't mentioned this yet unless I overlooked it. Since I got the cable modem connection I have thought about and worked on several things I believe I should think about and work on in an effort to head off what _might_ happen from here on. Looking ahead seems to me to be only common sense. But it doesn't seem to set well with many here who demand that I describe a problem that _IS_ not a problem that _might_ be. But that won't stop me from thinking about tomorrow's possible issues. Use a router. Wifi even better. With this option in the future you can add PCs as you wish, not depending on any one for the internet connection, allowing for wireless laptop or distant client use w/o stringing wire, change the operating system and be online without concern about having installed the firewall yet. Specifically, as I thought about high speed internet issues, firewalls came to mind. (Perhaps I'm a worry wort, but I doubt I'll EVER leave myself connected 24/7, no matter how good I think my protection is.) It looks to me like inviting trouble when I don't have to. So not knowing much of anything about hardware firewalls I decided to ask, given the possibility that more traffic might mean more problems. Most people with cable internet access are likely to be connected 24/7, and are safe doing so if they have a router between their PC and the internet. So long as a windows box with open ports isn't sitting exposed to the internet, letting it sit online unused isn't much of a risk, the risk is far moreso that of actively visiting a hostile website or breached one delivering rogue malware, of opening an infected email on a vulnerable client, inserting an infected USB thumbdrive with autoplay enabled, and other actively undertaken activities. In other words, either it is something the user initiates which gets them infected or an external thread is doing a port scan or wifi survey. For now I will ignore the wifi since your topic is about firewalls. Since the router is not offering services other than routing, there is very little possiblity of exploitation. It is not impossible but let's face it, windows is targeted far more than any other OS and any OS is targeted far more than specific router models among the myriad possible routers and firmwares that exist in the world. As mentioned in my prior reply, a software firewall does add one feature that's great for some, that it allows per-application denial of wan/internet access. If you feel that is important to have, I recommend running both a software firewall that supports it (you mentioned Zonealarm IIRC, which does support it), and a router with it's inherant firewalling. The better question is what does it hurt. They are inexpensive, an additional layer of security, allow for expansion. Downside is the ~$20 cost, a few cubic inches of space it takes up and maybe a half dozen watts of power consumed on average for consumer models. A router in it's default configuration is often ready to use out of the box except if it supports wifi you might want to unscrew the antenna to eliminate any usable range until security settings for wifi are set... though some might call that paranoid but knowing how easy it is to put off doing things or get busy doing something else, having the antennan off until wifi is secure from the beginning eliminates that possibility, assuming the router has only an external antenna not one internal but again I am drifting into a different topic than asked about. Again a good post from my point of view. As for "what does it hurt," I don't know. You refer to "very little risk." That isn't the same as none. I noticed that in about a year and a half ZA logged over 140,000 blocked access attempts on dial-up. Apparently there are "scanners" just searching for a chance to make trouble. And broadband presents the potential for even greater numbers of scans. Plus I put all of my computer stuff on switching control and shut them down overnight if for no more reason than eliminating vampire electrical consumption. Using old machines as I do it makes sense to me to cut down on wear and tear. Hardware firewall. You're kind of preaching to the choir there. I've been trying to get a handle on whether to go wireless. (If it turns out it doesn't even work where I want it, I could, as you suggest, just remove the antennas.) You mention ~$20 in cost. I'd guess that if one were concerned about reliability the figure would be somewhat higher. Thanks -- JimL |
#8
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routers and firewalls
"kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:18:17 -0400, "JimL" wrote: "kony" wrote in message . .. On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:18:06 -0400, "JimL" wrote: Thanks for what looks _to me_ like a good overview of firewalls. Back to my opening statement, knowing these things has no point unless you have a specific need that is thus far unaddressed. Perhaps you are forgetting one "point" in your search for specifics - the future. And at my house, "not knowing" about a specific need is definitely not the same as "not having" a specific need. Having had no "holes" in the past (if indeed I have not) doesn't seem like much of a guarantee for what might happen tommorrow. I've very recently switched from dial-up to cable modem. Seems to me the very quantity of events inherent in a high-speed internet connection as compared to dial-up makes firewalls a more important topic. Fair enough, but you hadn't mentioned this yet unless I overlooked it. Since I got the cable modem connection I have thought about and worked on several things I believe I should think about and work on in an effort to head off what _might_ happen from here on. Looking ahead seems to me to be only common sense. But it doesn't seem to set well with many here who demand that I describe a problem that _IS_ not a problem that _might_ be. But that won't stop me from thinking about tomorrow's possible issues. Use a router. Wifi even better. With this option in the future you can add PCs as you wish, not depending on any one for the internet connection, allowing for