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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an
my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer |
#2
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
In article , Bringer
wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...0_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul |
#4
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
In article , Bringer
wrote: (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...r.intel.com/te chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer There is good reason to have a circuit like that, as it prevents burned motherboards. In fact, when I bought my P4B motherboard, I insisted on finding a revision 1.05 board, as that was the first board with the protection circuit in place. In terms of the standards, if all video card manufacturers had followed the rules as defined in the standards in the first place, this circuit would not have been necessary. The circuit protects against "non-compliant" video cards, that have the slots cut in the edge card incorrectly. The fact that your card is keyed universal here, is not the issue. There are many failure modes possible, but most of those would be eliminated by virtue of the fact that your video card works fine in another motherboard. That leaves: 1) Assuming there is an AGP_Warn circuit on the P4C800-E (and I cannot even be sure of that, due to not being able to find the block of circuitry), the defect could be in that circuit. There have been cases before that tended to suggest that was the problem (i.e. motherboards where the first generation Red LED equipped circuit was always lit, implying the circuit tripped for no reason). If a motherboard had an AGP_Warn and it was defective, then possibly no AGP video card would work. If some video cards work and some don't, that leaves... 2) The second potential defect is with the video card itself. The standards say TYPEDET# should be a direct connection to ground. If the video card manufacturer insists on placing a resistor between TYPEDET# and GND on a 1.5V video card, then that is not strictly speaking, compliant with the spec. I am not going to suggest a hack you could attempt, because I don't believe you can afford to blow out both the motherboard and the video card, if it doesn't work. I think if you use your imagination, you can think of that hack. If you are rich and carefree, you could attempt it. Normally, I would recommend taking this up with the video card manufacturer (or get out your ohmmeter). But in the case of PNY, I doubt you'd get a response. TYPEDET# is not intended to be a dynamic signal. It should either be an open circuit with respect to ground, or it should be a short to ground. When it is shorted to ground, it is telling the motherboard that it "prefers to run at AGP 1.5V". The universal keying of your card, means if it runs into a motherboard that only supports 3.3V AGP I/O, it will "tolerate" the situation. In the case of your motherboard, the AGP slot only runs at 1.5V supply voltage, as you can see in the manual. Note - in my description above, there is no mention of 0.8V. The I/O _supply_ pins on a video card are either given 1.5V or 3.3V. The signal pins themselves, can operate at 0.8V, 1.5V, or 3.3V. So, in terms of I/O supply voltage compliance, the TYPEDET# pin only needs to signal whether 1.5V or 3.3V is appropriate. A GPU supplied with a 1.5V I/O supply voltage, can then make 0.8V or 1.5V sized I/O signals, as it desires. Paul |
#5
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
surely you could do a swap somewhere locally?
"Bringer" wrote in message ... (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...r.intel.com/te chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer |
#6
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
Unfortunatly no. Only have 2 PCs and the other acts as a server so it's
just using the onboard video. Only spare cards I have to swap with are a 1MB PCI that's old as all hell (obviously) and a viper v550. The latter won't work and the former would require a spare PCI slot, which I don't have. Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : surely you could do a swap somewhere locally? "Bringer" wrote in message ... (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...r.intel.com/te chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer |
#7
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
I was meaning a local PC use group or some such.
"Bringer" wrote in message ... Unfortunatly no. Only have 2 PCs and the other acts as a server so it's just using the onboard video. Only spare cards I have to swap with are a 1MB PCI that's old as all hell (obviously) and a viper v550. The latter won't work and the former would require a spare PCI slot, which I don't have. Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : surely you could do a swap somewhere locally? "Bringer" wrote in message ... (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...r.intel.com/te chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer |
#8
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
To the average Joe around here a computer is some fantasy thing out of
one of those silent films. :P Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : I was meaning a local PC use group or some such. "Bringer" wrote in message ... Unfortunatly no. Only have 2 PCs and the other acts as a server so it's just using the onboard video. Only spare cards I have to swap with are a 1MB PCI that's old as all hell (obviously) and a viper v550. The latter won't work and the former would require a spare PCI slot, which I don't have. Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : surely you could do a swap somewhere locally? "Bringer" wrote in message ... (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...er.intel.com/t e chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer |
#9
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
Oh dear.