wireless laptop or distant client use w/o stringing wire, change the operating system and be online without concern about having installed the firewall yet. Specifically, as I thought about high speed internet issues, firewalls came to mind. (Perhaps I'm a worry wort, but I doubt I'll EVER leave myself connected 24/7, no matter how good I think my protection is.) It looks to me like inviting trouble when I don't have to. So not knowing much of anything about hardware firewalls I decided to ask, given the possibility that more traffic might mean more problems. Most people with cable internet access are likely to be connected 24/7, and are safe doing so if they have a router between their PC and the internet. So long as a windows box with open ports isn't sitting exposed to the internet, letting it sit online unused isn't much of a risk, the risk is far moreso that of actively visiting a hostile website or breached one delivering rogue malware, of opening an infected email on a vulnerable client, inserting an infected USB thumbdrive with autoplay enabled, and other actively undertaken activities. In other words, either it is something the user initiates which gets them infected or an external thread is doing a port scan or wifi survey. For now I will ignore the wifi since your topic is about firewalls. Since the router is not offering services other than routing, there is very little possiblity of exploitation. It is not impossible but let's face it, windows is targeted far more than any other OS and any OS is targeted far more than specific router models among the myriad possible routers and firmwares that exist in the world. As mentioned in my prior reply, a software firewall does add one feature that's great for some, that it allows per-application denial of wan/internet access. If you feel that is important to have, I recommend running both a software firewall that supports it (you mentioned Zonealarm IIRC, which does support it), and a router with it's inherant firewalling. The better question is what does it hurt. They are inexpensive, an additional layer of security, allow for expansion. Downside is the ~$20 cost, a few cubic inches of space it takes up and maybe a half dozen watts of power consumed on average for consumer models. A router in it's default configuration is often ready to use out of the box except if it supports wifi you might want to unscrew the antenna to eliminate any usable range until security settings for wifi are set... though some might call that paranoid but knowing how easy it is to put off doing things or get busy doing something else, having the antennan off until wifi is secure from the beginning eliminates that possibility, assuming the router has only an external antenna not one internal but again I am drifting into a different topic than asked about. I replaced my original DSL modem with one that has a WiFi function, and that put the WiFi on the modem side of my existing router. Therefor, the router's firewall protects my wired LAN from both the internet and WiFi. This means that my mobile WiFi enabled devices have no access to my LAN, but they do have access to the internet. With no real wireless network setup, the mobile devices can't connect to each other. With no bridge setup the computers on the LAN have no access to the mobile devices, nor is it open to the wireless environment. So, I just leave the WiFi open and anyone or any wifi device, in range can connect to the internet through my DSL modem. While this could expose me to the results of any mischief, that a very nearby operator might effect using my DSL connection, it does not expose my LAN. Luck; Ken |
#9
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routers and firewalls
"Ken Maltby" wrote in message
... "kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:18:17 -0400, "JimL" wrote: "kony" wrote in message ... On Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:18:06 -0400, "JimL" wrote: Thanks for what looks _to me_ like a good overview of firewalls. Back to my opening statement, knowing these things has no point unless you have a specific need that is thus far unaddressed. Perhaps you are forgetting one "point" in your search for specifics - the future. And at my house, "not knowing" about a specific need is definitely not the same as "not having" a specific need. Having had no "holes" in the past (if indeed I have not) doesn't seem like much of a guarantee for what might happen tommorrow. I've very recently switched from dial-up to cable modem. Seems to me the very quantity of events inherent in a high-speed internet connection as compared to dial-up makes firewalls a more important topic. Fair enough, but you hadn't mentioned this yet unless I overlooked it. Since I got the cable modem connection I have thought about and worked on several things I believe I should think about and work on in an effort to head off what _might_ happen from here on. Looking ahead seems to me to be only common sense. But it doesn't seem to set well with many here who demand that I describe a problem that _IS_ not a problem that _might_ be. But that won't stop me from thinking about tomorrow's possible issues. Use a router. Wifi even better. With this option in the future you can add PCs as you wish, not depending on any one for the internet connection, allowing for wireless laptop or distant client use w/o stringing wire, change the operating system and be online without concern about having installed the firewall yet. Specifically, as I thought about high speed internet issues, firewalls came to mind. (Perhaps I'm a worry wort, but I doubt I'll EVER leave myself connected 24/7, no matter how good I think my protection is.) It looks to me like inviting trouble when I don't have to. So not knowing much of anything about hardware firewalls I decided to ask, given the possibility that more traffic might mean more problems. Most people with cable internet access are likely to be connected 24/7, and are safe doing so if they have a router between their PC and the internet. So long as a windows box with open ports isn't sitting exposed to the internet, letting it sit online unused isn't much of a risk, the risk is far moreso that of actively visiting a hostile website or breached one delivering rogue malware, of opening an infected email on a vulnerable client, inserting an infected USB thumbdrive with autoplay enabled, and other actively undertaken activities. In other words, either it is something the user initiates which gets them infected or an external thread is doing a port scan or wifi survey. For now I will ignore the wifi since your topic is about firewalls. Since the router is not offering services other than routing, there is very little possiblity of exploitation. It is not impossible but let's face it, windows is targeted far more than any other OS and any OS is targeted far more than specific router models among the myriad possible routers and firmwares that exist in the world. As mentioned in my prior reply, a software firewall does add one feature that's great for some, that it allows per-application denial of wan/internet access. If you feel that is important to have, I recommend running both a software firewall that supports it (you mentioned Zonealarm IIRC, which does support it), and a router with it's inherant firewalling. The better question is what does it hurt. They are inexpensive, an additional layer of security, allow for expansion. Downside is the ~$20 cost, a few cubic inches of space it takes up and maybe a half dozen watts of power consumed on average for consumer models. A router in it's default configuration is often ready to use out of the box except if it supports wifi you might want to unscrew the antenna to eliminate any usable range until security settings for wifi are set... though some might call that paranoid but knowing how easy it is to put off doing things or get busy doing something else, having the antennan off until wifi is secure from the beginning eliminates that possibility, assuming the router has only an external antenna not one internal but again I am drifting into a different topic than asked about. I replaced my original DSL modem with one that has a WiFi function, and that put the WiFi on the modem side of my existing router. Therefor, the router's firewall protects my wired LAN from both the internet and WiFi. This means that my mobile WiFi enabled devices have no access to my LAN, but they do have access to the internet. With no real wireless network setup, the mobile devices can't connect to each other. With no bridge setup the computers on the LAN have no access to the mobile devices, nor is it open to the wireless environment. So, I just leave the WiFi open and anyone or any wifi device, in range can connect to the internet through my DSL modem. While this could expose me to the results of any mischief, that a very nearby operator might effect using my DSL connection, it does not expose my LAN. Luck; Ken Hm, so you sort of have both a WAN and a LAN set up on opposite sides of a firewall. With a wireless router ... I'd guess there are different configurations. Assumedly all routers would have wire ports. I don't know "where" the wireless would be. "Parallel" with the LAN ports? I guess my lone laptop would be protected from the internet but open to drive-by access no matter if I were running wired or wireless as long as the antennas were in place? Am I confused or diffused? Thanks -- JimL |
#10
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routers and firewalls
On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:43:14 -0400, "JimL"
wrote: Again a good post from my point of view. As for "what does it hurt," I don't know. You refer to "very little risk." That isn't the same as none. I noticed that in about a year and a half ZA logged over 140,000 blocked access attempts on dial-up. Apparently there are "scanners" just searching for a chance to make trouble. And broadband presents the potential for even greater numbers of scans. Plus I put all of my computer stuff on switching control and shut them down overnight if for no more reason than eliminating vampire electrical consumption. Using old machines as I do it makes sense to me to cut down on wear and tear. Hardware firewall. You're kind of preaching to the choir there. I've been trying to get a handle on whether to go wireless. (If it turns out it doesn't even work where I want it, I could, as you suggest, just remove the antennas.) You mention ~$20 in cost. I'd guess that if one were concerned about reliability the figure would be somewhat higher. Thanks Higher cost buys more bells and whistles, or a newer 11.x standard. "Some" low cost consumer routers have insufficient airflow due to their passive design and minimal air vents in conjunction with use of electrolytic capacitors, but if that is the situation the casing can be popped open and a few more vent holes drilled... I do this routinely on budget routers that lack fans, but some would prefer to just wait it out and replace a router when it fails, if it remains stable until then. Ultimately the wifi spec you select depends on your ISP plan, it's peak throughput, or if you need to share large files with systems only wifi connected. 802.11g exceeds the throughput of most US ISPs, and allows streaming HD video with good compression. If you have more demanding uses you have to consider those as well... 100Mb ethernet is faster than even 802.11n in practice, and I find 100Mb ethernet too slow for my needs with a client:fileserver lan setup, but buying for the future if you don't need this yet is probably more costly than waiting it out till you need more than basic interconnectivity. The suggestion to take antennas off was just preliminary, most any decent router also lets you disable the wifi access, and/or encrypt and limit it by mac address, taking antenna(s) off just effectively disables wifi till you make any configuration changes you choose to make. Bottom line, if forced to choose between using a router w/firewall or a software firewall and direct modem connection to a windows box, I'd pick the router every time. |
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