I'd send you an old spare except it woud cost me much more than the card is worth for the mail... (south pacific) Guess that makes you the local guru then Not much help sorry. "Bringer" wrote in message ... To the average Joe around here a computer is some fantasy thing out of one of those silent films. :P Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : I was meaning a local PC use group or some such. "Bringer" wrote in message ... Unfortunatly no. Only have 2 PCs and the other acts as a server so it's just using the onboard video. Only spare cards I have to swap with are a 1MB PCI that's old as all hell (obviously) and a viper v550. The latter won't work and the former would require a spare PCI slot, which I don't have. Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : surely you could do a swap somewhere locally? "Bringer" wrote in message ... (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...er.intel.com/t e chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer |
#10
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P4C800-E Delux Power-On Problems
Unfortunately, yes. Got to sarcasmlove/sarcasm the wonderful
assumption "oh you know computers, fix mine!" "Mercury" wrote in : Oh dear. I'd send you an old spare except it woud cost me much more than the card is worth for the mail... (south pacific) Guess that makes you the local guru then Not much help sorry. "Bringer" wrote in message ... To the average Joe around here a computer is some fantasy thing out of one of those silent films. :P Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : I was meaning a local PC use group or some such. "Bringer" wrote in message ... Unfortunatly no. Only have 2 PCs and the other acts as a server so it's just using the onboard video. Only spare cards I have to swap with are a 1MB PCI that's old as all hell (obviously) and a viper v550. The latter won't work and the former would require a spare PCI slot, which I don't have. Bringer "Mercury" wrote in : surely you could do a swap somewhere locally? "Bringer" wrote in message ... (Paul) wrote in : In article , Bringer wrote: I have a P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard here that refuses to power on when an my AGP card (PNY Geforce4 TI4400) is plugged in. When the card is unplugged the system will power on fine. The board has already been RMA'd once for this problem and they said it was a 'bad flash' so before I call them back and give them a royal piece of my mind I wanted to check here to see if anyone had any ideas what could be going on. So do anyone? Bringer Around the time of the P4B motherboard (S478/SDRAM), a circuit was added to the AGP slot, called "AGP_Warn". (AGP_Warn is the word printed right next to the circuit.) The logic for AGP_Warn says: IF (AGP_Card_Inserted & TYPEDET_Sez_3.3V_only_Video_Card) THEN stop_computer_from_powering_up That circuit prevents some really old, incorrectly keyed video cards from blowing up a 1.5V only Northbridge with 3.3 volts. The first round of implementations, included a Red LED next to the AGP slot. If the Red LED lit up, you then knew that a bad video card was being used. (And you also knew for sure, why the computer would not power up.) In the second round, the LED was removed to save cost. The word "AGP_Warn" could still be seen printed next to the AGP slot, so you knew the circuit was still there. You could not absolutely and for sure, know it was there, because the LED was not populated. There were still holes in the board for the LED. I had a look at my P4C800-E, and I really don't see any signs of the circuit. It could still be there, but just not placed on the motherboard in the same way as was done previously. (When the transistors for the circuit are spread around the board, it won't be possible to recognize the form of the circuit block any more.) In terms of the implementation, pg.50 of this doc shows the pinout. TYPEDET# signal is on pin 2A (I believe that is on the back side of the card). A proper modern video card should ground pin 2A. With an ohmmeter, you should see a direct short between pin 2A and 5A. http://web.archive.org/web/200303140...oper.intel.com /t e chnology/agp/downloads/agp30_final_10.pdf Now, some manufacturers have what are called "testability engineers". At the factory, these guys make sure the circuit board designs are modified, so that the circuit board can be tested. It appears that some of them have added a resistor to the video card, that runs from pin 2A to ground. If, when using the ohmmeter, you read a reasonably small but finite resistance (say 50 ohms to 150 ohms or so), it could be that was added for testing. But, what such a resistor can do, is foul up the Asus "AGP_Warn" circuit. Also, in cases other than Asus, I understand the inclusion of that resistor, has caused some motherboard AGP regulators, to produce voltages inappropriate for running the logic - AGP is supposed to be 1.5V or 3.3V, and a video card with a resistor on pin 2A, can cause the Vreg on the motherboard to deliver 2.x volts instead, which is good for neither purpose. So, before giving anyone heck, I would grab another AGP card and try it in the AGP slot. Not a 3.3V only card of course (it won't fit in the slot anyway). If another AGP card works, but the PNY continues to stop it, you can return the PNY for your money back (as an RMA is only going to give the same problem). If you own a multimeter, you could take a stab at measuring the resistance between pin 2A and 5A on the video card, to see if there is a dead short (as defined by the standard), or a low value resistor (as defined mistakenly by test engineering). Just a guess, Paul I had read this before, but the thing that has me ticked is they said it will work and it doesn't. The card can't be returned. It's a well used card I picked up years ago, and I honestly can't see the point of buying another card when I don't game anymore. That and the fact that at this point I can't afford to buy another card. According to the info on http://www.ertyu.org/ ~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html the card is keyed universally (1.5 and 3.3) so I can't see why it wouldn't work (unless, of course the agpwarn circuit is being tripped). Then that brings me to the question is there a way to bypass that circuit. Then again, if it is indeed the problem ASUS will get it from me for the simple fact they flat out lied to me. Just out of curiousity do other manufacturers implement this circuit? I've also got an abit ic7-g board and the card works fine in there so if that board has the circuit I'd gather there's something weird about the Asus implementation. At anyrate thanks for the lengthy explanation. I appreciate it if for nothing more than the educational value. Bringer |
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